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Thread: Suggs' 'charge'

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    Default Suggs' 'charge'


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    Quote Originally Posted by scrooner View Post
    yeah, not even close. That really didn't do us any favors with JS in foul trouble early in the first half

    And on this topic, it must have been "a point of emphasis" from either the NCAA or CBS to not show replays of anything questionable. That seemed to be a common theme throughout this years tournament.

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    [QUOTE=

    And on this topic, it must have been "a point of emphasis" from either the NCAA or CBS to not show replays of anything questionable. That seemed to be a common theme throughout this years tournament.[/QUOTE]

    I thought the same thing
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    Quote Originally Posted by spike_jr View Post

    And on this topic, it must have been "a point of emphasis" from either the NCAA or CBS to not show replays of anything questionable. That seemed to be a common theme throughout this years tournament.
    I noticed this exact thing. Any call that might've been close one way or another appears to have been excluded. It was very striking.
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    It's a horrendous call, but unfortunately that kind of crap is called so consistently that a lot of smart players take advantage just like this. Reaves on OU and Campbell on UCLA particularly stuck out to me in our games this tourney.

    NBA you need to very firmly establish defensive position and even then they ae hard on defenders. Magically, there aren't players running into and under players taking it to the basket all the time, and when they do and there is foul worthy contact, the officials get it correct 90% of the time (to my eye at least). College is seemingly a coin toss, and with just 5 fouls that really sucks. NCAA really needs to figure it out. The way they, by their actions, encourage players to try to create offensive fouls leads to some of the more dangerous collisions and some of the more pathetic flops. Both bad for the sport.

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    Suggs was very prone to getting bad charge calls on him all season. Any ideas why?

    ZZ

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    My somewhat neutral friends (they are fans of other teams first but we’re rooting for the Zags in this one) who I watched the game with made a similar comment about the lack of discussion about a Watson block that was called a foul.

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    Already in a 4-0 hole, a foul would go to Mitchell instead. Instead Suggs gets the "charge" and is called with a pretty ticky tacky reach just moments later which sends him to the bench. I hate saying a missed call helped lead the abomination that happened, but it certainly played a small part. It reminds me a lot of the tournament game against Nevada where Turiaf had two very weak calls which sent him to the bench very early and led to a rout.

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    Right or wrong, 2 quick fouls on your best player, especially when he is your point guard, is hard to overcome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spike_jr View Post
    yeah, not even close. That really didn't do us any favors with JS in foul trouble early in the first half

    And on this topic, it must have been "a point of emphasis" from either the NCAA or CBS to not show replays of anything questionable. That seemed to be a common theme throughout this years tournament.
    I thought that charge called on Suggs, which wasn't even close to a charge, and the non foul call when Watson was mugged when we were making that comeback, were the 2 biggest plays of the night. They were both momentum killers that took the fight out of the team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOtherGreatOne View Post
    I thought that charge called on Suggs, which wasn't even close to a charge, and the non foul call when Watson was mugged when we were making that comeback, were the 2 biggest plays of the night. They were both momentum killers that took the fight out of the team.
    Suggs is charge call and the rake across Timme arm second half when we could have cut it to 8 were the two big ones in my book
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoopaholic View Post
    Suggs is charge call and the rake across Timme arm second half when we could have cut it to 8 were the two big ones in my book
    There was a non call when Watson was shooting a virtual layup during the comeback when the Baylor guy grabbed his arms. That call on Suggs though seemed to take the fight out of the team, and got Baylor even more fired up, anf let Baylor that they could rough up the Zag players and get by with it.
    Last edited by TheOtherGreatOne; 04-06-2021 at 07:34 PM.

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    Another non-call when Timme “turned it over” in the second half when replay shows him being full on grabbed by the arm
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    And there is another non call when a Baylor defender slams his upper arm and elbow on the top of Kispert head as Corey attempts a layup. There even was an AP photograph showing that foul.

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    Folks, us mid-majors just don’t understand the elite physicality of power-5 conference players. Just because the rule book says something is a foul, doesn’t mean it really is when you’re dealing with elite physicality.

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    It was a brutally officiated game. Couldn't believe how many fouls Baylor got away with.

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    I wish someone would make a video montage with the most egregious non-calls on Baylor and the touch fouls called on Nembhard, Watson, etc... Maybe it could go viral and bring some attention to a recurring issue. You can't ignore fouls just because they are committed by guys who foul constantly.

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    While we have been assured that the Refs are monitored...it does seem that the calls went one way.

    Why doesn't NCAABB have a 'challenge' flag, LIKE EVERY OTHER FRIGGIN SPORT'. Add an extra t/o, per half. If the coach challenges and wins, they keep the challenge. Challenge and lose and lose the t/o plus any other challenge that half.

