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Thread: Toughness of Our Program

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartruff1 View Post
    Sure, there are a lot of things...keeping your composure and limiting turnovers against an aggressive physical defense...... rebounding....but in the end.... winning solves all problems...... "Just Win, Baby "
    So it really doesn't have much to do with being the biggest and meanest dude on the floor? It has to do with a focus on executing?
    'I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay… small acts of kindness and love.'
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  2. #52
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    Winning .....

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartruff1 View Post
    Winning .....
    Right, but the argument posited here earlier is that we don't win because we aren't tough. And we aren't tough because we don't win.
    'I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay… small acts of kindness and love.'
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  4. #54
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    I think that is called circular reasoning

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    Quote Originally Posted by kitzbuel View Post
    So it really doesn't have much to do with being the biggest and meanest dude on the floor? It has to do with a focus on executing?
    Or it could be defined as imposing your will on the opposing team in order to allow you to execute your gameplan as intended, instead of letting the other team out-fight you (physically & mentally) and screw up your flow.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartruff1 View Post
    I think that is called circular reasoning
    exactly
    'I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay… small acts of kindness and love.'
    - Gandalf the Grey

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  7. #57
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    The style that officials let the games flow in can be so variable as to whether it favors the toughest teams or the most skillful ones. I think we compose ourselves pretty well in both although its pretty obvious which type of game we do the best in. Much as I watch those BYU games in suspense for the safety of some of our players I think they've toughened us up quite a bit, and I don't think its unconnected that we became a better tournament team since they joined.

    I think our toughness is good not great. I wouldn't call us soft which may have been a fair charge a decade or so ago.

  8. #58
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    I don't think it's a question of 'toughness'. This program has been mentally, emotionally and physically tough for two decades, and has shown over and over again a willingness to do battle against the best teams, to turn games around, to put teams away. To discuss whether this team is 'tough' or not seems kind of silly to me.

    For me it has become more a matter of imposing our defensive will upon other teams, putting active pressure on their ball handlers to generate turnovers and get our fast break going, and IMO we don't do this as often as we need to in order to stay in games where the officials are clearly allowing this style of play. This seems to be occurring by design, by coaching or by recruiting, I'm not sure which. We put a premium on lengthy skilled players who can fill up the basket, but when was the last time we went after an undersized kid with a mean streak? Might do our defense some good.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by willandi View Post
    Aggressively lowering the other teams FT defensive percentage.
    If we made 80% of the FT's against Bama, that would include some 1 & 1, we probably beat them. Bama's FT defense was very good that night.

    THEN there isn't this talk about toughness.
    I'm laughing. Why aren't you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zagsfanforlife View Post
    At what point do we start to question the toughness of our program? Toughness in terms of being able to hang with an athletic, tough nosed, physical team that plays as hard or harder.

    WV 2018 (matthews last second winner)
    Tennessee 2018
    Florida state 2018
    Texas tech 2019
    Baylor 2021
    Duke 2021
    Alabama 2021

    All teams that were talented, but not as talented as GU, but more importantly in my eyes, were tough, played physical and roughed the zags up a bit. That was 6 losses off the top of my head I could remember. I’m sure there are more.

    Allow the zags to run their offense and its often Beethoven on the piano. Pure beauty. Push them around a little bit and problems seem to arise.

    Clearly there’s a certain type of team that gives us challenges. Is it a lack of toughness? Lack of motivation to get psyched up before games against these teams? The lack of physical strength that we have compared to these teams? Mental toughness? The type of athletes we are recruiting? Or just coincidence all these types teams have beat us?
    Maybe I can add a bit. We used to have big tough physical bigs, at least one, and you need at least one of these and we don't have him. The ACC and BIG 10 play this way and its a professional style of play. The ball is in the refs court in this regard. And when they let them bang they take us out of our game and forces us to shoot 3's and we havent been doing this and it also forces us to hit freethrows and we havent been doing this. Thats the problem with the one and done's which we are a lot now. They do not have mature bodies and cant bang with the guys that do. IE Seniors and even fifth year seniors. You would have thought Few would have addressed this problem as it was so obvious when we played Baylor for the National Title last year and he didn't. This was a major failing of his. We desperately needed a big banger. 6'8" or above and at least 240 with experience as a transfer. I think it all caught up to him. He had been getting great transfer guards for years and missed the boat on the transfer bigs. And this is still a problem.

