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Thread: Gonzaga vs Duke Post Game thoughts and analysis

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    Good analogy. Seeking extralegal advantage, outside the rules of the game. Tilting the playing field.
    And that's my point exactly. Even if this does influence refs, which I've read aren't influenced by being "worked," I don't perceive it as GU's way or Few's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daskim View Post
    And that's my point exactly. Even if this does influence refs, which I've read aren't influenced by being "worked," I don't perceive it as GU's way or Few's.
    That may be, and it’s Gonzaga’s loss if it is as it’s considered gamesmanship with no penalty. Right, I’m sure refs would admit needlenose’s icy glare has an effect. Nor his enormous power in the US basketball industry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    That may be, and it’s Gonzaga’s loss if it is as it’s considered gamesmanship with no penalty. Right, I’m sure refs would admit needlenose’s icy glare has an effect. Nor his enormous power in the US basketball industry.
    Having an effect is one thing. If any referee acts on it to the detrimental of unbiased refereeing, then it's time to clean house.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kyle dixon View Post
    Banchero is a stud. Leader. Watched him in layup lines before game and he was determined. Took Chet to the hole and drew a foul with the bucket. Dropped 20 on zags in first half. Gonna be a great player at next level. Great handles and can shoot and d up.

    Good kid. Visited gu twice if I recall. Very interested and then koach swooped in and nabbed him to Durham.
    We will see about his stardom at the next level. He is not athletic and does not like contact, that is 2 things going against him at the next level. Superstar as you say, or average player as I say.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by john montana View Post
    This game wasn’t about bad calls costing us the win. To me it came down to the sheer physicality of the Duke players, especially the guards. On defense Moore and Keels were up in our guards bodies the entire night. You could certainly say a lot of that action was fouls, but the refs made it clear they weren’t going to call that early on, and we needed to adjust. Keels in particularly used his strength to blow up our hand off action, and forced our offense to be remarkably one dimensional (high pick and roll) down the stretch. My guess is we are still early in the year, lots of new bodies, and don’t have as deep a playbook as we usually do…that hurt us. On our defensive end it was the same story to me. The Duke guards got hip on hip and outmuscled our guys to the rim time and time again, either getting buckets, or putting fouls on our bigs and Strawther. Truth is at this point in their careers, Williams is a better defensive anchor than Chet. For the most part Williams was able to slow/stop our interior efforts (but he picked up 4 fouls in the process) while Chet had moments, but got muscled around by John’s, Banchero and Williams (Keels too).

    I think the entire game came down to Duke’s physicality. We turned the ball over in large part due to that pressure (again…clearly COULD be called tighter…but it wasn’t. And the refs were pretty consistent in letting that body to body stuff go with one crazy exception on Keels late in the game for some reason) and on defense, Duke put us in a ton of tough positions through that same physicality.

    I don’t mind that loss one bit. Even while all of that was happening, we were a BANKED 3 pointer away (Joey Baker…seriously). If we just come up with a bucket here or there down the stretch, or Bolton gets one stop on Roach (by the way, this is where Banchero is so tough. Pulled Chet out of the paint and leaves Bolton on an island) and we probably win that game. I think it helps us develop.

    We need KP, BG and HS (at least 2/3) to develop quickly.
    If duke was so much more physcial than us, why did they shoot 14 more free throws than we did ? If we shoot 25 free throws like they did and only make 11 of them, we win.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    Nope, as noxious as K is, he’s not as despicable as the good old boy Beard.
    They are about the same to me.

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    Now that we've had a couple pages of blaming the refs, now we're apparently on to the "I'd rather lose than work the refs because that's not the GU way." Nice. Add in some shots at Texas Tech and Baylor and we've come full circle on the why we lost tropes. Has anyone mentioned the refs from the UNC title game? Are they all related? Conspiracy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB4 View Post
    Now that we've had a couple pages of blaming the refs, now we're apparently on to the "I'd rather lose than work the refs because that's not the GU way." Nice. Add in some shots at Texas Tech and Baylor and we've come full circle on the why we lost tropes. Has anyone mentioned the refs from the UNC title game? Are they all related? Conspiracy?
    nope, college basketball, like college football and world soccer and the Olympics (etc. etc. etc.) are fair, just and pure expressions of athletic competition and all that money and power fortunately works only to support this truth.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOtherGreatOne View Post
    If duke was so much more physcial than us, why did they shoot 14 more free throws than we did ? If we shoot 25 free throws like they did and only make 11 of them, we win.
    Duke was on the move. Several times the reach or grab was because the Zag player was being beat.

