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Thread: Drew Timme and NBA stock from ESPN

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    Draymond, meet Mr William Felton Russel. Draymond’s petulance cost the GSWs at least one NBA title.
    He was their third best player until Durant got there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JPtheBeasta View Post
    He was a Swiss Army knife on a multiple-time champion Golden State Warriors team. Personal stuff aside, he is a good passer with really good feel for the game, and is also unselfish with the ball. He played center often for them and is undersized and not very athletic. He switches screens well. He has a better than average handle and can show off guard skills here and there. He was a gifted scorer, but unorthodox in doing so and with a modest outside shot. Heíd have 20 points and you didnít really know how he got there. I am assuming Timme is much more respectful in doing so, but they both talk a lot on the court.

    From a post-moves perspective, Timme is probably closest to Kevin McHaleó but the comparison ends there. I think the gestalt, minus the behavioral issues, is what me think of Draymond. I donít know any of the new NBA players well. Iím standing by the comparison.
    Curry, Iggy, KD, Klay, Kerr.....not a bad supporting cast. How would his ďgameĒ fare on the Knicks or Magic? Swiss Army what?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JPtheBeasta View Post
    He was their third best player until Durant got there.
    And that lost crown, you ok with his behavior?

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    I kind of wonder if Timme would have been a lottery pick 20-30 years ago. I feel like Karnowski would have been 20-30 years ago also. It's sad to me that highly skilled post players are no longer valued in the NBA. I get the reason and I'm all for a stat driven approach to building a team and winning, but I really enjoy watching highly skilled big men.
    Bring back the OCC

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    And that lost crown, you ok with his behavior?
    Although I don't know exactly to what you refer, I was not a fan of his constant griping at refs and technical fouls. His trash talking went too far, as well. He also led with his knee into the groin of a player on a layup on one occasion that I recall, and it seemed intentional. I am thinking only about positive impact on the court.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    Curry, Iggy, KD, Klay, Kerr.....not a bad supporting cast. How would his “game” fare on the Knicks or Magic? Swiss Army what?
    Golden State made "positionless basketball" a thing. They weren't afraid to play small lineups and not always match up with the opposing big man.

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    I'll be done for now. I had no idea my comparison would be controversial. I'd love to hear other comparisons that are better. It's going to be a long couple of days waiting for the next game.

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    Hey all, first post here. Thanks for having me!

    I think what's sometimes skipped-over trying to evaluate a player like Timme is that a lot of what he does to help a team win doesn't necessarily show up in a stat column. And it's particularly easy to overlook those things when he's already performing as well as he is statistically anyways.

    # of rebounds in the box-score is the only way to quantify rebounds, but it's not at all the best measure for how purposefully and aggressively a player boxes out on each shot. Blocked shots, same thing, there's no place in the box score for "well-defended shots" or "hand in his face altered shots", but those are equally important and affect the game. Heck, if there was a column in the box score for "sealed off the lane with a screen to get a teammate an easy layup" Timme would be a league leader there too.

    Added to that, if the NBA folks have concerns about any perceived deficiencies they'll have every opportunity in the world to get an up-close look during private work outs. Those guys know what they're looking for and they don't miss much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gu03alum View Post
    I kind of wonder if Timme would have been a lottery pick 20-30 years ago. I feel like Karnowski would have been 20-30 years ago also. It's sad to me that highly skilled post players are no longer valued in the NBA. I get the reason and I'm all for a stat driven approach to building a team and winning, but I really enjoy watching highly skilled big men.
    Shem played in front of and against future NBA players and won the Jabbar Award....and won every Gonzaga Fan's heart..... and more importantly the most games....and was not drafted ......I understand and hope that he is well and playing for some dough in Poland......the NBA is a different world....

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    Quote Originally Posted by JPtheBeasta View Post
    Although I don't know exactly to what you refer, I was not a fan of his constant griping at refs and technical fouls. His trash talking went too far, as well. He also led with his knee into the groin of a player on a layup on one occasion that I recall, and it seemed intentional. I am thinking only about positive impact on the court.
    Now you know.

    https://www.freep.com/story/sports/c...als/367991001/

    https://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/05/dra...on-james-punch

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartruff1 View Post
    Shem played in front of and against future NBA players and won the Jabbar Award....and won every Gonzaga Fan's heart..... and more importantly the most games....and was not drafted ......I understand and hope that he is well and playing for some dough in Poland......the NBA is a different world....
    Bart, they aren’t listening.

