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Thread: One Thing I Don't Get RE: Re-alignment & the Big East

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagDad84 View Post

    IMO The real issues are the increased time away from school and playing half your games 2 & 3 time zones away.

    ZagDad

    Totally agree and it’s a step down for most other sports like soccer and baseball. Really just better competition for the men’s basketball team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bdmiller7 View Post
    Totally agree and itís a step down for most other sports like soccer and baseball. Really just better competition for the menís basketball team.
    Soccer and baseball generate how much revenue each year?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagceo View Post
    Soccer and baseball generate how much revenue each year?
    Yup...basketball is Gonzaga's football; it made the school and continues to lead the way. Why wouldn't all other sports revolve around it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bdmiller7 View Post
    Totally agree and it’s a step down for most other sports like soccer and baseball. Really just better competition for the men’s basketball team.
    Without BYU, I think Wbb would be a small step up but conference championships would be rare.

    In looking at the other sports, and without any research, maybe track and field, and cross country might be a push, but it would likely be a step down in baseball, golf, soccer, volleyball, rowing and tennis.

    Interesting fact, Creighton actually participates in the WCC in rowing.

    ZagDad

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    Maybe naÔve question, but how difficult would it really be to add Football, build facilities and join the Pac 12 in 10 years?
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDC84 View Post
    I mean, when Mercer beat Duke in the 1st round several years ago, the nation celebrated like it was new year's eve. That would never occur in college football.
    True, but if Mercer beat Alabama in football, that might get a rise out of people

    ZagDad

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagceo View Post
    This link shows a 12 year deal that ends in 2025. and ranks them in top 10 lucrative contracts including some football contracts.

    https://www.therichest.com/luxury/th...-tv-contracts/
    Football is a completely different sport from college basketball, and it's economics are different. The tournament makes way more money than people think. The tourney is a huge money maker. The tourney has a huge viewing audience. It's college basketball that is losing money hand over fist with their deal with the Big East. I know this thru someone who has ties to the Big East. In college basketball "the little guy" is viewed completely differently than in college football. I mean, Central Florida is the second biggest university in the nation (in terms of students), and yet college football fans view them as a pain in the butt. Whereas the casual college basketball fan who participates in these office pools and bets in Vegas love teams like Central Florida, Louisiana Tech, Akron, etc., because picking the upsets is a huge part of the thrill of gambling and watching the event. I mean, when Mercer beat Duke in the 1st round several years ago, the nation celebrated like it was new year's eve. That would never occur in college football.

    I will say it once and I will say it again: CBS/Turner loves the tournament EXACTLY how it is. They do not want to change a thing. The NCAA are their slaves. And Gonzaga has proven with their sweet 16 streak that you do not need to be in a power conference to have great tournament success and recruit with the big boys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagDad84 View Post
    True, but if Mercer beat Alabama in football, that might get a rise out of people

    ZagDad
    What are the odds of that happening? Zilch. I also don't feel Alabama football is hated as much as Duke basketball.

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    Several posters have mentioned the increase in costs as a reason for not joining the Big East in it's current configuration. So, I decided to make way too many assumptions and see if the rough numbers pencil out.

    Increase in Income

    ASSUMPTION: I assumed the only increase in income would come from the Big East TV Package while in reality, income from the NCAA tournament would likely be higher than the WCC but since GU gets too keep a larger portion of their NCAA Income, I called it NCAA tournament winnings a push for Gonzaga.

    CALCULATION:

    Number of Big East Conference Teams with GU = 12: TV Package = $41,000,000/Yr: Assuming even distribution of TV revenue = +$3,416,667 per year in revenue for GU.

    INCREASE IN EXPENSES:

    ASSUMPTIONS:
    - All calculations assume a 20 game Big East schedule, 10 home games and 10 away games
    - Mbb AND Wbb charter to Big East away games
    - Cost of charter per operating hour = $4,000/Hr (Assume base cost of charter is the same only the flight cost varies)
    - Average Increase in Flight time 4 Hrs/Game Increase in other expenses (lodging, meals, etc.) = $1,000/game
    - Gonzaga has a total of 12 non-basketball sports that I assume fly commercial to their away games.
    - The various sports have a large variance in the number of student athletes shown on the rosters. Large teams I limited travel squads to 25 people + 5 staff
    - Cross Country I limited to 15 members + 5 staff per team
    - All other sports I used the entire listed roster + 5 Staff.
    - Total number of student athletes and staff are 331, 123 men, 138 women and 70 staff (14 sports x 5 staff/sport)
    - I assumed the commercial flights would have a round trip increase of $200/ticket to fly to the Big East games versus the WCC away games.
    - For Non-Flight expenses I allowed $1,000 per game for teams with 20 or fewer members & $2,000/game for teams with more than 20 members.

