Race thread (will be moved on Monday night)

[Hoopaholic]

How lawful was the report that stated the area was cleared without incident but one man had tripped and fell?

Addressed that several times

IF it was intentional someone needs to be held accountable as transparency, honesty, integrity and ethics are the foundation of. Trust and thus success


However, having been in fast moving critical incidents, I could also understand how the information got transmitted and when it got to a PIO it could have been manipulated not by negligence, recklessness or intent but by simple human error (think the old tin can game we played as kids and how the statement starts and is completely different. By the time it gets to the end person)

Either way it has a negative impact to the trust piggy bank and needs to be investigated and outcomes provided for transparency sake

[tinfoilzag]

According to your numbers Gonzaga University does have a racial disparity issue especially among its faculty.

Thanks for sharing was unaware.

The percentage of those attending and staff falls in line with national and local demographics. The goal is equality of opportunity not equality of outcome.

[Hoopaholic]

Yeah true. The guy was a dumb ass for walking up to cops in riot gear. The guy tumbled pretty easily. The cops were visibly upset after they saw what happened. But it's just sort of a bummer to see the police push the guy when, all things considered, they probably didn't need to. I'm not calling for the guys badge or think he should be in trouble, but it's just discouraging for me as a lay person who wants to see the police be successful and get a better public perception after this whole thing is through.

In course of civil discussion what option would you have employed knowing that there is projectiles being thrown, group of angry people and the decision and objective was to clear the area was made:

Ignore him and continue (thus letting him in to the interior of the security zone creating a secondary risk that resources would have to deal with)

Stop and do nothing (likely unintended consequence would be advancement of the others to take similar position)

Arrest him (risk of inflaming the group even further, delays to process and the need to protect the individual you just arrested which reduces your resources available to achieve the original objective)

Continue your order to back up and when ignored push him (as per training)

Change your objective ( to gain lawful compliance with the legal order of removing selves from the area)and retreat

Those would be the option in this particular situation

[tinfoilzag]

This is a classic persuasion technique used in propaganda. Here's how it works:

Come up with an idea or opinion you want someone to adopt. For example, you want to get paid a bonus this year at work. We can call this idea the 'payload'. In order to deliver the payload in a way the reader will adopt it you put it in a list. The list should consist of 4 to 5 points. The other points should be very obviously factual (and a bit boring) and then you place your payload in with the facts. For our example, it would be worded something like this:

1. Customers are the lifeblood of this company (obvious fact)
2. Without our employees, we can't serve the customers (obvious fact)
3. Without annual bonuses, we'll lose our best employees (Payload)
4. Whether we believe we can or we can't, we're right (clever saying or quote)

You've just programmed your opinion as a fact in someone's mind! Because you paced the reader with facts, they will likely accept all items in the list as facts when it is categorized and stored in the mind. Bonus points if you can keep the same cadence in your writing and focus on loss instead of gain as fear makes humans care more about loss than gain.

Enjoy your newfound tactics is persuasion!

[zagfan24]

This is a classic persuasion technique used in propaganda. Here's how it works:

Come up with an idea or opinion you want someone to adopt. For example, you want to get paid a bonus this year at work. We can call this idea the 'payload'. In order to deliver the payload in a way the reader will adopt it you put it in a list. The list should consist of 4 to 5 points. The other points should be very obviously factual (and a bit boring) and then you place your payload in with the facts. For our example, it would be worded something like this:

1. Customers are the lifeblood of this company (obvious fact)
2. Without our employees, we can't serve the customers (obvious fact)
3. Without annual bonuses, we'll lose our best employees (Payload)
4. Whether we believe we can or we can't, we're right (clever saying or quote)

You've just programmed your opinion as a fact in someone's mind! Because you paced the reader to with facts, it will likely accept all items in the list as facts when it is categorized and stored in the mind. Bonus points if you can keep the same cadence in your writing and focus on loss instead of gain as fear makes humans care more about loss than gain.

Enjoy your newfound tactics is persuasion!

I think the point of that meme is better phrased as one statement, then. "Your experience is not everyone's experience." Because one of the biggest mistakes we ALL make is assuming that our lens and our knowledge and our worldview and our experiences offers insight into how everyone else lives.

[tinfoilzag]

I think the point of that meme is better phrased as one statement, then. "Your experience is not everyone's experience."

And water is wet. Saying "your world isn't the world" wasn't the payload in the propaganda meme.

