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Thread: Race thread (will be moved on Monday night)

  1. #126
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    this is one of the most polite conversations I could ever imagine, when people can hide behind anonymity, or vent, I am really impressed. The opinions of reds and blues are in here and everything in between, and we are giving and taking and sometimes soul searching and giving others credit for points they hadn't thought of.
    this country would do well to copy our message board, i believe that reds and blues talking to each other is a step in the right direction, and I don't see it happen that much. race is a part of college basketball and I agree zag basketball is a shining example of how much progress can happen with all ethnicities.
    congratulations to us all, in my humble opinion
    go zags
    please let there be a basketball season next year
    what sacrifice can I offer to appease the basketball gods?

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    The name "Black lives matter" is a cloaked insult. It's meant to divide Americans. I'm not talking about the people in BLM, just the name.

    The name implies that there is a group of people in the US that don't care about black lives. It also allows anyone arguing against any position the group takes (no matter how destructive) to be accused being against "black lives mattering". The same can be said for the name "Antifa".

    From the outset, just the name makes defining and finding solutions for problems very difficult because it introduces an adversarial position before any discussion starts. It's just like the old lawyer joke, "Sir, have you quit beating your wife?". No matter how you answer the question, it frames you as being a wife beater.

    The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names.

  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinfoilzag View Post
    The name "Black lives matter" is a cloaked insult. It's meant to divide Americans. I'm not talking about the people in BLM, just the name.

    The name implies that there is a group of people in the US that don't care about black lives. It also allows anyone arguing against any position the group takes (no matter how destructive) to be accused being against "black lives mattering". The same can be said for the name "Antifa".

    From the outset, just the name makes defining and finding solutions for problems very difficult because it introduces an adversarial position before any discussion starts. It's just like the old lawyer joke, "Sir, have you quit beating your wife?". No matter how you answer the question, it frames you as being a wife beater.

    The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names.
    There is a group of people in the USA that doesn't care about black lives. The Constitution says black lives matter equally with white and all other lives. Yet the establishment and our institutions treat them as mattering less.

    In response to this reality, particularly police brutality, people protested and "black lives matter" became a repeated phrase like "no justice no peace." The movement is now called black lives matter. Within that movement there's a diverse set of views.

    The phrase "black lives matter" wasn't intended to piss off well-intentioned white people who chose not to learn about the experience of black people in the USA. The phrase "all lives matter," which is true and non-controversial in it's ordinary meaning, takes away from the unique focus of this civil rights movement: it draws attention away from the root of the issue which institutional racism against African Americans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tinfoilzag View Post
    The name "Black lives matter" is a cloaked insult. It's meant to divide Americans. I'm not talking about the people in BLM, just the name.

    The name implies that there is a group of people in the US that don't care about black lives. It also allows anyone arguing against any position the group takes (no matter how destructive) to be accused being against "black lives mattering". The same can be said for the name "Antifa".

    From the outset, just the name makes defining and finding solutions for problems very difficult because it introduces an adversarial position before any discussion starts. It's just like the old lawyer joke, "Sir, have you quit beating your wife?". No matter how you answer the question, it frames you as being a wife beater.

    The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names.
    Quote Originally Posted by CB4 View Post
    There is a group of people in the USA that doesn't care about black lives. The Constitution says black lives matter equally with white and all other lives. Yet the establishment and our institutions treat them as mattering less.

    In response to this reality, particularly police brutality, people protested and "black lives matter" became a repeated phrase like "no justice no peace." The movement is now called black lives matter. Within that movement there's a diverse set of views.

    The phrase "black lives matter" wasn't intended to piss off well-intentioned white people who chose not to learn about the experience of black people in the USA. The phrase "all lives matter," which is true and non-controversial in it's ordinary meaning, takes away from the unique focus of this civil rights movement: it draws attention away from the root of the issue which institutional racism against African Americans.
    Yes. It should have been called 'Even Black Lives Matter' to ensure that the myopic understood.
    It's not funny.

  6. #131
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    It's not funny.

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    This is a Gonzaga message board where we are all fans so I feel inclined to make the following statement. Before making your opinions heard, consider them on a deeper level. If it's something you'd be uncomfortable saying to Coach Daniels or Sam Dower or Mark Few or Pargo or Demetri Goodson or the African American gentleman who attends your church, it's probably a really poor view. I would think our players would be really sad to know that some of our fans really don't respect or understand what black lives matter or the black American experience is all about.