    CALCULATIONS:

    Increased Expenses for Mbb & Wbb
    - Increase in Flight Costs - 20 games x 4 Hrs/game x $4,000/Hr = $320,000
    - Increase in Non-Flight Costs = 20 games x $1,000/game = $20,000

    Total Increase in Basketball expenses = $320,000 + $20,000 = $340,000

    Increased Expenses for non-basketball sports:
    - Increase in Flight Costs - 331 student athletes and staff x 10 games x $200/ticket = $662,000
    - Increase in Non-Flight Costs (small teams) = 7 sports x 10 games/sport x $1,000/game = $70,000
    - Increase in Non-Flight Costs (large teams) = 7 sports x 10 games/sport x $2,000/game = $140,000

    Total Increase in Non-Basketball Expenses = $662,000 + $70,000 + $140,000 = $872,000

    Total Increase in Athletic Expenses by Joining the Big East = $340,000 + $872,000 = $1,212,000

    It certainly appears that the increase in revenue ($3.41 million) far exceeds the incremental increase in expenses ($1.2 million).

    Remember that this is only the incremental differences in costs between 10 away games in the WCC and 10 away games in the Big East. It certainly does not have any reference to the athletic budgets for each team, the costs associated with non-conference schedules, etc. which obviously were assumed to the same in both instances. It also assumes the same number of nights in each case are the same which certainly may not be the case, particularly in the non-basketball sports that have to fly commercial. There may easily be more hotels and meals in flying to and from the East Cost than from the West Coast. I do not see the added cost for these additional nights and meals consuming even half of the $2.2 million difference between the increase in revenue and the increase in expenses.

    This whole analysis assumes that most or all of the increase in revenue ($3.41 million) goes into the general athletic budget even though the vast majority of the income will have been earned by or off of the Mbb team. Anyway, it does not appear that "expenses" is a reason for not joining the Big East.

    However, all of the other reasons noted above in previous posts; more missed school, traveling 2-3 time zones for every conference away game, etc. still apply and may provide (and likely do) more than sufficient justification for not joining the Big East.

    ZagDad

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    Quote Originally Posted by CDC84 View Post
    What are the odds of that happening? Zilch. I also don't feel Alabama football is hated as much as Duke basketball.
    What were the odds of Mercer beating Duke? Maybe not Zilch, but not to far off of it.

    How long has Coach K been at Duke, 40 years? Give Alabama Football (or even SEC football) another 20-30 years of the continued success of the past 7 years or so and then we will see what the level of hatred becomes.

    ZagDad

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagDad84 View Post
    Several posters have mentioned the increase in costs as a reason for not joining the Big East in it's current configuration. So, I decided to make way too many assumptions and see if the rough numbers pencil out.

    Increase in Income

    ASSUMPTION: I assumed the only increase in income would come from the Big East TV Package while in reality, income from the NCAA tournament would likely be higher than the WCC but since GU gets too keep a larger portion of their NCAA Income, I called it NCAA tournament winnings a push for Gonzaga.

    CALCULATION:

    Number of Big East Conference Teams with GU = 12: TV Package = $41,000,000/Yr: Assuming even distribution of TV revenue = +$3,416,667 per year in revenue for GU.