    I think that Refs should be part of an organization. They start where they are at and call 3 games that week, then move west (just for the sake of a direction) to a new conference. They get 3 more games, and so on. They attend classes during the off season, they could be virtual now, and take exams on rules. They could be shown game footage and have to 'make the call'.

    Make the rules the same for every conference in D1, coast to coast. Monitor the games, with any complaints filed meriting a review. The BEST refs (not by reputation or seniority) get to move on to confernce tournaments and then on to March Madness.

    Make it a well paying job, with bonuses for doing it right.
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    This is a FANTASTIC idea. Unfortunately, sports are dominated by “tradition,” that’s the way we’ve always done it,” “it was good enough in my day,” “If I had to suffer it, you do too,” etc. A performance improvement organization would do a world of good for NCAA reffing.

    Quote Originally Posted by willandi View Post
    While we have been assured that the Refs are monitored...it does seem that the calls went one way.

    Why doesn't NCAABB have a 'challenge' flag, LIKE EVERY OTHER FRIGGIN SPORT'. Add an extra t/o, per half. If the coach challenges and wins, they keep the challenge. Challenge and lose and lose the t/o plus any other challenge that half.

    I think that Refs should be part of an organization. They start where they are at and call 3 games that week, then move west (just for the sake of a direction) to a new conference. They get 3 more games, and so on. They attend classes during the off season, they could be virtual now, and take exams on rules. They could be shown game footage and have to 'make the call'.

    Make the rules the same for every conference in D1, coast to coast. Monitor the games, with any complaints filed meriting a review. The BEST refs (not by reputation or seniority) get to move on to confernce tournaments and then on to March Madness.

    Make it a well paying job, with bonuses for doing it right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willandi View Post
    While we have been assured that the Refs are monitored...it does seem that the calls went one way.

    Why doesn't NCAABB have a 'challenge' flag, LIKE EVERY OTHER FRIGGIN SPORT'. Add an extra t/o, per half. If the coach challenges and wins, they keep the challenge. Challenge and lose and lose the t/o plus any other challenge that half.

    I think that Refs should be part of an organization. They start where they are at and call 3 games that week, then move west (just for the sake of a direction) to a new conference. They get 3 more games, and so on. They attend classes during the off season, they could be virtual now, and take exams on rules. They could be shown game footage and have to 'make the call'.

    Make the rules the same for every conference in D1, coast to coast. Monitor the games, with any complaints filed meriting a review. The BEST refs (not by reputation or seniority) get to move on to confernce tournaments and then on to March Madness.

    Make it a well paying job, with bonuses for doing it right.
    1. I don’t like the idea of a challenge flag and extra timeout to use it, game and momentum already impacted by too many timeouts, tv timeouts etc. Now you want to eliminate a timeout and allow one to be used for challenges I could see that with clear rules review must be completed during the timeout period and no delays on decision.


    2. Refs are part of an organization. They attend classes, training and do take exams on rules every year.

    3. They are provided and do review game footage both before games (preparation for tendencies to try and make sure you are in correct position to see calls) and after as part of teaching and improving. They do get “make the call” footage routinely (I still do even though we have not reffed a high school game all year)

    4. Rules are the same from conference to conference. Interpretation in the heat of the moment with human perception creates tendencies of pattern (you work a big 12 game where the style of game is more handsy and physical underneath you start to adjust to that style of play....no it saying it is right just human tendency)

    5. They do monitor the games and take complaints and conduct merit review and create ratings of referees. Each game generally has one or two evaluators who score the ref in a variety of categories, court presence, position, game management, calls made, communication etc.

    6. In theory it is suppose to be the best ref’s from each conference moving on but as humans are that is not always the case and good ole boy network is alive at times (biggest complaint I have)

    7. As to making them work across the country in different conferences is an interesting concept. Logistically not sure how that could flow. First would need to disband all conference referee associations (legal entities and contracts in place with conferences so that would mean contract labor negotiations to end them with probably some sort of buyout). Then need to create a national referee association and determine pay as now you are going from a part time model to a full time model. Currently local associations it is part time model with you getting paid per game and per diem stipend ranging anywhere from 150 to 500 dollars a game. So lets say we take $300.00 game plus $300.00 stipend for an average cost of 600 dollars per ref per game, or $2,000 dollars per game cost. Well over 6,000 games per year so that comes out to a rough cost of 12 million dollars. So we are now moving to full time professional referees what is the proper pay band. Lets just pick a number. $60,000 a year for ref, per diem of 300 (stay consistent) and a need for lets says 300 refs in this pool to ensure we can have 3 refs at every game throughout the week (haven’t done the scheduling projects so could be far more).....thats 18 million plus per diem estimate of 9 milllion or a cost estimate of 27 milllion dollars per year. IF YOU can get 300 people to do reffing for $60,000 year

