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Thread: All time starting 5 (do you agree with Raftery?)

  1. #1
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    Default All time starting 5 (do you agree with Raftery?)

    During the season opener against Kansas, I got this text. Adam Amin and Bill Raftery were calling the game, and they put of a photo of Gonzaga's alltime starting 5 .... Rui Hachimura, Domantas Sabonis, Kelly Olynyk, John Stockton and Adam Morrison. When I answered the text the next day, I said I'd go with Jalen Suggs over Kelly Olynyk (this was one day into Jalen's Gonzaga career). I never saw Frank Burgess play, and believe he needs to be in the conversation.

    So I ask ... who's your alltime starting 5 for GU? Do you agree with Raftery and Amin?


    "To be continued ....."
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    NCAA TOURNAMENT wins since 2015
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  2. #2
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    The tough thing about this question is the answer differs greatly if you're basing it on total contributions to the Zags, Gonzaga peak, total career including pro, or career peak.

    If we're talking their Gonzaga peak, I can't speak to anybody pre-99, so I'd have to say:

    Suggs (though Stockton probably fits here if I'd watched him play)
    Dickau
    Morrison
    Sabonis
    Karnowski (with apologies to Ronny)

  3. #3
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    Suggs
    NWG
    Morrison
    Holmgren
    Sabonis
    Bring back the OCC

  4. #4
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    IMHO...Suggs was a better college player than Stockton......now here is the heresy ......Suggs was a better college player than Burgess...

    Jalen was bigger, stronger, more athletic .....more competitive on both offense and defense.... they simply could not make the blocks and passes he could.....and he led the team to a historic level....and the exclamation point was the SHOT....

    I did see both Frank and John play ....a lot...Frank was a classmate and friend and so was Jack....
    Last edited by bartruff1; 04-21-2021 at 08:19 AM.

  5. #5
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    I'd start with the jerseys in the rafters.

  6. #6
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    The Bonus and five guys and gals from the cafeteria.

  7. #7
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    1) Erroll Knight
    2) Erroll Knght
    3) Erroll Knght
    4) Erroll Knght
    5) Erroll Knght

  8. #8
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    Stockton
    Suggs
    Morrison
    Sabonis
    Olynyk/Hachimura

  9. #9

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    Stockton
    Dickau
    Ammo
    Sabonis
    Olynyk

    2nd team:
    Suggs
    Williams-Goss
    Kispert
    Rui
    Clarke

    Timme could be on this list very easily, just don't know who to take out. Santangelo, Frahm, Turiaf, Karnowski, Wiltjer, Collins. Getting tougher every year.

  10. #10
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    Suggs
    Dickau
    Morrison
    Clarke
    Olynyk

    2nd team:
    Williams Goss
    Sabonis
    Kispert
    Hachimura
    Timme
    "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take."
    -Zach Norvell Jr.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by hockeyzag View Post
    Dickau
    Suggs
    Morrison
    Clarke
    Olynyk

    2nd team:
    Williams Goss
    Sabonis
    Karnowski
    Hachimura
    Timme
    This looks good to me, but might replace Olynyk with Sabonis.

    Is the 'all time starting five' supposed to be a team that would be on the floor? That would imply 2 guards, a wing and 2 post/PF players.

    It's hard to not put the winningest player in NCAA history on this list too. Karnowski definitely deserves a mention.


    The second team wasn't up when I started my reply.
    I'm laughing. Why aren't you?

  12. #12
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    The all time starting five must be Gonzaga players who combined good offensive AND good defense.

    Suggs
    Goss Williams
    Karnowski
    Sabonis
    Clarke

  13. #13
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    Stockton
    Nigel
    Sabonis
    Clarke
    Jerry Vermillion ( all time rebounding champ)

  14. #14
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    Stockton
    Suggs
    Morrison
    Clarke
    Karnowski

    Any list that doesn't include Stockton is objectively absurd.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reborn View Post
    Go Zags!!!