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    Draymond's antics probably go too far but his fire also negates the melancholy nature of Steph/Klay and lights a fire under the team's butt night in night out. He's also a guy that's willing to guard an opposing center all game at 6'5 while taking only 2 shots on offense because he knows his role. He knows what he is and there's something nice about that on a basketball court. His defensive rotations and his knowledge of where to be and where to go on the offensive end are incredible. Acting like he's some scrub in the NBA is ludicrous. Did he cost them a ring? Undoubtedly. However, his play was integral to GS unlocking the positionless basketball of which we saw and what other teams attempt to replicate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    Curry, Iggy, KD, Klay, Kerr.....not a bad supporting cast. How would his “game” fare on the Knicks or Magic? Swiss Army what?
    I think this was proven when GSW had all those injuries and he had no superstars to play with last year. Sir Charles called him out on it too.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX9B3LLS9aY

    Draymond is hugely overrated. Thinks "rings" make him an all-timer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    Bart, they aren’t listening.
    I understand...if you are a boy over 80 or under 10 people think you are adorable but ignore your opinions .....I am happy being adorable....

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    I don't think the NBA drafts on potential as much as people say. I don't know what their criteria is, but recent Zags have shown that an NBA 3 pt shot can be learned (Sabonis, Clarke and Rui). Of those 3, only Clarke is a real threat as a blocker.
    Drew already has a mid range jumper.

    I understand that he may not be drafted, but what is wrong with a 6' 10" 20 year old that has shown the ability to score inside against the best big men in the NCAA, that regularly collects a goodly amount of rebounds, that regularly collects fouls on the opponents, and shoots 70% (and it could be better) from the FT line?

    If you want to say 'potential'. please be specific in what he is lacking. Please define what the NBA means when THEY say potential.
    I'm laughing. Why aren't you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by willandi View Post
    I don't think the NBA drafts on potential as much as people say. I don't know what their criteria is, but recent Zags have shown that an NBA 3 pt shot can be learned (Sabonis, Clarke and Rui). Of those 3, only Clarke is a real threat as a blocker.
    Drew already has a mid range jumper.

    I understand that he may not be drafted, but what is wrong with a 6' 10" 20 year old that has shown the ability to score inside against the best big men in the NCAA, that regularly collects a goodly amount of rebounds, that regularly collects fouls on the opponents, and shoots 70% (and it could be better) from the FT line?

    If you want to say 'potential'. please be specific in what he is lacking. Please define what the NBA means when THEY say potential.
    The ability to move his feet on defense and the ability to stretch the floor is what he is lacking. He will get put in a high ball screen every possession and switched onto an NBA playmaker. He does have the best footwork on a big man that I've ever seen so that's something that he definitely brings to the table, plus he's shown that he's a capable playmaker. I personally think he's worth a late first round pick but the NBA might not see it that way.

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    if timme would do what kispert has done, spend one more year having a blast in zag nation and the college life, with students back, and listen to NBA advice, next year he could possibly go in the first round.
    would love it if he would do that.
    If he doesn't and chet chooses spokane, we will have bigs, kaden perry, ben, strawther, anton and Lord knows what the coaching staff could find in a wide open recruitment field of opportunities,
    will be sad if ballo and/or pavel leave, but would totally understand. No matter where Ballo goes, though, any homesickness he may have will come along with him. From body language i just can't tell why I don't think he has fit in as comfortably as Rui, Tillie, Ayayi, Ronnie, Karno, and even Philip did. Bol Kong never seemed to be one of the guys, but I don't know -- going off of impressions. I am sure some insiders on the board know more than i do about how Ballo is fitting in. I just have feelings for his situation, leaving home at 14, to barely ever get back to family, in different culture, different languages, life among strangers and new people ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bouldin4Prez View Post
    The ability to move his feet on defense and the ability to stretch the floor is what he is lacking. He will get put in a high ball screen every possession and switched onto an NBA playmaker. He does have the best footwork on a big man that I've ever seen so that's something that he definitely brings to the table, plus he's shown that he's a capable playmaker. I personally think he's worth a late first round pick but the NBA might not see it that way.
    Thank you but..."He does have the best footwork on a big man that I've ever seen" and stretching the floor can be taught.

    What does the NBA mean by 'POTENTIAL'?
    I'm laughing. Why aren't you?

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    I'll weigh in.... The most important qualities in an NBA big right now:
    -Switch in pick and roll defensively and hold your own
    -Stretch the floor
    -Protect the rim

    Don't have to do all 3 to make it. Probably have to do one. Kelly Olynyk made it because he could stretch the floor at 6'11". Career 36.5% from 3, although he's down at 31% this year. Timme is undersized physically so his best path is being a more reliable shooter imo.