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    Alright, the toughness thing got under my skin a little because I believe when you question the toughness of the program it’s an insult to the players and coaches and I think every team in America can point to a handful of games over 5 years where they wish they had them back while ignoring some good wins in that stretch, too.

    One thing that is fair to point out… our guards have been good but with the exception of Suggs last year, they’re not NBA players. So we are facing elite defenses with good but not necessarily great offensive backcourts. Our system can manufacture high percentage two point shots but it’s nice to have individual shot making, too. Someone like the Baylor guys last year who could stare you down and make a 3 in your face off the dribble. That’s not really our thing but when it gets late in close games and actions are taken away, you get late in the clock and need to make plays. Don’t get as many calls in those situations. We saw it for stretches against both Duke and Alabama. I’ll maintain we were a couple shots away from winning both those games, but our backcourts have mostly been Europe good—not quite NBA good. Just pointing that out.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheps001 View Post
    You would have thought Few would have addressed this problem as it was so obvious when we played Baylor for the National Title last year and he didn't. This was a major failing of his. We desperately needed a big banger. 6'8" or above and at least 240 with experience as a transfer.
    6'5" Mark Vital got 8 offensive rebounds on us. Are there any guys like that available? Ha ha.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by zagfan08 View Post
    our guards have been good but with the exception of Suggs last year, they’re not NBA players.
    Kispert and Ayayi, from last year, beg to differ.

    They aren't starters, like Suggs, but there are only two (or sometimes 3) starting guards on each NBA team.

    Go tell THEM that they aren't NBA guards. They will just laugh and laugh and laugh!

    Now Pangos is in the show too, Pargo HAS been, along with others. It is your opinion and you are welcome to have it, but the reality is a little bit different.
    I'm laughing. Why aren't you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoopaholic View Post
    And if you cant look at the high quality wins against top notched tough teams over the last 10 years than I cant help you see how the program has grown in toughness

    And I would suggest other “tough” programs have some stinker games do they suddenly become “non tough”………
    This!

    Truth is, both losses were very winnable. We are playing high octane teams. When you have a Shackelford situation and they jump out to a good lead then maintain a good distance it's a tough hole to dig out of. Down by 16 at half, got it down to 4 and lost by 9. They had the run this time, we might the next. This is college basketball and we are spoiled.
    One of the greatest stories in basketball history...Gonzaga!

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    Quote Originally Posted by willandi View Post
    Kispert and Ayayi, from last year, beg to differ.

    They aren't starters, like Suggs, but there are only two (or sometimes 3) starting guards on each NBA team.

    Go tell THEM that they aren't NBA guards. They will just laugh and laugh and laugh!

    Now Pangos is in the show too, Pargo HAS been, along with others. It is your opinion and you are welcome to have it, but the reality is a little bit different.
    Corey is a wing and unfortunately struggling so far. Pargo couldn’t stick in the league, Pangos is barely playing as a 29 year old rookie and Ayayi is barely playing on his second 2 way. Norvell couldn’t stick. Nigel is doing great in Europe but, again, is in Europe. I’m talking about NBA guards who play in the league. Just haven’t really had them—that’s the reality. All were still good in college but if we’re talking about beating pressure from top defensive teams, having elite talent is helpful!

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by zagfan08 View Post
    Corey is a wing and unfortunately struggling so far. Pargo couldn’t stick in the league, Pangos is barely playing as a 29 year old rookie and Ayayi is barely playing on his second 2 way. Norvell couldn’t stick. Nigel is doing great in Europe but, again, is in Europe. I’m talking about NBA guards who play in the league. Just haven’t really had them—that’s the reality. All were still good in college but if we’re talking about beating pressure from top defensive teams, having elite talent is helpful!
    Tell them! Man up, contact them on twitter or anywhere else and tell them that they aren't really NBA guards.

    Everybody here called Kispert a guard.
    I'm laughing. Why aren't you?

  17. #67
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    If they could play in the NBA....they would....

  18. #68
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    If being "tougher" this year means

    - making free throws
    - making good passes
    - making open 3's

    then yes we need to get tougher. I think some players have had their play brought into question which will light a fire. I guess we will see.
    Ihre Papiere bitte

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartruff1 View Post
    If they could play in the NBA....they would....
    They are.

    Last night, the 6th, Kispert had 10 on 4/6 - 2 /2 from 3.

    Very few have done that in the NBA, without playing in the NBA.
    Last edited by willandi; 12-07-2021 at 09:22 PM.
    I'm laughing. Why aren't you?

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