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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB4 View Post
    Now we're apparently on to the "I'd rather lose than work the refs because that's not the GU way." Nice. Add in some shots at Texas Tech and Baylor and we've come full circle on the why we lost tropes. Has anyone mentioned the refs from the UNC title game? Are they all related? Conspiracy?
    Pretty much a mischaracterization of those posts. You seem to equate refraining from "working the refs," whatever that means, with losing. Hardly the point being made.

    There is no problem with identifying issues with players, pointing out possible fouls that the refs have missed, etc. That's different than "working the refs" by attempting intimidation, profanity, etc.

    Can't remember any game GU has lost in recent years (and they haven't lost many) where there was any, ANY concrete evidence of some conspiracy by the refs to throw the game against Gonzaga.

    Don't see a problem with coaches that testing refs to see if they can build equity. Hall of Fame coaches are known masters at this. But some coaches go way more than that particularly in college basketball, and many would prefer that our coaches don't.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by daskim View Post
    Pretty much a mischaracterization of those posts. You seem to equate refraining from "working the refs," whatever that means, with losing. Hardly the point being made.

    There is no problem with identifying issues with players, pointing out possible fouls that the refs have missed, etc. That's different than "working the refs" by attempting intimidation, profanity, etc.

    Can't remember any game GU has lost in recent years (and they haven't lost many) where there was any, ANY concrete evidence of some conspiracy by the refs to throw the game against Gonzaga.

    Don't see a problem with coaches that testing refs to see if they can build equity. Hall of Fame coaches are known masters at this. But some coaches go way more than that particularly in college basketball, and many would prefer that our coaches don't.
    Conspiracy, maybe not but there were a couple of missed calls, foot out of bounds etc., that DID affect the game. Conspiracy? Who knows, but blatant missed calls at a turning point happened.
    I'm laughing. Why aren't you?

  12. #112
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    I don't think we are talking about conspiracy theories. We're talking about calls that have influenced losses by Gonzaga. You mention the North Carolina game. If you remember that game, Collings, or back up center, was having a great game. And low in behold in the second half the begins to pick up fouls and fouls out with plenty of time left in the game. His being fouled out was huge because UNC could not contain him. Also in the UNC game the play where UNC scored the winning basket with under a minute to go. The ball is going out of bounds and UNC's center goes diving for the ball and according to the refs the player saves it, and UVC makes the winning basket...The replay shows the UNC player was clearly out of bounds.
    Go Zags!!! The Best Is Yet To Come!!!

  13. #113
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    I agree, and I even have a photograph of the UNC player with his hand on the OOB line. But how would working the refs in any way have caused those calls to be reversed?

    In any case, it's hard to really discuss this topic without really getting an accepted definition of what is proper, ethical and accepted "working the refs," and what isn't.

  14. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by daskim View Post
    I agree, and I even have a photograph of the UNC player with his hand on the OOB line. But how would working the refs in any way have caused those calls to be reversed?

    In any case, it's hard to really discuss this topic without really getting an accepted definition of what is proper, ethical and accepted "working the refs," and what isn't.
    It would be like the photo of the hand inside the rim on a block by a UNC fan. Calls are missed both ways.

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  15. #115
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    ESPN's college basketball team of Myron Medcalf, Jeff Borzello, John Gasaway and Joe Lunardi weigh in GU-Duke game. For what it's worth.

    Decent discussion of players and teams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOtherGreatOne View Post
    We will see about his stardom at the next level. He is not athletic and does not like contact, that is 2 things going against him at the next level. Superstar as you say, or average player as I say.
    Can’t let this go without at least pointing out this is a ridiculous statement. Don’t think he minded contact too much going thru Chet for the and-1 and Chet’s second foul. He has high level shot creation skills that will translate to success in the league. Athleticism is fine. He’s very good—not sure about NBA superstar but to say an average player… disagree there. He will be drafted first most likely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    When it came to working the refs, it was golf claps vs Big Bertha.
    How true.
    I was sitting a couple of rows behind the Duke bench. Every time out, Coach K was working the refs. Late in the second quarter, during one time out with the Zags coming on strong, K called a time out and never huddled with his players. He spent the entire timeout pumping a ref.