    I like this idea but not sure the hurdles can be overcome as you have the labor issues and the political issues of local control versus centralized control and THEN the issue of doing this for D1 girls. And what about D2 and D3 are they not suppose to get a fair, consistent system if D1 was to change?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoopaholic View Post
    1. I don’t like the idea of a challenge flag and extra timeout to use it, game and momentum already impacted by too many timeouts, tv timeouts etc. Now you want to eliminate a timeout and allow one to be used for challenges I could see that with clear rules review must be completed during the timeout period and no delays on decision.


    2. Refs are part of an organization. They attend classes, training and do take exams on rules every year.

    3. They are provided and do review game footage both before games (preparation for tendencies to try and make sure you are in correct position to see calls) and after as part of teaching and improving. They do get “make the call” footage routinely (I still do even though we have not reffed a high school game all year)

    4. Rules are the same from conference to conference. Interpretation in the heat of the moment with human perception creates tendencies of pattern (you work a big 12 game where the style of game is more handsy and physical underneath you start to adjust to that style of play....no it saying it is right just human tendency)

    5. They do monitor the games and take complaints and conduct merit review and create ratings of referees. Each game generally has one or two evaluators who score the ref in a variety of categories, court presence, position, game management, calls made, communication etc.

    6. In theory it is suppose to be the best ref’s from each conference moving on but as humans are that is not always the case and good ole boy network is alive at times (biggest complaint I have)

    7. As to making them work across the country in different conferences is an interesting concept. Logistically not sure how that could flow. First would need to disband all conference referee associations (legal entities and contracts in place with conferences so that would mean contract labor negotiations to end them with probably some sort of buyout). Then need to create a national referee association and determine pay as now you are going from a part time model to a full time model. Currently local associations it is part time model with you getting paid per game and per diem stipend ranging anywhere from 150 to 500 dollars a game. So lets say we take $300.00 game plus $300.00 stipend for an average cost of 600 dollars per ref per game, or $2,000 dollars per game cost. Well over 6,000 games per year so that comes out to a rough cost of 12 million dollars. So we are now moving to full time professional referees what is the proper pay band. Lets just pick a number. $60,000 a year for ref, per diem of 300 (stay consistent) and a need for lets says 300 refs in this pool to ensure we can have 3 refs at every game throughout the week (haven’t done the scheduling projects so could be far more).....thats 18 million plus per diem estimate of 9 milllion or a cost estimate of 27 milllion dollars per year. IF YOU can get 300 people to do reffing for $60,000 year

    I like this idea but not sure the hurdles can be overcome as you have the labor issues and the political issues of local control versus centralized control and THEN the issue of doing this for D1 girls. And what about D2 and D3 are they not suppose to get a fair, consistent system if D1 was to change?
    Refs are SUPPOSED to be the same, conference to conference. It has been demonstrated that they are not.

    The charge on Suggs was a blown call that seriously impacted the game. The Baylor player was still moving and was sliding in, not square.
    The hands and grabbing are called different conference to conference. Sorry but I don't buy the 'in the heat of the game' statement. If that were true, why do they change the way they have been calling it, game after game, when it gets to the most important games.
    The best Refs are NOT the ones rewarded. When the six refs were sent home for COVID contact reasons, before they even got to the bubble, it was noted that one or two had reputations on how they tended to call the games, and not because they are the fairest or the best. They had seniority. That was about all.

    I agree about game stoppages, but if an absolute time delay is put on a challenge, it may mean that no decision is made so it slides. That isn't right either. The idea I have put forth is expensive. The NCAA is makes a lot of money off of March Madness (Billions comes to mind) and most is paid back out. A 10% cut in what is paid out across the board, to all schools and conferences, going to ensure the best possible reffing, the same in every game, seems like a small price to pay.

    I should have added that the 3-4 man crews must have partners rotated as well, ensuring that no bad habits are reached. I am just frustrated by the way we see games reffed every March Madness. When others say that the WCC does not prepare Gonzaga for the Big 10 brand of hoops, it reinforces that the games are NOT called the same.

    The status quo feels broken, to me. What is your solution for fixing it? Leaving it alone should NOT be an option.
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    Quote Originally Posted by willandi View Post
    Refs are SUPPOSED to be the same, conference to conference. It has been demonstrated that they are not.