    We literally love a sport that would be far worse without the African American contribution to it. I'd hope we can look beyond the love of the game to the people playing it and have appreciation and understanding about their life experiences and those of their families and friends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB4 View Post
    This is a Gonzaga message board where we are all fans so I feel inclined to make the following statement. Before making your opinions heard, consider them on a deeper level. If it's something you'd be uncomfortable saying to Coach Daniels or Sam Dower or Mark Few or Pargo or Demetri Goodson or the African American gentleman who attends your church, it's probably a really poor view. I would think our players would be really sad to know that some of our fans really don't respect or understand what black lives matter or the black American experience is all about.

    We literally love a sport that would be far worse without the African American contribution to it. I'd hope we can look beyond the love of the game to the people playing it and have appreciation and understanding about their life experiences and those of their families and friends.
    It's not funny.

  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB4 View Post
    This is a Gonzaga message board where we are all fans so I feel inclined to make the following statement. Before making your opinions heard, consider them on a deeper level. If it's something you'd be uncomfortable saying to Coach Daniels or Sam Dower or Mark Few or Pargo or Demetri Goodson or the African American gentleman who attends your church, it's probably a really poor view. I would think our players would be really sad to know that some of our fans really don't respect or understand what black lives matter or the black American experience is all about.
    "Black lives matter" is not the same as "the black american experience". Why are all these things getting lumped together? A black person experiencing prejudice is different than a political movement.

    Police brutality is an everyone problem. The police don't belong to white people.

    I never said "all lives matter" and i don't have to. It's understood. I also don't have to say "black lives matter" it's understood. It a political trick to use to try to obtain the moral high ground.

    No one is on the side of police brutality. No one is on the side of bigotry. Politicians don't solve problems, they exacerbate them because it benefits their position. The politics is getting people killed.
    We are on this earth to live, not to avoid death.

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    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...uOM-Zw72gyfmIV


    A friend of mine just posted this. While it's probably true, I think there's much more to the story than a body count. I do not know how to accept or reject what's going on.....I guess we all need to do a lot more.
    In SOuth Central LA, I put up a free clininc in a largely black neighborhood. 54th and Colisseum. They call it the "jungle". Me an my fellows tried very hard to be accepted by the community. I acquired a double wide trailor and got to work with 12 other guyes who were board certified in internal medicine and family medicine. Those trailers are still there, All of us were white. Even though we came to help, we never really accepted. Not trusted in many ways. I never understood it since perhaps naively, we thought we were there as a statement as much as to do good for the community.

    We have a long way to go. The whole situation doesn't seem to be working. We should be ONE. We aren't but , while the issues are many, we should be making progress. The media likes a good story and largely drives some of the culture. THis thing a few weeks ago could be easily come down to one bad policeman making a bad decision. It's gotten much bigger........driven by what? Many things....usually when a person ( cop or otherwise) kills someone, they get charged, put in jail and/or await trial. THis is what happened in the overall. This one got bigger, a scab was picked. hope things resolve.....much good awaits a solution..

  11. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by willandi View Post
    Calling people dummies and myopic isn’t helpful,Will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Markburn1 View Post
    Calling people dummies and myopic isn’t helpful,Will.
    Sorry about the meme, that was the way I found it.

    When people say the words that many say, when trying to argue against BLM, an argument that I believe borders on racism, in and of itself, the word myopic is one of the nicest I could find.
    It's not funny.

  13. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinfoilzag View Post
    "Black lives matter" is not the same as "the black american experience". Why are all these things getting lumped together? A black person experiencing prejudice is different than a political movement.

    Police brutality is an everyone problem. The police don't belong to white people.

    I never said "all lives matter" and i don't have to. It's understood. I also don't have to say "black lives matter" it's understood. It a political trick to use to try to obtain the moral high ground.

    No one is on the side of police brutality. No one is on the side of bigotry. Politicians don't solve problems, they exacerbate them because it benefits their position. The politics is getting people killed.
    Black lives matter is 100% about the black American experience, starting with the collective experience with police and law enforcement. I'd say it's a civil rights movement not a political one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tinfoilzag View Post
    "Black lives matter" is not the same as "the black american experience". Why are all these things getting lumped together? A black person experiencing prejudice is different than a political movement.

    Police brutality is an everyone problem. The police don't belong to white people.

    I never said "all lives matter" and i don't have to. It's understood. I also don't have to say "black lives matter" it's understood. It a political trick to use to try to obtain the moral high ground.

    No one is on the side of police brutality. No one is on the side of bigotry. Politicians don't solve problems, they exacerbate them because it benefits their position. The politics is getting people killed.
    It just appears to me that you just don’t get it and there is nothing anyone can say to help you truly understand...