[BurgessEraZag]

Couldn't agree more with ZagFan. One of the most surprising lessons I've "finally" learned in my 8th and 9th decade of life is that "everyone is different and everyone looks at things differently, even when we essentially agree on the result or resolution of an issue. Frequently people become at odds with others even when they basically agree we all want peace, happiness and good order.

[willandi]

I am saddened that, despite all the information shared, in one form or another, you persist in your position.

[Zagceo]

I think the point of that meme is better phrased as one statement, then. "Your experience is not everyone's experience." Because one of the biggest mistakes we ALL make is assuming that our lens and our knowledge and our worldview and our experiences offers insight into how everyone else lives.

along those lines.....here’s another persons experience

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTF-85H_E6o

[zagfan24]

And water is wet. Saying "your world isn't the world" wasn't the payload in the propaganda meme.

I'm really not being obtuse here...what is the payload in the meme? Which one of the constructs listed do you not think exists?

[tinfoilzag]

I am saddened that, despite all the information shared, in one form or another, you persist in your position.

I appreciate that. Everyone has been very civil in the delivering of their information as well.

I get the impression that people think I'm on the other "side" or "team" on these positions. This all or nothing, you're with us or against us is not productive is solving problems.

Racism is real. Discrimination is real. Corruption is real. Murder is wrong. Everyone has a different life experience. Black lives matter. Of course.

But there is nuance here. IMO there is not just one problem (racism) that can explain away all the issues. We need to keep talking.

One of the reasons I'm a fan at GU is the fans; always classy. Thanks mods and posters.

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

[tinfoilzag]

I'm really not being obtuse here...what is the payload in the meme? Which one of the constructs listed do you not think exists?

1. Pandemics are real - Can confirm with observable data and can be measured in infections and deaths. Can model and predict.
2. Racism is real - Can confirm as people in the past and today have made statements that they believe one race is superior to another.
3. White privileged is real - Can't confirm. Can't be isolated or observed. No metrics. Faith based. Similar to chakra or aura
4. Police brutality is real - Can confirm. Can be seen and measured.
5. Everything isn't about you - Can Confirm but philosophy involved. While Sophists would argue that this is opinion, most would say that that there is an objective and observable universe.

[willandi]

[CB4]

3. White privileged is real - Can't confirm. Can't be isolated or observed. No metrics. Faith based. Similar to chakra or aura

What do you think the definition of white privilege is?

[zagfan24]

3. White privileged is real - Can't confirm. Can't be isolated or observed. No metrics. Faith based. Similar to chakra or aura

When operationally defined, I would argue that white privilege can be evaluated using metrics and observation.

https://www.tolerance.org/magazine/f...ivilege-really

https://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html

[tinfoilzag]

What do you think the definition of white privilege is?

It's a good question. The concept started in 88? Every time I try to find the definition of it all I get are anecdotes that can be attributed to it but not what it is.

It appears to be a loose collection of bias and prejudices people have towards race, religion, class, language, and sex attributed to an ethnicity, in this case people who are perceived of as white.

I guess the unit of measure is a "Karen" but I don't know what that is. I've seen some non-whites being accused of having it in twitter arguments so it may not be just skin color?

[willandi]

How racist policing took over American cities, explained by a historian

https://www.vox.com/2020/6/6/2128064...74zhrbtl6gvc-Q

[willandi]

This is from a link posted above. I don't normally like to post large blocks of data, buyt this should be read. It provides some insight into what 'white privilege' is.

Daily effects of white privilege
I decided to try to work on myself at least by identifying some of the daily effects of white privilege in
my life. I have chosen those conditions that I think in my case attach somewhat more to skin-color
privilege than to class, religion, ethnic status, or geographic location, though of course all these other
factors are intricately intertwined. As far as I can tell, my African American coworkers, friends, and
acquaintances with whom I come into daily or frequent contact in this particular time, place and time of
work cannot count on most of these conditions.
1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.
2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to
mistrust my kind or me.
3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can
afford and in which I would want to live.
4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.
5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.
6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely
represented.
7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my
color made it what it is.
8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their
race.
9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.
10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.
11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the
only member of his/her race.
12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket
and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find
someone who can cut my hair.
13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the
appearance of financial reliability.
14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.
15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical
protection.
16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and
workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.
17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.
18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute
these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.
19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.
20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.
21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.
22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's
majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.
23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without
being seen as a cultural outsider.
24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.
25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled
out because of my race.
26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's
magazines featuring people of my race.
27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than
isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.
28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize
her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.
29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program
centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues
disagree with me.
30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me
more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.
31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage
them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative
consequences of any of these choices.
32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.
33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my
race.
34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.
35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job
suspect that I got it because of my race.
36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether
it had racial overtones.
37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my
next steps, professionally.
38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether
a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.
39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.
40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be
mistreated in the places I have chosen.
41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.
42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my
race.
43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.
44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.
45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.
46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.
47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal
with us.
48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.
49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not
turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.
50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.