    INCREASE IN EXPENSES:

    ASSUMPTIONS:
    - All calculations assume a 20 game Big East schedule, 10 home games and 10 away games
    - Mbb AND Wbb charter to Big East away games
    - Cost of charter per operating hour = $4,000/Hr (Assume base cost of charter is the same only the flight cost varies)
    - Average Increase in Flight time 4 Hrs/Game Increase in other expenses (lodging, meals, etc.) = $1,000/game
    - Gonzaga has a total of 12 non-basketball sports that I assume fly commercial to their away games.
    - The various sports have a large variance in the number of student athletes shown on the rosters. Large teams I limited travel squads to 25 people + 5 staff
    - Cross Country I limited to 15 members + 5 staff per team
    - All other sports I used the entire listed roster + 5 Staff.
    - Total number of student athletes and staff are 331, 123 men, 138 women and 70 staff (14 sports x 5 staff/sport)
    - I assumed the commercial flights would have a round trip increase of $200/ticket to fly to the Big East games versus the WCC away games.
    - For Non-Flight expenses I allowed $1,000 per game for teams with 20 or fewer members & $2,000/game for teams with more than 20 members.

    CALCULATIONS:

    Increased Expenses for Mbb & Wbb
    - Increase in Flight Costs - 20 games x 4 Hrs/game x $4,000/Hr = $320,000
    - Increase in Non-Flight Costs = 20 games x $1,000/game = $20,000

    Total Increase in Basketball expenses = $320,000 + $20,000 = $340,000

    Increased Expenses for non-basketball sports:
    - Increase in Flight Costs - 331 student athletes and staff x 10 games x $200/ticket = $662,000
    - Increase in Non-Flight Costs (small teams) = 7 sports x 10 games/sport x $1,000/game = $70,000
    - Increase in Non-Flight Costs (large teams) = 7 sports x 10 games/sport x $2,000/game = $140,000

    Total Increase in Non-Basketball Expenses = $662,000 + $70,000 + $140,000 = $872,000

    Total Increase in Athletic Expenses by Joining the Big East = $340,000 + $872,000 = $1,212,000

    It certainly appears that the increase in revenue ($3.41 million) far exceeds the incremental increase in expenses ($1.2 million).

    Remember that this is only the incremental differences in costs between 10 away games in the WCC and 10 away games in the Big East. It certainly does not have any reference to the athletic budgets for each team, the costs associated with non-conference schedules, etc. which obviously were assumed to the same in both instances. It also assumes the same number of nights in each case are the same which certainly may not be the case, particularly in the non-basketball sports that have to fly commercial. There may easily be more hotels and meals in flying to and from the East Cost than from the West Coast. I do not see the added cost for these additional nights and meals consuming even half of the $2.2 million difference between the increase in revenue and the increase in expenses.

    This whole analysis assumes that most or all of the increase in revenue ($3.41 million) goes into the general athletic budget even though the vast majority of the income will have been earned by or off of the Mbb team. Anyway, it does not appear that "expenses" is a reason for not joining the Big East.

    However, all of the other reasons noted above in previous posts; more missed school, traveling 2-3 time zones for every conference away game, etc. still apply and may provide (and likely do) more than sufficient justification for not joining the Big East.

    ZagDad
    What is the current revenue that Gonzaga brings in? I don't think it is $3.42M, but shouldn't the current amount be deducted from that amount to show the actual increase in monies?
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    Quote Originally Posted by willandi View Post
    What is the current revenue that Gonzaga brings in? I don't think it is $3.42M, but shouldn't the current amount be deducted from that amount to show the actual increase in monies?
    The $3.42M is only the Big East TV revenue divided over 12 teams based on their current contract.

    Yes, Gonzaga's portion of the WCC's TV contract revenue should be subtracted from this amount. The WCC signed a "landmark" Media rights agreement with ESPN and CBS sports in September, 2019.

    The agreement calls for ESPN to televise up to 34 Mbb games and CBS Sports to televise up to 9 Mbb games. ESPN's 34 game package includes 17 games during the regular season, and the quarterfinals, semifinals and championship game of the WCC tournament. In addition the Wbb WCC championship game is also to be televised along with a selection of other Olympic sports.

    The WCC Commissioner's statement on the agreement is as follows:

    “We are thrilled to continue our long-standing relationship with ESPN and begin a new partnership with CBS Sports,” WCC Commissioner Gloria Nevarez said. “The agreements with ESPN and CBS give the West Coast Conference unprecedented national exposure. We are grateful for the outstanding support from our national television partners and are very excited to showcase the WCC as a premier men’s basketball conference on these national platforms."