    At present All Lives Matter but it just appears that Black Lives Matter Less!!! It is really difficult for European Americans to understand what African Americans have to go through on a daily basis!

    I find it amazing how with all the marches going on in city after city, that the police - with cameras rolling STILL are racial profiling and so many lack common sense like those two cops in Buffalo knocking down that 70+ man and then their whole unit resigned to support that total lack of common sense!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MDABE80 View Post
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...uOM-Zw72gyfmIV


    A friend of mine just posted this. While it's probably true, I think there's much more to the story than a body count. I do not know how to accept or reject what's going on.....I guess we all need to do a lot more.
    In SOuth Central LA, I put up a free clininc in a largely black neighborhood. 54th and Colisseum. They call it the "jungle". Me an my fellows tried very hard to be accepted by the community. I acquired a double wide trailor and got to work with 12 other guyes who were board certified in internal medicine and family medicine. Those trailers are still there, All of us were white. Even though we came to help, we never really accepted. Not trusted in many ways. I never understood it since perhaps naively, we thought we were there as a statement as much as to do good for the community.

    We have a long way to go. The whole situation doesn't seem to be working. We should be ONE. We aren't but , while the issues are many, we should be making progress. The media likes a good story and largely drives some of the culture. THis thing a few weeks ago could be easily come down to one bad policeman making a bad decision. It's gotten much bigger........driven by what? Many things....usually when a person ( cop or otherwise) kills someone, they get charged, put in jail and/or await trial. THis is what happened in the overall. This one got bigger, a scab was picked. hope things resolve.....much good awaits a solution..
    Thanks for posting this Abe.

    I have a similar story. My wife taught in an inner city high school for over 30 years. When my wife was hired, the high school had a black student union club. The black student union was founded by a couple of African American teachers and assisted by a Hispanic teacher while my wife was tagged with being the unofficial historian (history major) for the group. The club existed for several years with the average number of members being 10-15 in any given year. After operating for several years, the school administration decided the club was too narrow focused and renamed the club "RACE" (Racial and Cultural Equality) and requested the club open up their curriculum to be more inclusive for all students.

    So why did the School Administration request a change in the club? The racial issues within the school extended way beyond the African American community. Many of the immigrants brought issues from their homeland to the school; Russians vs Ukrainian's, Croatians vs Bosnians, Jewish vs Palestinians, Shiites vs Sunis, Mideastern males vs Mideastern females and so on. Having an exclusive club that did not address issues that impacted more of the school was not helpful to address the racial tensions in the school.

    The African American teachers who founded the club were not happy with the changes the Administration requested and promptly resigned. The Hispanic teacher did not want to lead the club, so the administrators asked my wife to run the new group. Since a club cannot exist at the school without an administrator or teacher to run the club, she agreed to run RACE. The club expanded to include all races, religions, members of the Gay (LGBTQ today) community, genders, and so on. Activities included a variety of community service projects in various areas of the community (low income, African American, Russian, Greek, Jewish, Hispanic, Native American, Asian, ect.) to give the kids a chance to interact with members of that community which they maybe ever had a reason to do before. In class assignments would have students from one race investigating the issues of another and making a presentation to the group (i.e. African Americans investigating the issues between the Russians and Ukrainians) to expand the knowledge of the entire group.

    The RACE group had yearly memberships as high as 150 students and the group won local and state awards for student groups and community service. Within the school, racial issues were virtually eliminated. The students knew they had a place they could take their disagreement and be heard in an non-judgmental setting and they did so. Numerous times a student with an issue came to my wife to get on the agenda and if it was an immediate issue, she would call an immediate meeting of the Race group to help the student.

    So what happened? The same thing that happens all the time. The local school administration decided that since there were really very few racial issues now occurring within the school, they really did not need the RACE club and removed the funding for the group. You can guess what happened after the RACE group was disbanded.

    Any solution that is going to work has to be inclusive of everyone.

    ZagDad
    Last edited by ZagDad84; 06-07-2020 at 04:12 PM. Reason: added Hispanics and Native Americans

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagDad84 View Post
    Thanks for posting this Abe.

    I have a similar story. My wife taught in an inner city high school for over 30 years. When my wife was hired, the high school had a black student union club. The black student union was founded by a couple of African American teachers and assisted by a Hispanic teacher while my wife was tagged with being the unofficial historian (history major) for the group. The club existed for several years with the average number of members being 10-15 in any given year. After operating for several years, the school administration decided the club was too narrow focused and renamed the club "RACE" (Racial and Cultural Equality) and requested the club open up their curriculum to be more inclusive for all students.