    There are always outliers. Like Sabonis, doesn't shoot it great from 3, although when I watch he does seem to stretch the floor pretty well. Good defender but I wouldn't say rim protector. Sabonis is also incredibly skilled. One of the most skilled bigs in the league. Timme is skilled but Sabonis is skilled skilled. Margins are small in the NBA and if you're almost as good as Sabonis in a few different ways you don't end up almost as good as Sabonis, you likely end up towards the end of a rotation.

    I am not counting Drew out on making a squad or even playing for several years. I think he has intangibles that will help him significantly in that regard. I expect him to test the waters this year and ultimately come back to GU. After this run, he is an all-time great Zag no matter what happens after Gonzaga. Can't wait to watch him this weekend.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by willandi View Post
    Thank you but..."He does have the best footwork on a big man that I've ever seen" and stretching the floor can be taught.

    What does the NBA mean by 'POTENTIAL'?
    Well, the guys you are comparing him to had more potential for what the NBA is looking for. The ability to space and defend in space while still having size to protect the rim (except for Rui who is projected more of 3 than a 5 - which is what Timme projects as). In the "can it be taught" category, NBA evaluators will look to free throw percentage to determine whether a player can be taught to space the court with perimeter shooting (you can look up articles about the greatest correlation being FT shooting).

    OFFENSIVE SPACING
    Of the four guys you mentioned, Timme, Rui, Clarke, Sabonis ... Timme is at 69.5% barely ahead of Clarke at 69.4% in free throw shooting. Rui was at 74% his last year and Sabonis at 77%. As far as threes go, Rui was the best shooter of the group while Timme (6-20), Sabonis (5-14) and Clarke (4-15) are all in a lower category. If an NBA evaluator looks at these four guys the biggest risk for being able to space is probably a tie between Clarke and Timme. The other two were much safer bets. So what else do they bring.

    DEFENDING IN SPACE
    Starting with steal percentage, Brandon Clarke is in a category all by himself (2.3%) amongst those four big men. Rui was at a respectable 1.8% and was heavily criticized for a perceived weakness in defending. While he looked great at times his rotations and switches were confused and not optimal for a lot of evaluators. He could move laterally and was explosive but for whatever reason he didn't always seem engaged. Then there is Timme at 1.4%. Even worse than Rui but better than Sabonis. Timme is third by a wide margin with no great physical skill set like Rui promising he is going to get any better.

    PROTECTING THE RIM
    Clarke had an insane 11.2% block rate. That alone made him an interesting outlier from an evaluation standpoint. It is indicative of his athleticism and physical tools that promised he'd be - at absolute worst - a versatile defender with the ability to protect the paint and defend the pick and roll. While it wasn't "potential" as it was already realized, it made his floor really high and picking him less of a risk. Sabonis was the second best shot blocker at 2.7%. Timme is third, just barely nudging past Rui (2.5 to 2.4%). Once again, Timme is the third (and barely) best of that group of big men with absolutely nothing indicating he will suddenly become a better rim protector. With Rui, projecting as a 3 as much as a 4, he gets a bit of a pass from evaluators in this category. But Timme is a 5.

    REBOUNDING
    Sabonis is a great rebounder. His numbers were off the charts good. Clarke was a good rebounder especially on the offensive end. Timme is an okay rebounder. Playing alongside four guards he has the lowest numbers of those three big men. He beats out Rui who wasn't a good rebounder.

    If Big men are asked by the modern NBA team to space, defend space, protect the rim and rebound Timme is the worst of the three big guys you actually mentioned in two of those four categories and a fraction of a percent ahead of Clarke on what evaluators look at for perimeter shooting. Clarke made up for that with incredible defensive ability that made him a low-risk pick because people knew that part of his game would translate. Comparing him to Sabonis is a better, but Sabonis brought generational rebounding and much more likely perimeter shooting to the table than Timme does at this point. Plus, an NBA legend for a dad probably helps an exec risk their job drafting him as well.


    What should Timme do? Score 20+ points per game on NBA bigs in the tournament is certainly helping his case to be an NBA big. Growing two or three inches would help. Coming back to GU and shooting 75% from freethrow and knocking down a few more three pointers next season would also help. But right now he is a risk for his very excellent game (that I love) translating to the NBA. A big risk. And it is hard to see potential for massive improvements in shot blocking and perimeter defense.
    Last edited by mgadfly; 04-01-2021 at 12:00 PM.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by zagfan08 View Post
    I'll weigh in.... The most important qualities in an NBA big right now:
    -Switch in pick and roll defensively and hold your own
    -Stretch the floor
    -Protect the rim

    Don't have to do all 3 to make it. Probably have to do one. Kelly Olynyk made it because he could stretch the floor at 6'11". Career 36.5% from 3, although he's down at 31% this year. Timme is undersized physically so his best path is being a more reliable shooter imo.