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    I don’t think there is any way Suggs should even be in the conversation for best five ever. I love the guy. Loved watching him play and the way he embraced Gonzaga, his coaches, teammates and college basketball. Give me more one and dones like him please. But he was a freshman and played like a freshman on many occasions. I haven’t looked it up, but I would guess his assists to turnover ratio is not good, he was a very inconsistent three point shooter, and had more than the occasional stretch of bad basketball. We have had way too many tremendous players to put him as one of our best five ever.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
    I don’t think there is any way Suggs should even be in the conversation for best five ever. I love the guy. Loved watching him play and the way he embraced Gonzaga, his coaches, teammates and college basketball. Give me more one and dones like him please. But he was a freshman and played like a freshman on many occasions. I haven’t looked it up, but I would guess his assists to turnover ratio is not good, he was a very inconsistent three point shooter, and had more than the occasional stretch of bad basketball. We have had way too many tremendous players to put him as one of our best five ever.
    Agree. If we are allowing one year wonders then NWG is a better choice at the point.

  17. #17
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    If ranking the 5 best individual seasons ever, and not comprehensive Zag careers, you gotta include Clarke. His 2018-2019 was the best ever from a Gonzaga big.

    If you are ranking careers and not best years, then count out NWG, Suggs, and Olynyk (who was only great for 1 year.)

    My top 5 by yr:

    Clarke
    NWG
    Ammo junior yr
    Sabonis (15-16)
    Olynyk post-RS.

    I could be convinced of DD’s all-American year over Goss, but NWG gets the edge from defense and rebounds.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by StatZag View Post
    If ranking the 5 best individual seasons ever, and not comprehensive Zag careers, you gotta include Clarke. His 2018-2019 was the best ever from a Gonzaga big.

    If you are ranking careers and not best years, then count out NWG, Suggs, and Olynyk (who was only great for 1 year.)

    My top 5 by yr:

    Clarke
    NWG
    Ammo junior yr
    Sabonis (15-16)
    Olynyk post-RS.

    I could be convinced of DD’s all-American year over Goss, but NWG gets the edge from defense and rebounds.
    Brilliant.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
    I don’t think there is any way Suggs should even be in the conversation for best five ever. I love the guy. Loved watching him play and the way he embraced Gonzaga, his coaches, teammates and college basketball. Give me more one and dones like him please. But he was a freshman and played like a freshman on many occasions. I haven’t looked it up, but I would guess his assists to turnover ratio is not good, he was a very inconsistent three point shooter, and had more than the occasional stretch of bad basketball. We have had way too many tremendous players to put him as one of our best five ever.
    What you say is correct. I still say that if the money wasn't so big, he should have stayed for another year of development. I suppose the going thought is that he can learn those things in the NBA. Maybe so but he's entering the bigs with those noted flaws. We'll see.

  20. #20

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    If the criteria is overall Gonzaga career, this list is interesting, it's career Win Shares via sports-reference:

    1. Kevin Pangos, 2011-12 to 2014-15 22.4
    2. Casey Calvary, 1997-98 to 2000-01 20.3
    3. Elias Harris, 2009-10 to 2012-13 20.1
    4. Josh Perkins, 2014-15 to 2018-19 19.3
    5. Ronny Turiaf, 2001-02 to 2004-05 18.7
    6. Corey Kispert, 2017-18 to 2020-21 17.8
    7. Matt Bouldin, 2006-07 to 2009-10 17.0
    8. Blake Stepp, 2000-01 to 2003-04 16.2
    9. Richie Frahm, 1996-97 to 1999-00 15.0
    10. Steven Gray, 2007-08 to 2010-11 14.8

    (Note these stats are only from 1995 forward, so no Stockton, Burgess, etc)

  21. #21
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    Suggs....Burgess.....Sabonis.......Clarke.....a player to be named at a later date.....ok....Rui....

