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Thread: Suggs' 'charge'

  1. #26
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    Unfortunately, refs in WCC may not put up with raking at the ball the way Big 12 does.
    The answer to that is a deep, deep bench. It's ugly basketball, but that's how the power conferences play, with very few exceptions.

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    We talk a lot about how Few doesn't like to use a deep bench, but I think that's mostly limited by personnel. If Ballo and Zakharov were beasts in the post, I think they would have played.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scrooner View Post
    We talk a lot about how Few doesn't like to use a deep bench, but I think that's mostly limited by personnel. If Ballo and Zakharov were beasts in the post, I think they would have played.
    Mark has adapted over the years, this may be his next evolution. I'd love it if he took a page from Nolan Richardson's "40 Minutes of Hell."

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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasZagFan View Post
    Good point, reinforces my attitude in emphasizing the journey over the destination. I still think our best days are ahead of us, our program is going to be rocking for several more years. That's a carrot for our coaches to toss out there, i.e. be part of the first team to bring a title to Spokane.
    agree with all of it TZF, and your point about bench depth too which has been discussed here a lot over the years

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGoatZagFan View Post
    Someone posted a few months ago after watching Baylor about how they constantly rake at the ball and arms, just challenging the official to call fouls...betting that the refs won't call many fouls. They are coached to play that way. It drives me a little crazy, having played in an era when any motion toward the ball or arm was almost always called a foul. Coach Few has always adapted after losing big games. Tougher rebounding after MSU crushed us on the boards for example. Unfortunately, refs in WCC may not put up with raking at the ball the way Big 12 does.
    BU played a heck of a game on the offensive end though, just out performed GU, plain and simple! Congrats to them. But love and respect to GU! And at the end of the day, love and respect is what we all want?!
    yes, and in the basketball context, especially on the court, some respect from all the variables in the equation. One can dream right?

    Anyway, might have been me who you read describing Baylor's defensive tactics and that it's coached, but there were plenty of us.

    Their offensive gameplan was excellent, and executed, no doubt.

  6. #31
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    Seems like calling a charge on Suggs on that play is a mistake that no grade school referee would make

  7. #32

    Default Then there's the foul on Timme...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zagricultural View Post
    I wish someone would make a video montage with the most egregious non-calls on Baylor and the touch fouls called on Nembhard, Watson, etc... Maybe it could go viral and bring some attention to a recurring issue. You can't ignore fouls just because they are committed by guys who foul constantly.
    Be sure to add the foul called on Timme, when the Baylor player grabs him around the waist with his left arm and pulls him backward onto the floor.

  8. #33

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    Look as deep as you want for reasons Baylor came out and made shots, defended and out hustled Gonzaga. They were the best team that day. Nothing worse than hanging on to what has already been decided. A couple calls in my opinion didn't make up the difference. Don't be that fan!!!

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    I'm not saying we lost the game because of a couple of bad calls. Baylor played great, we did not.

    I'm more discouraged at the way the tournament is being officiated, and what it is doing to the sport at the highest level. This was not, IMO, bad officiating. This was bad direction, from the top down, guiding the referees to allow WAY more physical bumping, hacking, grabbing, wrapping up, etc than they would ever allow in a regular game.

    In this play, Damien just runs into Jalen chest-first at an almost 90-degree angle as Jalen is trying to avoid him, and gets rewarded with a 'foul' on Jalen and a lost possession. Tyger Campbell did this 'defender throws chest into the ballhandler and bounces backwards' crap too and was rewarded for it. Maybe we need to teach this move to the next generation, and we can have a whole team of kamikaze floppers. That would make for some great basketball to watch.

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    I’ll say it again - us mid-majors just don’t understand the elite physicality of the power-5 conferences.

    Although my phrasing is tongue-in-cheek, I think it represents a belief among the media, NCAA, etc. They seem to value the “toughness” of the power-5 programs and have let the game change to allow that “toughness” to come through.

    Quote Originally Posted by scrooner View Post
    I'm not saying we lost the game because of a couple of bad calls. Baylor played great, we did not.

    I'm more discouraged at the way the tournament is being officiated, and what it is doing to the sport at the highest level. This was not, IMO, bad officiating. This was bad direction, from the top down, guiding the referees to allow WAY more physical bumping, hacking, grabbing, wrapping up, etc than they would ever allow in a regular game.