    There are always outliers. Like Sabonis, doesn't shoot it great from 3, although when I watch he does seem to stretch the floor pretty well. Good defender but I wouldn't say rim protector. Sabonis is also incredibly skilled. One of the most skilled bigs in the league. Timme is skilled but Sabonis is skilled skilled. Margins are small in the NBA and if you're almost as good as Sabonis in a few different ways you don't end up almost as good as Sabonis, you likely end up towards the end of a rotation.

    I am not counting Drew out on making a squad or even playing for several years. I think he has intangibles that will help him significantly in that regard. I expect him to test the waters this year and ultimately come back to GU. After this run, he is an all-time great Zag no matter what happens after Gonzaga. Can't wait to watch him this weekend.
    Nice post. I'd add that bigs who can distribute at the level of Jokic or Sabonis are also highly valued. Timme is a tremendous passer which may help his prospects.

    A bit OT, but I've always believed that while the NBA certainly weighs potentially heavily into evaluations, that doesn't equate to meaning a player SHOULD leave based on potential alone. Living in Wisconsin, I found this article from a few years ago really interesting:
    https://madison.com/wsj/sports/baske...ad6291357.html

    To be clear I don't think the above applies to Drew Timme. He's already a highly skilled, developed player. I just hope that an NBA team can recognize his true value whenever he does choose to leave GU, and I'm really grateful he's a Zag for now.

  22. #47
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    I will just throw my over simplified analysis in the ring. Timme would have zero shot at the first round and the second round is far from guaranteed (I'd say unlikely) if he goes pro. He simply lacks the physical skills that the NBA looks for in bigs. He doesn't have the range (right now) to stretch a defense, he lacks NBA athleticism, and he needs to get stronger. Should he declare for the NBA draft, absolutely IMO, but he shouldn't sign with an agent. He can get invaluable feedback by doing that and then build a plan to improve those areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JPtheBeasta View Post
    If he develops a shot he could have a Draymond Green type of impact, IMO.
    Draymond Green ? I would never compare any Zag player to a sorry person like Green. If there ever was a more useless person than Green, I have never seen them, and I have been around for a long time.

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    Timme is a throwback player. It's hard to find a good, current NBA comparison for him. With the way the NBA game is played and the attributes that teams covet the most from big men at the moment, his game isn't the most translatable to the next level.

    He's not a bad perimeter defender, but we all saw the way Oklahoma and Austin Reaves targeted that match-up and had success with doing it. However, we all know that he simply can't afford to get in foul trouble so I'm convinced that we're not seeing his full defensive capability this season. His potential defensive concerns combined with the fact that he hasn't flashed a consistent three point shot (I think he will develop one in time) likely prevent his draft stock from skyrocketing at this point in time. That being said, his tournament success will factor heavily into the equation and he has certain skills (awesome passer, high basketball IQ) that might convince a team to take a shot on him as high as the late first round IMO. Hopefully Corey's ascent to being a projected lottery pick convinces Drew to stick around and show scouts some additions to his game next season. He's playing unbelievable basketball right now, I'm savoring every minute!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Worthington View Post
    Timme is a throwback player. It's hard to find a good, current NBA comparison for him. With the way the NBA game is played and the attributes that teams covet the most from big men at the moment, his game isn't the most translatable to the next level.

    He's not a bad perimeter defender, but we all saw the way Oklahoma and Austin Reaves targeted that match-up and had success with doing it. However, we all know that he simply can't afford to get in foul trouble so I'm convinced that we're not seeing his full defensive capability this season. His potential defensive concerns combined with the fact that he hasn't flashed a consistent three point shot (I think he will develop one in time) likely prevent his draft stock from skyrocketing at this point in time. That being said, his tournament success will factor heavily into the equation and he has certain skills (awesome passer, high basketball IQ) that might convince a team to take a shot on him as high as the late first round IMO. Hopefully Corey's ascent to being a projected lottery pick convinces Drew to stick around and show scouts some additions to his game next season. He's playing unbelievable basketball right now, I'm savoring every minute!
    Drew shot a lot of 3s in HS, IMO he gave up that shot for the benefit of the team. Besides, the Zags' offense has deemphasized the 3 pointer in the overall scheme.

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