    The charge on Suggs was a blown call that seriously impacted the game. The Baylor player was still moving and was sliding in, not square.
    The hands and grabbing are called different conference to conference. Sorry but I don't buy the 'in the heat of the game' statement. If that were true, why do they change the way they have been calling it, game after game, when it gets to the most important games.
    The best Refs are NOT the ones rewarded. When the six refs were sent home for COVID contact reasons, before they even got to the bubble, it was noted that one or two had reputations on how they tended to call the games, and not because they are the fairest or the best. They had seniority. That was about all.

    I agree about game stoppages, but if an absolute time delay is put on a challenge, it may mean that no decision is made so it slides. That isn't right either. The idea I have put forth is expensive. The NCAA is makes a lot of money off of March Madness (Billions comes to mind) and most is paid back out. A 10% cut in what is paid out across the board, to all schools and conferences, going to ensure the best possible reffing, the same in every game, seems like a small price to pay.

    I should have added that the 3-4 man crews must have partners rotated as well, ensuring that no bad habits are reached. I am just frustrated by the way we see games reffed every March Madness. When others say that the WCC does not prepare Gonzaga for the Big 10 brand of hoops, it reinforces that the games are NOT called the same.

    The status quo feels broken, to me. What is your solution for fixing it? Leaving it alone should NOT be an option.
    until coaches align and feel strongly about this position it will remain status quo....but you wont get that as some want the game to be physical some want it to be art and some are in the middle and this varies from conference to conference and even within conference settings (Pacific likes physical basketball, we like the game in an art form) for me this creates the uniqueness of NCAA basketball but each of us have our own opinions on this

    the concept or idea that you are going to remove the human element of referring is almost laughable in my opinion. each individual has its "perception" based upon their experience, knowledge of the issue at hand, past experiences to instantly draw from and make split second decisions with all that wrapped up into one collective moment....we as spectators have the ability to see a split second call from multiple angles.....ref does not....could have been a poor angle, could have been out of position, could have had his attention diverted from his primary area of responsibility for a split second only to return to his primary area of responsibility to capture the event late (and then needing cognitive processing time), could be as simple as wiping the sweat off your brow creating a blocked view........

    the idea or concept that refs should make the absolute perfect call every time is simply not reality. heck we cant even get players to make the right read or adjustment consistently and they practice every night for hours on end.......

    should we look for inappropriate tendencies/patterns yep and they do and there is conference steering committees that look at these game by game, week by week, season by season
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    I don't think anyone is asking or expects refs to make the right calls all the time, but instead to simply call the games so it's not so blatant that they are full of it and calling it one way.

    But it won't happen, so it's left to those getting screwed to overcome it.

    this is the oldest equation in sports, and I'll take one championship that overcomes the BS to however many won the other way

    it's the whole notion that the Big 12/Big 10 etc. are so tough and alpha, perpetuated repeatedly by the Man's talking heads selling feelings that fit the narrative. Just look at the Big 10 this year, we ALL knew they were overrated, except the committee? LOL and as revealing as it gets that this is about MONEY. Competition takes a back seat.

    nothing new to see here, same as it ever was, but worse imo

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    Quote Originally Posted by bballbeachbum View Post
    I don't think anyone is asking or expects refs to make the right calls all the time, but instead to simply call the games so it's not so blatant that they are full of it and calling it one way.

    But it won't happen, so it's left to those getting screwed to overcome it.

    this is the oldest equation in sports, and I'll take one championship that overcomes the BS to however many won the other way

    it's the whole notion that the Big 12/Big 10 etc. are so tough and alpha, perpetuated repeatedly by the Man's talking heads selling feelings that fit the narrative. Just look at the Big 10 this year, we ALL knew they were overrated, except the committee? LOL and as revealing as it gets that this is about MONEY. Competition takes a back seat.

    nothing new to see here, same as it ever was, but worse imo
    Good point, reinforces my attitude in emphasizing the journey over the destination. I still think our best days are ahead of us, our program is going to be rocking for several more years. That's a carrot for our coaches to toss out there, i.e. be part of the first team to bring a title to Spokane.

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    Someone posted a few months ago after watching Baylor about how they constantly rake at the ball and arms, just challenging the official to call fouls...betting that the refs won't call many fouls. They are coached to play that way. It drives me a little crazy, having played in an era when any motion toward the ball or arm was almost always called a foul. Coach Few has always adapted after losing big games. Tougher rebounding after MSU crushed us on the boards for example. Unfortunately, refs in WCC may not put up with raking at the ball the way Big 12 does.
    BU played a heck of a game on the offensive end though, just out performed GU, plain and simple! Congrats to them. But love and respect to GU! And at the end of the day, love and respect is what we all want?!

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