    In this play, Damien just runs into Jalen chest-first at an almost 90-degree angle as Jalen is trying to avoid him, and gets rewarded with a 'foul' on Jalen and a lost possession. Tyger Campbell did this 'defender throws chest into the ballhandler and bounces backwards' crap too and was rewarded for it. Maybe we need to teach this move to the next generation, and we can have a whole team of kamikaze floppers. That would make for some great basketball to watch.

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    Consistently I’ve seen that the more aggressive team gets the benefit of close calls (NCAA or NBA). Not sure the reason for it, but being a half step ahead of the other guy, acting instead of reacting, seems to help. That doesn’t explain the blown calls that you have been discussing, but those don’t loom as large if the Zags had not been sluggish coming out of the gate and playing catch-up the rest of the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bballbeachbum View Post
    I don't think anyone is asking or expects refs to make the right calls all the time, but instead to simply call the games so it's not so blatant that they are full of it and calling it one way.

    But it won't happen, so it's left to those getting screwed to overcome it.

    this is the oldest equation in sports, and I'll take one championship that overcomes the BS to however many won the other way

    it's the whole notion that the Big 12/Big 10 etc. are so tough and alpha, perpetuated repeatedly by the Man's talking heads selling feelings that fit the narrative. Just look at the Big 10 this year, we ALL knew they were overrated, except the committee? LOL and as revealing as it gets that this is about MONEY. Competition takes a back seat.

    nothing new to see here, same as it ever was, but worse imo
    As a well retired Bball/FB official, we were taught to keep our eyes off the ball when it wasn't in our "area" and I have noticed many times this past tournament where the Center was making calls all the way across the court in the Trail's area where the ball was...then you have the Lead doing the same when the ball was above the FT line...I also saw great teamwork between the Lead and Trail/Center when calling charge/block fouls deferring to the direction of the play. The two most difficult calls imo are always the travel and block/charge. The most common mistakes made by officials are the "anticipated" fouls on certain plays. When I was young, you would find almost every official (Two-Man) calling reaching in a foul but today not so much. When there is a break-away the Trail/Lead almost always is trailing the play BUT almost always makes a call against the defender and on many occasions there actually wasn't a foul except for the anticipation of the foul...the other is the "over-the-back" call, where there will almost always be contact between the A2 and B2 players on rebounding BUT if you notice, in most cases the Lead official is out of position to make the call BUT still makes the call EVEN though there was not advantage gained via contact.

    That call against Suggs was a tragic miss-call and it IMO changed the flow and outcome of the game...the second foul, where he reached in was a foul and a seasoned player with one foul would have known NOT to reach in...

    To me the Blown Call of all Blown Calls took place in our Final against UNC, when the game had less than two minutes remaining of the game and May was touching the ball and was clearly out and the Lead gave the ball to UNC!!!

    It seems to be our destiny that we will have more calls against us than for us...This is four straight tournaments in critical games that calls went against us: vs UNC there were several calls - the missed May call and the call against PK fouling him out of the game; the half-court call vs Syracuse in the SS; against TT and all the calls against reaching/holding against TT and the many missed calls against us that could have changed the tempo of the game...

    I'm not saying Monday's game was lost on bad calls as Baylor was clearly the better team that night but the final score might well have been closer and maybe even in our favor had it not been for several missed calls...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogozags View Post
    As a well retired Bball/FB official, we were taught to keep our eyes off the ball when it wasn't in our "area" and I have noticed many times this past tournament where the Center was making calls all the way across the court in the Trail's area where the ball was...then you have the Lead doing the same when the ball was above the FT line...I also saw great teamwork between the Lead and Trail/Center when calling charge/block fouls deferring to the direction of the play. The two most difficult calls imo are always the travel and block/charge. The most common mistakes made by officials are the "anticipated" fouls on certain plays. When I was young, you would find almost every official (Two-Man) calling reaching in a foul but today not so much. When there is a break-away the Trail/Lead almost always is trailing the play BUT almost always makes a call against the defender and on many occasions there actually wasn't a foul except for the anticipation of the foul...the other is the "over-the-back" call, where there will almost always be contact between the A2 and B2 players on rebounding BUT if you notice, in most cases the Lead official is out of position to make the call BUT still makes the call EVEN though there was not advantage gained via contact.