    So why did the School Administration request a change in the club? The racial issues within the school extended way beyond the African American community. Many of the immigrants brought issues from their homeland to the school; Russians vs Ukrainian's, Croatians vs Bosnians, Jewish vs Palestinians, Shiites vs Sunis, Mideastern males vs Mideastern females and so on. Having an exclusive club that did not address issues that impacted more of the school was not helpful to address the racial tensions in the school.

    The African American teachers who founded the club were not happy with the changes the Administration requested and promptly resigned. The Hispanic teacher did not want to lead the club, so the administrators asked my wife to run the new group. Since a club cannot exist at the school with an administrator or teacher to run the club, she agreed to run RACE. The club expanded to include all races, religions, members of the Gay (LGBTQ today) community, genders, and so on. Activities included a variety of community service projects in various areas of the community (low income, African American, Russian, Greek, Jewish, Hispanic, Native American, Asian, ect.) to give the kids a chance to interact with members of that community which they maybe ever had a reason to do before. In class assignments would have students from one race investigating the issues of another and making a presentation to the group (i.e. African Americans investigating the issues between the Russians and Ukrainians) to expand the knowledge of the entire group.

    The RACE group had yearly memberships as high as 150 students and the group won local and state awards for student groups and community service. Within the school, racial issues were virtually eliminated. The students knew they had a place they could take their disagreement and be heard in an non-judgmental setting and they did so. Numerous times a student with an issue came to my wife to get on the agenda and if it was an immediate issue, she would call an immediate meeting of the Race group to help the student.

    So what happened? The same thing that happens all the time. The local school administration decided that since there were really very few racial issues now occurring within the school, they really did not need the RACE club and removed the funding for the group. You can guess what happened after the RACE group was disbanded.

    Any solution that is going to work has to be inclusive of everyone.

    ZagDad
    Yes, inclusivity of all is what is needed but not sure when or even if that will happen in this generation...I’ve prayed long and hard for many years for this to come about...some progress has been made but no where enough...imo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogozags View Post
    It just appears to me that you just don’t get it and there is nothing anyone can say to help you truly understand...

    At present All Lives Matter but it just appears that Black Lives Matter Less!!! It is really difficult for European Americans to understand what African Americans have to go through on a daily basis!

    I find it amazing how with all the marches going on in city after city, that the police - with cameras rolling STILL are racial profiling and so many lack common sense like those two cops in Buffalo knocking down that 70+ man and then their whole unit resigned to support that total lack of common sense!!!
    Yet the 75 year old man that was knocked down was white.

    The 75 year old man initiated the confrontation, was asked to turn around several times, yet still insisted on confronting the police line. When he refuse to walk back the way he came he was pushed in the chest. Whether he fell down because of the push or fell down over his own feet (the push was not excessive) is not clear. Yes the police should not have pushed him. Just cuff him (failure to follow a police order), take him to the station and remove him from the situation. Get his info then let him go. No big deal. Dumb move by the police. On the other hand, why did the 75 year old man escalate the situation in the first place?

    Personally I did not see anything I would consider excessive use of force, but to each their own.

    The entire emergency police force resigned when the two Officers were suspended without pay while the police commission conducted an investigation. Could they have be placed on desk duty while the investigation was conducted? Certainly. Suspending the officers without pay was a political move and the emergency police force did not feel they had the support of the City officials, so they were not going to continue to put their lives on the line without the support of the City.

    Ugly all around.

    ZagDad

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    I did not expect to see this thread Gonzaga Basketball and Race when I checked in today. I appreciate the OP and, as the issue of race does, the revealing nature of the discussion and its participators that the OP generated.

    My dad was an Air Force Captain, please understand my respect for the Air Force. The below link includes statements from AF Chief of Staff David Goldfein in response to a tweet from Chief Master Seargent of the AF Kaleth Wright which you can read in the article.

    Goldfein lays out clearly, in my view, the head on approach needed to confront the 'systemic' nature of discrimination and racial prejudice we're discussing. I put systemic in quotes becasue that is the word Goldfein used. Maybe you've already read this, but I found it compelling for many reasons, but mostly for the matter-of-fact nature of his blunt assessment that the AF must confront its own systemic discrimination and racial prejudice.

    https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/y...-george-floyd/

    Goldfein’s follow-up memo said that Americans have to confront the awful reality of racism — and acknowledge that it also exists in the Air Force.