[CB4]

It's a good question. The concept started in 88? Every time I try to find the definition of it all I get are anecdotes that can be attributed to it but not what it is.

It appears to be a loose collection of bias and prejudices people have towards race, religion, class, language, and sex attributed to an ethnicity, in this case people who are perceived of as white.

I guess the unit of measure is a "Karen" but I don't know what that is. I've seen some non-whites being accused of having it in twitter arguments so it may not be just skin color?

You should read on it.

Given the choice, if you're pulled over by the police would you rather be white or black? Given the choice, would you rather exercise your right to lethal home defense against an intruder as a white or black person? Given the choice, if your son gets in a schoolyard fight, would you rather he be white or black at the disciplinary hearing? If you're mistaken as a home intruder on the street, but are really just a jogger, would you rather be white or black? The honest answer to any of these hypothetical questions is "White." This benefit of the doubt for white people is the white privilege. White people get screwed too, no doubt, but almost any metric will show you that black people and people of color get the short end of the stick more often. No one wants to take away anyone's "white privilege." It's about extending the rights to people of color as well.

Recall that Stanford swimmer who raped a woman as a freshman on camera. He got a slap on the wrist. That's white privilege at the most extreme level.

[Kong-Kool-Aid]

I'm curious if you feel there are no lasting impacts of slavery or segregation in the United States?

[tinfoilzag]

You should read on it.

Given the choice, if you're pulled over by the police would you rather be white or black? Given the choice, would you rather exercise your right to lethal home defense against an intruder as a white or black person? Given the choice, if your son gets in a schoolyard fight, would you rather he be white or black at the disciplinary hearing? If you're mistaken as a home intruder on the street, but are really just a jogger, would you rather be white or black? The honest answer to any of these hypothetical questions is "White." This benefit of the doubt for white people is the white privilege. White people get screwed too, no doubt, but almost any metric will show you that black people and people of color get the short end of the stick more often. No one wants to take away anyone's "white privilege." It's about extending the rights to people of color as well.

Recall that Stanford swimmer who raped a woman as a freshman on camera. He got a slap on the wrist. That's white privilege at the most extreme level.

Again, no definition, just a collections of antidotes, hypotheticals, stereotypes. Maybe "white privilege' is saying "Whites" have a strong brand?

[bballbeachbum]

In course of civil discussion what option would you have employed knowing that there is projectiles being thrown, group of angry people and the decision and objective was to clear the area was made:

Ignore him and continue (thus letting him in to the interior of the security zone creating a secondary risk that resources would have to deal with)

Stop and do nothing (likely unintended consequence would be advancement of the others to take similar position)

Arrest him (risk of inflaming the group even further, delays to process and the need to protect the individual you just arrested which reduces your resources available to achieve the original objective)

Continue your order to back up and when ignored push him (as per training)

Change your objective ( to gain lawful compliance with the legal order of removing selves from the area)and retreat

Those would be the option in this particular situation

hey hoop, the DA was clear what he thinks should have happened, and charged the two officers based on that. The DA presser I linked, or even the shorter edited version, his interpretation of the event is different from yours, maybe I'm wrong on that, but what do you think of what the DA said about this and how the law, per the DA, says these officers should have acted?

[willandi]

I'm curious if you feel there are no lasting impacts of slavery or segregation in the United States?

Well, the Irish... Just kidding. It is a favorite deflection used by many to deny the reality of Black persecution.

[tinfoilzag]

I'm curious if you feel there are no lasting impacts of slavery or segregation in the United States?

It's such an obvious answer I can't tell if you are trolling. Just because something is addressed and codified doesn't mean it erases history or impact.

[CB4]

Again, no definition, just a collections of antidotes, hypotheticals, stereotypes. Maybe "white privilege' is saying "Whites" have a strong brand?

I don't even understand what you're getting at. I asked you what you understand white privilege to be. You don't need a library card to learn about it. I provided examples, which you reject as "a collections of antidotes, hypotheticals, stereotypes" and make some vague reference about Whites as a brand. You've expressed your dissent and seem to reject the idea that white people have more "advantages" in American society than black people, such as not getting charged with marijuana at the same rate as people of color despite similar usage. I don't think I can continue to engage with you despite my efforts to help you expand your thinking from all of this.