    That call against Suggs was a tragic miss-call and it IMO changed the flow and outcome of the game...the second foul, where he reached in was a foul and a seasoned player with one foul would have known NOT to reach in...

    To me the Blown Call of all Blown Calls took place in our Final against UNC, when the game had less than two minutes remaining of the game and May was touching the ball and was clearly out and the Lead gave the ball to UNC!!!

    It seems to be our destiny that we will have more calls against us than for us...This is four straight tournaments in critical games that calls went against us: vs UNC there were several calls - the missed May call and the call against PK fouling him out of the game; the half-court call vs Syracuse in the SS; against TT and all the calls against reaching/holding against TT and the many missed calls against us that could have changed the tempo of the game...

    I'm not saying Monday's game was lost on bad calls as Baylor was clearly the better team that night but the final score might well have been closer and maybe even in our favor had it not been for several missed calls...
    PCA a lost art in my opinion and is one area that can really be cleaned up...drives me batty when trail or lead is making calls for baseline and vice versa that gets me yelling more at my tv than most any blown call (watch your area of responsibility). I once got a T when I was coaching when I told an official he had no clue what his primary area of responsibility was.....when he T me up I simply shrugged and said I guess I am right and it pissed you off.......then I turned from coaching to the “dark” side and became ref and miss it this year
    Basketball...The Toy Department of Life

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  14. #39
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    The style of officiating was not the reason the Zags lost but did help squash hope of a comeback. Baylor gets credit for playing well, first and foremost. However, there were several 50/50 calls that didn’t go our way at times when there were glimmers of hope. These slammed a door when the Zags were looking to get some momentum and were quite deflating as a fan.

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    In no way would I "blame" bad officiating for the outcome of that game. The outcome of that game was decided by a 5-0 start from 3 for the Bears and Vital on the boards. His energy killed us.

    That said, the charge call on Suggs was horrendously bad and was compounded by his stupid mistake on the ensuing reach-in foul. Crushing blows. We've all see Jalen get in early foul trouble in games this season and all of us had our fingers crossed it wouldn't happen during the tournament. Because Murphy is a dick, and old habits die hard, the problem reared its ugly head in the most important game of the season. The ball security went (even more) to hell after he sat on the bench and we were hosed. A completely perfect storm for Baylor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Few
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoopaholic View Post
    PCA a lost art in my opinion and is one area that can really be cleaned up...drives me batty when trail or lead is making calls for baseline and vice versa that gets me yelling more at my tv than most any blown call (watch your area of responsibility). I once got a T when I was coaching when I told an official he had no clue what his primary area of responsibility was.....when he T me up I simply shrugged and said I guess I am right and it pissed you off.......then I turned from coaching to the “dark” side and became ref and miss it this year
    Had to "retire" as the darn players were just getting to fast for me when I was the trail...if I could just be the Center then I'd still be calling...lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogozags View Post
    Had to "retire" as the darn players were just getting to fast for me when I was the trail...if I could just be the Center then I'd still be calling...lol
    haaaa know and understand the feeling....or go to 4 man and we could simply transition 30 feet not 90
    Basketball...The Toy Department of Life

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    2017 GU up by 7 early with ball in front court--- phantom call on Collins
    (7' freshman 46% 3 Pt,,1st round NBA ) in back court... No replay ,,, fouled out in 14 minutes

  19. #44
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    Bad call no question. Had little effect on the game imo. Suggs was playing erratic up to that point as Baylor made it ugly. We got our tails kicked from tip off. We weren't close to matching the intensity of the Bears, you saw defeat in the eyes of the players it was hard to watch. Hats off to the Bears onto next year.
    America's Team!

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrooner View Post
    I'm not saying we lost the game because of a couple of bad calls. Baylor played great, we did not.

    I'm more discouraged at the way the tournament is being officiated, and what it is doing to the sport at the highest level. This was not, IMO, bad officiating. This was bad direction, from the top down, guiding the referees to allow WAY more physical bumping, hacking, grabbing, wrapping up, etc than they would ever allow in a regular game.