    “Sometimes it’s explicit, sometimes it’s subtle, but we are not immune to the spectrum of racial prejudice, systemic discrimination and unconscious bias,” Goldfein wrote. “We see this in the apparent inequity in our application of military justice. We will not shy away from this; as leaders and as airmen we will own our part and confront it head on.”

    “I don’t have the answers, but I do know there is no room for bigotry, hatred or small mindedness in our force,” Goldfein said. “Period. Every member of our team needs to know we have their back.”

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    and here, Air Force general Charles Brown Jr. gives his take, just an excerpt. I found it very powerful


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogozags View Post
    It just appears to me that you just don’t get it and there is nothing anyone can say to help you truly understand...

    At present All Lives Matter but it just appears that Black Lives Matter Less!!!
    Why would you think this? Who do you know or have met or have even heard make the statement black lives matter less? I may be blind as some claim but I work all over the country and in 20 years never met a person with the opinion that black lives matter less.

    I don't claim to know what it's like to be in anyone's shoes but my own.

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    This is a fascinating history of 'race riots' in America. Most of these are better classified as massacres, as they involve hordes of whites gunning down blacks en masse, with little or no consequences. I was shocked to see how little I knew about this part of our history.

    https://twitter.com/ericabuddington/...31249914601472

    Here's just one example: https://www.tulsahistory.org/exhibit...race-massacre/

    If you don't understand where people get the idea that we have a problem valuing black lives, there is information out there to help. Nobody is stopping you from doing your own research. I've heard that the "13th" documentary is a good place to start.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scrooner View Post
    This is a fascinating history of 'race riots' in America. Most of these are better classified as massacres, as they involve hordes of whites gunning down blacks en masse, with little or no consequences. I was shocked to see how little I knew about this part of our history.

    https://twitter.com/ericabuddington/...31249914601472

    Here's just one example: https://www.tulsahistory.org/exhibit...race-massacre/

    If you don't understand where people get the idea that we have a problem valuing black lives, there is information out there to help. Nobody is stopping you from doing your own research. I've heard that the "13th" documentary is a good place to start.
    It was acceptable to treat others badly based on their race 50 years ago in this country. There was a civil rights movement and the country decided to stop that and wrote laws to back it up. There are many atrocities in this country's history and fortunately most of the people responsible for them are now dead. We should remember the trail of tears, Japanese internment camps, or the ones you presented but only as a lesson and not to find reasons to hate each other.

    It's been my experience that bigoted stances are not tolerated social or legally in today's society (in the US).

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    Good story with a couple of cavaets.

    You forgot the part where most of the 57 officers just walked by the guy as he was laying there, bleeding profusely from his ear.

    And you forgot the part where they LIED and said the victim “tripped and fell”.

    Your story left those parts out.



    Quote Originally Posted by ZagDad84 View Post
    Yet the 75 year old man that was knocked down was white.

    The 75 year old man initiated the confrontation, was asked to turn around several times, yet still insisted on confronting the police line. When he refuse to walk back the way he came he was pushed in the chest. Whether he fell down because of the push or fell down over his own feet (the push was not excessive) is not clear. Yes the police should not have pushed him. Just cuff him (failure to follow a police order), take him to the station and remove him from the situation. Get his info then let him go. No big deal. Dumb move by the police. On the other hand, why did the 75 year old man escalate the situation in the first place?

    Personally I did not see anything I would consider excessive use of force, but to each their own.

    The entire emergency police force resigned when the two Officers were suspended without pay while the police commission conducted an investigation. Could they have be placed on desk duty while the investigation was conducted? Certainly. Suspending the officers without pay was a political move and the emergency police force did not feel they had the support of the City officials, so they were not going to continue to put their lives on the line without the support of the City.

    Ugly all around.

    ZagDad
    gobroncsgozags: "Have a great day in the podunk, crap hole known as Roslyn."

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    Quote Originally Posted by tinfoilzag View Post
    It was acceptable to treat others badly based on their race 50 years ago in this country. There was a civil rights movement and the country decided to stop that and wrote laws to back it up. There are many atrocities in this country's history and fortunately most of the people responsible for them are now dead. We should remember the trail of tears, Japanese internment camps, or the ones you presented but only as a lesson and not to find reasons to hate each other.

    It's been my experience that bigoted stances are not tolerated social or legally in today's society (in the US).
    I'll have to assume that you next to nothing about the Ahmaud Arbery case. It's like you're participating in a class discussion without having read the book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scrooner View Post
    I'll have to assume that you next to nothing about the Ahmaud Arbery case. It's like you're participating in a class discussion without having read the book.
    There’s more than one book.

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