    You can read the press release here: https://wccsports.com/news/2019/9/19...greements.aspx

    No mention of any compensation, just exposure.

    Yes, if the WCC receives any TV revenue for their conference games and tournament and if the conference distributes such revenue to their member schools, Gonzaga's portion should be deducted from the $3.42M. If I could find the value of the WCC media rights agreement and Gonzaga's portion of that TV revenue, I would have included in the above analysis.

    ZagDad
    Last edited by ZagDad84; 09-15-2021 at 01:57 PM.

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    Thank you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDC84 View Post
    No one should be added due to BYU's departure. I don't care about the uneven schedule. Any team that could be added would weaken the WCC.

    The Big East is losing money hand over fist with their FOX deal. There is simply no substitute for having half your games on ESPN and others on CBS.

    Anything that Mike Roth said or didn't say about GU joining the MWC, the BE, etc., was just to better their deal within the WCC.

    The power 5 leagues and the BE are not going to break off and form their own basketball tourney. 25% of all US office workers participate in a pool. Those pools are fueled by gambling and teams like Morehead State, Mercer, and North Dakota State being in the dance. TV calls the shots, and TV likes the tournament exactly as it is. It's pretty close to perfect.
    As a SDSU fan we would love to have Gonzaga in our conference, turn it into a couple of divisions where we play some 14 division/conference games per year. Travel for y'all, not even an issue. You end up in a division where you play SDSU, UNR, UNLV, Fresno St, and SJSU twice per year while adding 4 of the following: Boise St, Colorado St, New Mexico, Wyoming, Utah St and Air Force. Tell me that playing your WCC schedule without BYU matches that. I have to add that UNR, BSU and CSU have improved their programs. UNLV and UNM may have finally hired good head coaches. SJSU is starting to spend money on their athletics and hired Tim Miles. If he isn't going there to retire that is a good hire. You play in arenas rather than gyms. Air Force would be the smallest venue at some 5,800.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagDad84 View Post
    Several posters have mentioned the increase in costs as a reason for not joining the Big East in it's current configuration. So, I decided to make way too many assumptions and see if the rough numbers pencil out.

    Increase in Income

    ASSUMPTION: I assumed the only increase in income would come from the Big East TV Package while in reality, income from the NCAA tournament would likely be higher than the WCC but since GU gets too keep a larger portion of their NCAA Income, I called it NCAA tournament winnings a push for Gonzaga.

    CALCULATION:

    Number of Big East Conference Teams with GU = 12: TV Package = $41,000,000/Yr: Assuming even distribution of TV revenue = +$3,416,667 per year in revenue for GU.

    INCREASE IN EXPENSES:

    ASSUMPTIONS:
    - All calculations assume a 20 game Big East schedule, 10 home games and 10 away games
    - Mbb AND Wbb charter to Big East away games
    - Cost of charter per operating hour = $4,000/Hr (Assume base cost of charter is the same only the flight cost varies)
    - Average Increase in Flight time 4 Hrs/Game Increase in other expenses (lodging, meals, etc.) = $1,000/game
    - Gonzaga has a total of 12 non-basketball sports that I assume fly commercial to their away games.
    - The various sports have a large variance in the number of student athletes shown on the rosters. Large teams I limited travel squads to 25 people + 5 staff
    - Cross Country I limited to 15 members + 5 staff per team
    - All other sports I used the entire listed roster + 5 Staff.
    - Total number of student athletes and staff are 331, 123 men, 138 women and 70 staff (14 sports x 5 staff/sport)
    - I assumed the commercial flights would have a round trip increase of $200/ticket to fly to the Big East games versus the WCC away games.
    - For Non-Flight expenses I allowed $1,000 per game for teams with 20 or fewer members & $2,000/game for teams with more than 20 members.