  22. #22
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    Ammo
    Bonus
    DDD
    Sloot
    Shem

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDABE80 View Post
    What you say is correct. I still say that if the money wasn't so big, he should have stayed for another year of development. I suppose the going thought is that he can learn those things in the NBA. Maybe so but he's entering the bigs with those noted flaws. We'll see.
    Do 20yr olds improve more by playing full time basketball year-round in the NBA with a fleet of dieticians, trainers, and longer games (82 games and playoffs) or for Gonzaga in the WCC (~35 games)?

    I don't know why you seem convinced the greater improvement would happen at GU (or any college program). I would love to watch Suggs at GU again, but I'm not going to convince myself it would be in his own best interest (for skill development).

    Suggs will likely be the best GU NBA player since Stockton. He's a great prospect and a seemingly great teammate. But I can't believe how many folks are putting him on their all-time GU top-5. His single year performance at GU was (I think, based on comparing numbers) worse than PG years from Dickau('01 & '02), NWG ('17), and Stepp ('03 & '04). Even Woolridge in '20 shot better from 2pt and 3pt than Suggs, had much better A/TO, committed 1/4 as many fouls, and wasn't far behind Suggs in rebounds and steals. I'm not saying Woolridge should be higher on the all-time GU list than Suggs. But nobody would ever seriously consider Woolridge on such a list, and Suggs is appearing on many of them. I think it's recency bias and understandable appeal of a charismatic elite prospect with some showtime highlight plays.
    Last edited by StatZag; 04-21-2021 at 11:03 PM.

  24. #24
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    Can’t tell if you’ve convinced yourself and then took it back. I said we’ll see. I don’t why you seem to think a year of playing against the no 1 team or with the no 1 team in the country would hurt him. Remember the no 1 team is the no 1 team without him. Thus, it’s a given the competition would be tough. It’s kinda moot.
    You seem to make an assumption that he’ll be a frontline starter next year against NBAers. He might but he might not. Like I said, we’ll see. As an aside, think he'll be a better player than say.Sabonis? I don't even think so...not at his position. No point in arguing. Jalen was a great one year player here. I wish him the best as he moves on.
    Last edited by MDABE80; 04-22-2021 at 01:41 AM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by StatZag View Post
    Do 20yr olds improve more by playing full time basketball year-round in the NBA with a fleet of dieticians, trainers, and longer games (82 games and playoffs) or for Gonzaga in the WCC (~35 games)?

    I don't know why you seem convinced the greater improvement would happen at GU (or any college program). I would love to watch Suggs at GU again, but I'm not going to convince myself it would be in his own best interest (for skill development).

    Suggs will likely be the best GU NBA player since Stockton. He's a great prospect and a seemingly great teammate. But I can't believe how many folks are putting him on their all-time GU top-5. His single year performance at GU was (I think, based on comparing numbers) worse than PG years from Dickau('01 & '02), NWG ('17), and Stepp ('03 & '04). Even Woolridge in '20 shot better from 2pt and 3pt than Suggs, had much better A/TO, committed 1/4 as many fouls, and wasn't far behind Suggs in rebounds and steals. I'm not saying Woolridge should be higher on the all-time GU list than Suggs. But nobody would ever seriously consider Woolridge on such a list, and Suggs is appearing on many of them. I think it's recency bias and understandable appeal of a charismatic elite prospect with some showtime highlight plays.
    True with all the numbers, etc. But numbers are just numbers.

    We never had a guy who in the semifinals could block a critical dunk, chase down the ball himself, and push it up the floor with a sick bounce pass for our dunk, critical 4 point swing. And then having the presence to already be turning the motor downcourt taking the pass for the last shot.

    It's why he's going to go 2-5 in the draft, Ammo country.

    It's crazy but I'd take Clarke over Rui

    Stockton-Suggs-Ammo-Sabonis-Clarke
    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
    Mark Twain.

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