    Another time, two of his assistants did the same thing.
    In the second half, the refs made it a point to stay clear of the Duke bench during timeouts.

    Without a doubt it had an impact on calls.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbiased View Post
    How true.
    I was sitting a couple of rows behind the Duke bench. Every time out, Coach K was working the refs. Late in the second quarter, during one time out with the Zags coming on strong, K called a time out and never huddled with his players. He spent the entire timeout pumping a ref.

    Another time, two of his assistants did the same thing.
    In the second half, the refs made it a point to stay clear of the Duke bench during timeouts.

    Without a doubt it had an impact on calls.
    QED. Thank you

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    QED. Thank you
    Two types of games theory…Finite and Infinite.

    Few coaches on a Finite level. Nothing wrong with it. As a matter of belief there is a ton that’s good about it. It’s just the the Finite play will always be at a disadvantage to the Infinite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coolhandzag View Post
    Two types of games theory…Finite and Infinite.

    Few coaches on a Finite level. Nothing wrong with it. As a matter of belief there is a ton that’s good about it. It’s just the the Finite play will always be at a disadvantage to the Infinite.
    I have no idea what this means, but I agree with it.

  21. #121
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    To me, these losses fall into the same category. The other teams have guards who get in our guards' faces and put their hands on them as soon as we get in the half court, then arm bar them when they drive or reach in and dislodge the ball. Some of this contact is foul-worthy, some it is not, but it disrupts our timing and creates steals and turnovers. You have to be very 'crafty' (pun is intentional) to get away with it regularly. This seemed like the year we would have the physical guards and depth to dish some of this out ourselves, but that would have to be a choice from the coaching staff. I'm looking forward to seeing Dom back on the court.




    The amazing thing is that despite the huge discrepancy in steals and turnovers in this year's game, we only lost by 3. Fix this issue with the guards and we might be 10 points better than them.
    Last edited by scrooner; 11-29-2021 at 09:34 AM.

  22. #122
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    Duke is the current number 1 team. If Nembhard has a typical game, we win. A couple fewer to’s and we win. A couple threes drop and we win.

    Against the current number 1 team, mind you, all while playing a lot of freshmen.

    Not concerned.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    I have no idea what this means, but I agree with it.
    It wasn't intended to make me look smarter than I really am. That's not too hard to do.......

    It just means that Koach considers using his cache of clout to influence the officials as best he can. If he could get away with playing six.....he would. Few would not.

    It should be expected. It's frustrating to some because a level playing court is expected. A travel is a travel....a charge is a charge? I don't blame people for that. I'd like that....but that's not the reality when you play Duke. Duke will get away with playing more physical whereas the Zags will not. It is what it is and you have to find a way to deal with it when you play Duke.

    Insider tip....never met a live fan base complain about officiating more....crazy. Seriously. Banchero could have committed armed robbery at the MGM in broad daylight with half a dozen cameras on him. The woman next to me would swear on a bible he was knitting scarves.

    My guts tell me the Zags get 'em if they meet in the bracket.

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    I agree with your explanation - great writing by the way.

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    I absolutely despise blaming refs.

    We lost the 2017 title, not because the ref missed the baseline out-of-bounds, but because of a dozen other plays that gave up the lead, including Karnowski missing bunnies from a poked eye in the SC game. Likewise, we lose to Duke because our shots didn't fall, and theirs did, including a bank 3 (like the Tennessee game). Like the Baylor game Duke played physical, and our guys didn't respond. After Baylor, I continue to wonder why Timme didn't spend the summer in the weight room. The Duke game made him pay for that. Paolo was a monster, and he had a supporting cast of two other physical specimens of human perfection.

    Stop blaming the refs and accept, on that night, Duke was the better team, if even by a hair.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reborn View Post
    Go Zags!!!

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