    CALCULATIONS:

    Increased Expenses for Mbb & Wbb
    - Increase in Flight Costs - 20 games x 4 Hrs/game x $4,000/Hr = $320,000
    - Increase in Non-Flight Costs = 20 games x $1,000/game = $20,000

    Total Increase in Basketball expenses = $320,000 + $20,000 = $340,000

    Increased Expenses for non-basketball sports:
    - Increase in Flight Costs - 331 student athletes and staff x 10 games x $200/ticket = $662,000
    - Increase in Non-Flight Costs (small teams) = 7 sports x 10 games/sport x $1,000/game = $70,000
    - Increase in Non-Flight Costs (large teams) = 7 sports x 10 games/sport x $2,000/game = $140,000

    Total Increase in Non-Basketball Expenses = $662,000 + $70,000 + $140,000 = $872,000

    Total Increase in Athletic Expenses by Joining the Big East = $340,000 + $872,000 = $1,212,000

    It certainly appears that the increase in revenue ($3.41 million) far exceeds the incremental increase in expenses ($1.2 million).

    Remember that this is only the incremental differences in costs between 10 away games in the WCC and 10 away games in the Big East. It certainly does not have any reference to the athletic budgets for each team, the costs associated with non-conference schedules, etc. which obviously were assumed to the same in both instances. It also assumes the same number of nights in each case are the same which certainly may not be the case, particularly in the non-basketball sports that have to fly commercial. There may easily be more hotels and meals in flying to and from the East Cost than from the West Coast. I do not see the added cost for these additional nights and meals consuming even half of the $2.2 million difference between the increase in revenue and the increase in expenses.

    This whole analysis assumes that most or all of the increase in revenue ($3.41 million) goes into the general athletic budget even though the vast majority of the income will have been earned by or off of the Mbb team. Anyway, it does not appear that "expenses" is a reason for not joining the Big East.

    However, all of the other reasons noted above in previous posts; more missed school, traveling 2-3 time zones for every conference away game, etc. still apply and may provide (and likely do) more than sufficient justification for not joining the Big East.

    ZagDad
    From everything I’ve followed about this, going back to the MWC talks a couple years ago, Gonzaga would jump at an invite to the BE. It is the BE schools who have no desire increasing their expenses and traveling across the country just to include us.

    I remember a report from someone (can’t remember who) that stated Mark Few was all about it and said we have a private jet and have no problem flying to those venues. Mike Roth stated our side is not the issue. The other schools don’t want to fly over here for conference games. Any one else remember this being stated? I’ll try to find it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy outgo lifer View Post
    From everything I’ve followed about this, going back to the MWC talks a couple years ago, Gonzaga would jump at an invite to the BE. It is the BE schools who have no desire increasing their expenses and traveling across the country just to include us.

    I remember a report from someone (can’t remember who) that stated Mark Few was all about it and said we have a private jet and have no problem flying to those venues. Mike Roth stated our side is not the issue. The other schools don’t want to fly over here for conference games. Any one else remember this being stated? I’ll try to find it.
    It is all the other sports too, not just basketball.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy outgo lifer View Post
    From everything Iíve followed about this, going back to the MWC talks a couple years ago, Gonzaga would jump at an invite to the BE. It is the BE schools who have no desire increasing their expenses and traveling across the country just to include us.

    I remember a report from someone (canít remember who) that stated Mark Few was all about it and said we have a private jet and have no problem flying to those venues. Mike Roth stated our side is not the issue. The other schools donít want to fly over here for conference games. Any one else remember this being stated? Iíll try to find it.
    Yeah as I pointed out at the top of the thread the travel burden falls mainly on the Zags. We'd be asking each conference member to travel across country once for each sport, while Gonzaga's programs would be the ones that needed to do all the traveling for half their schedule. I have a hard time understanding why the other universities would be so pissy about one cross-country trip for each program; at most you'd be maybe doubling or tripling the cost of one trip. Unless their schools are on shoestring budgets, is it really that much worse? If Hawaii can find a way to do it in the Big West, a conference with a decidedly smaller budget, why couldn't the Big East? Hell, Hawaii's trips are at least 6 hours to the coast minimum!