    In this play, Damien just runs into Jalen chest-first at an almost 90-degree angle as Jalen is trying to avoid him, and gets rewarded with a 'foul' on Jalen and a lost possession. Tyger Campbell did this 'defender throws chest into the ballhandler and bounces backwards' crap too and was rewarded for it. Maybe we need to teach this move to the next generation, and we can have a whole team of kamikaze floppers. That would make for some great basketball to watch.
    agree with this. there's a lot of press out there too praising the entertainment value bonus of games called like this, you know, outside the rules. But it's confusing: what is a foul, what isn't, why is it called in one case, not another? here's a blog from Big10 country discussing that from another game, the UVA Auburn game 2018.

    https://www.startribune.com/restrain.../?refresh=true

    Remember that one? A rough and tumble affair where it was physical, allowed all game, etc. but then Guy was fouled...it was a foul...but in the context of that game? the contact was crazy in that game all game. the narrative of 'letting them play' simply means the refs are not accountable to the rules imo. More entertaining

    and more, when the direction is to call a game this way or that, instead of simply by the rules, it inherently favors one team over another, and confuses the crap out of everyone...it's a foul one time, not a foul another, etc. Who here doesn't understand that a game that allows 'defender throws chest into ballhandler' physicality, like we saw in the FF, favored other teams and not GU?

    What happens if Mitchell gets that foul as he obviously should have, we score, and then Mitchell is either pulled off of Jalen or picks up another foul trying to stay with him? we'll never know but I bet it would have changed things. Jalen stepped up in the moment, took Mitchell off the bounce, dogged him to settle things down like early in a big game like a true leader...and got whistled for a charge

    Congrats to Baylor on an excellent offensive gameplan and execution. No doubt about that.

    But Their D gameplan, to stop the historically amazing O of the Zags? video don't lie, needs officiating to allow the fouls, and imo that comes from the top down. I'm with you scrooner

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    if you did click on the other link I provided, you'll see the name Keith Kimble, who was one of the officials in this year's final. Did you know he is one of Waco's own?

    https://www.kcentv.com/article/sport.../500-535214218

    To be clear, I have NO issues with Mr. Official Keith Kimble, who is only human, and made the calls he made. The ncaa and their little gang tho? LOL

    Would be nice to have hoopaholic or Bogozags assigned to call a Zag game

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by bballbeachbum View Post
    agree with this. there's a lot of press out there too praising the entertainment value bonus of games called like this, you know, outside the rules. But it's confusing: what is a foul, what isn't, why is it called in one case, not another? here's a blog from Big10 country discussing that from another game, the UVA Auburn game 2018.

    https://www.startribune.com/restrain.../?refresh=true

    Remember that one? A rough and tumble affair where it was physical, allowed all game, etc. but then Guy was fouled...it was a foul...but in the context of that game? the contact was crazy in that game all game. the narrative of 'letting them play' simply means the refs are not accountable to the rules imo. More entertaining

    and more, when the direction is to call a game this way or that, instead of simply by the rules, it inherently favors one team over another, and confuses the crap out of everyone...it's a foul one time, not a foul another, etc. Who here doesn't understand that a game that allows 'defender throws chest into ballhandler' physicality, like we saw in the FF, favored other teams and not GU?

    What happens if Mitchell gets that foul as he obviously should have, we score, and then Mitchell is either pulled off of Jalen or picks up another foul trying to stay with him? we'll never know but I bet it would have changed things. Jalen stepped up in the moment, took Mitchell off the bounce, dogged him to settle things down like early in a big game like a true leader...and got whistled for a charge

    Congrats to Baylor on an excellent offensive gameplan and execution. No doubt about that.

    But Their D gameplan, to stop the historically amazing O of the Zags? video don't lie, needs officiating to allow the fouls, and imo that comes from the top down. I'm with you scrooner
    I told you a month ago that I did not think that a team from a small conference would be allowed to win the championship, and the no foul calls on Baylor did not change my thought, and only strengthend it. I will only believe a school from a small conference will be allowed to win the championship when I see it and not brfore. The Zag offence was a beauty to behold, but when the other team is allowed to hand check your ball handlers, and hold your cutters and stop their movement it took that beautiful offense out of the game.

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