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    Quote Originally Posted by strikenowhere View Post
    Yeah as I pointed out at the top of the thread the travel burden falls mainly on the Zags. We'd be asking each conference member to travel across country once for each sport, while Gonzaga's programs would be the ones that needed to do all the traveling for half their schedule. I have a hard time understanding why the other universities would be so pissy about one cross-country trip for each program; at most you'd be maybe doubling or tripling the cost of one trip. Unless their schools are on shoestring budgets, is it really that much worse? If Hawaii can find a way to do it in the Big West, a conference with a decidedly smaller budget, why couldn't the Big East? Hell, Hawaii's trips are at least 6 hours to the coast minimum!
    One word: provincialism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strikenowhere View Post
    Yeah as I pointed out at the top of the thread the travel burden falls mainly on the Zags. We'd be asking each conference member to travel across country once for each sport, while Gonzaga's programs would be the ones that needed to do all the traveling for half their schedule. I have a hard time understanding why the other universities would be so pissy about one cross-country trip for each program; at most you'd be maybe doubling or tripling the cost of one trip. Unless their schools are on shoestring budgets, is it really that much worse? If Hawaii can find a way to do it in the Big West, a conference with a decidedly smaller budget, why couldn't the Big East? Hell, Hawaii's trips are at least 6 hours to the coast minimum!
    There is more than just one trip from those teams to Spokane...you have WBB too as well as all the other non-revenue sports that must be considered. Unless you have a designated conference in which they can play as there is no benefit for the WCC to keep them.

    More importantly, what is the "win" for those east coast teams wanting GU? They do not need us to improve their quality of basketball...they are a multi-team conference for the Dance...they make enough money as they see it from their own TV contract...why invite another team to share in their spoils.

    It has to be a "win-win" for both parties and unless there is a dam breaking with tons of money somewhere just when GU joins the league it just isn't as feasible as many on here think.

    Would I like for GU to get invited to the BE - YES but just don't see how it is a financial benefit for the BE east coast teams...

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    Quote Originally Posted by krozman View Post
    Maybe naÔve question, but how difficult would it really be to add Football, build facilities and join the Pac 12 in 10 years?
    Not sure if you’re joking but San Diego St is building a new football stadium that seats just 35000, which would be smaller than any PAC 12 school other than WSU and that bill is supposedly $310 million.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy outgo lifer View Post
    From everything I’ve followed about this, going back to the MWC talks a couple years ago, Gonzaga would jump at an invite to the BE. It is the BE schools who have no desire increasing their expenses and traveling across the country just to include us.

    I remember a report from someone (can’t remember who) that stated Mark Few was all about it and said we have a private jet and have no problem flying to those venues. Mike Roth stated our side is not the issue. The other schools don’t want to fly over here for conference games. Any one else remember this being stated? I’ll try to find it.
    This is true.

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    Gonzaga is just waiting for that next opportunity and it will likely will coincide with tv contract updates which will make it feasible for them to go to the BE or MWC or another conference. ESPN has been very supportive of Gonzaga and I think within the next year we will get news on that. The money and amount of exposure need to be right to enable this. The BE will make some moves because they know this is about survival and relevance. It is also basketball only which makes getting top dollars as a conference more difficult. I think if BE adds Gonzaga that would be worth an extra few hundred million dollars. Everyone knows about Gonzaga and the brand is as strong as it has ever been. I donít think the extra travel time is going to be the top decision point. We are talking about 18-22 year olds. They can do this in their sleep and bounce back much quicker than the alums��

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    So, if GU plays 10 road games in the BE that would be 5 cross-country road trips (less cross-country if traveling to a BE-West). How many cross-country OOC trips have they made in recent years, 2 or 3 per season? If playing the BE, the OOC games could perhaps be western schools, to minimize total travel. I don’t know whether they are enough holiday season tourneys in the west to avoid tourney travel.

    Seems a shame, though, if GU has outgrown the WCC, because the fit is otherwise good in so many ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bdmiller7 View Post
    Not sure if you’re joking but San Diego St is building a new football stadium that seats just 35000, which would be smaller than any PAC 12 school other than WSU and that bill is supposedly $310 million.
    so we bulldoze 4 more blocks of the Logan Neighborhood and get it done. The fact that it's a 500 million dollar money problem is far easier than "finding the right fit" in an era where conference realignment is ever changing. Yes I realize I'm also still being very naÔve but in my brain I can solve money problems far easier than what you guys keep going on about.
    Krozman
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    Quote Originally Posted by krozman View Post
    Maybe naÔve question, but how difficult would it really be to add Football, build facilities and join the Pac 12 in 10 years?
    Aside from an actual football program, GU would have to change its entire academic profile to be one of a research university.
    History has its eyes on you.

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