Race thread (will be moved on Monday night)

[Kong-Kool-Aid]

Kong-Kool-Aid - You've twice suggested the USA federally conduct some kind of process modeled on the Truth and Reconciliation commission in South Africa from 1996, which of course sought to hear from citizens and government officials who had oppressed them under their legally enforced segregation, which had ended 3-4 years earlier. I'm not necessarily opposed to some kind of analogous process federally in the USA, but who would such a commission hear from, since any allowed segregation or racial discrimination in hiring, gathering, commerce, and employment ended with the civil rights act (1964) or Fair Housing Act (1968), 52 and 56 years ago respectively, a span longer than Appomattox to Versaille. I'm not saying personal racism or casual illegal discrimination did not continue, but that wasn't the subject of national Truth and Reconciliation commissions. Nobody who was in the federal government prior to those bills is still serving, almost none are even alive. Would the commission you envision be more academic/historical/researching in nature? Do you expect it would uncover information as-yet unknown about the era of Jim Crow, which would prove beneficial to Black americans? Again, I'm open to this scenario but I'm curious what new knowledge you hope such a commission would produce and how such production would be used to benefit folks today.

Actually, I'd like to see something modeled after the Canadian model, which has grown from what was done in South Africa. You don't have to only speak to people who were in alive during times of segregation, but leaders in oppressed communities now, and how the lingering effects of slavery, segregation, and systematic racism effects them and their communities now. Yes it should look towards righting the wrongs of the past, but it should also look at the real and lasting impacts on the black community today. How can the government begin to help the community, how can we as a whole country eliminate the inequalities that exist.

The TCR in Canada came up with 94 calls to action which the government is expected to follow through with in order to move towards fixing some of these issues. I won't list them here because it's a different country and a different situation (historically speaking), but the systematic racism and oppression exists in both countries. The commission focused on broad areas such as Child Welfare, Education, Health, Culture, Justice Rights, Equity for Aboriginal people in the legal system, and so forth.

Ultimately the government and the people need to acknowledge that the system is broken right now and it is up to everyone to change. The government needs to lead that change.

[Kong-Kool-Aid]

This is a reboot of the ol' doctrine of indulgences scheme where the priests decide who is a sinner and you have to pay for forgiveness and the sins of your father.

I share Martin Luther King's dream "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

This thread seemed too civil, I'd thought I'd bring the Protestant Reformation into it.

As MLK also said:
"We cannot have an enlightened democracy with one great group living in ignorance."
"We cannot be truly Christian people so long as we flaunt the central teachings of Jesus: brotherly love and the Golden Rule. We cannot come to full prosperity with one great group so ill-delayed that it cannot buy goods. So as we gird ourselves to defend democracy from foreign attack, let us see to it that increasingly at home we give fair play and free opportunity for all people."

"First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action’; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a ‘more convenient season.’ Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will.”

I find it ironic that you share in MLKs thoughts but seem not to be willing to sacrifice to achieve it. How you question whether it's right to pay for the sins of your fathers, but not question whether it's right to benefit from the sins of your fathers.

[sonuvazag]

From day 1 the persons who didn't like his protest felt that way because it disrespected the flag (and what it stood for).

Which is why he took the advice of a former green beret and started kneeling instead of sitting as a compromise. And, yes, in his first public comments to explain his actions, he mentioned police brutality.

https://www.npr.org/2018/09/09/64611...to-take-a-knee

[jazzdelmar]

One could reasonably make the case that kneeling in silence is even more reverential than standing. Kap needed a good p.r. person.

[jazzdelmar]

This is a reboot of the ol' doctrine of indulgences scheme where the priests decide who is a sinner and you have to pay for forgiveness and the sins of your father.

I share Martin Luther King's dream "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

This thread seemed too civil, I'd thought I'd bring the Protestant Reformation into it.

Sorry, Tin. No more room on the wall.

[LongIslandZagFan]

From day 1 the persons who didn't like his protest felt that way because it disrespected the flag (and what it stood for).

and you get that, for him, it didn't feel that it stood for him anymore as a black man? JMHO... That shouldn't make you angry at him. It should make you made that he is made to feel that way.

[tinfoilzag]

I find it ironic that you share in MLKs thoughts but seem not to be willing to sacrifice to achieve it. How you question whether it's right to pay for the sins of your fathers, but not question whether it's right to benefit from the sins of your fathers.

Sacrifice to who? God has already sacrificed for our sins. I will not accept a debt that is assigned to me without choice.

Justice is based on an agreement between reasonable parties on what is fair. Demanding concessions under threat of violence is extortion.

[sonuvazag]

and you get that, for him, it didn't feel that it stood for him anymore as a black man? JMHO... That shouldn't make you angry at him. It should make you made that he is made to feel that way.

That's almost exactly what Boyer said in the article I linked earlier:

I don't think people should stand with pride for something that they don't believe in, period. I just don't think that. I think if you don't feel that way, then let's fix it. Let's work together to make this situation better. Because I want you to want to stand. I want you to want to feel that same type of pride that I feel.

[Kong-Kool-Aid]

Sacrifice to who? God has already sacrificed for our sins. I will not accept a debt that is assigned to me without choice.

Justice is based on an agreement between reasonable parties on what is fair. Demanding concessions under threat of violence is extortion.

Pretty simple really, acknowledge your privilege, be willing to let go of that privilege to allow others the same opportunities.

[tinfoilzag]

Pretty simple really, acknowledge your privilege, be willing to let go of that privilege to allow others the same opportunities.

Your statement appears to be based on a false premise: That one person's opportunity comes at the cost of some other's opportunity. There is no set amount of opportunity (or wealth for that matter). Opportunity can be created and destroyed and there is no set limit to it.

As for "acknowledge your privilege", that's also known as contrition and I'll keep that between me and God.

[sonuvazag]

Your statement appears to be based on a false premise: That one person's opportunity comes at the cost of some other's opportunity. There is no set amount of opportunity (or wealth for that matter). Opportunity can be created and destroyed and there is no set limit to it.

As for "acknowledge your privilege", that's also known as contrition and I'll keep that between me and God.

Those that want you to "acknowledge your privilege" are not necessarily looking for you to be contrite so much as to be aware of how your experience and point of view are shaped by your social position.

[zagdontzig]

Here are some of Coach Few's thoughts on the issue:

"Like many of you, I am sickened and appalled of what happened to George Floyd and unfortunately too many others over the years," he said. "There's been a long history of racial injustice that is sadly still a part of our current reality."

Few said canceling team activities on Election Day will help players understand the significance of the day.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-ba...aches-join-him

[tinfoilzag]

Those that want you to "acknowledge your privilege" are not necessarily looking for you to be contrite so much as to be aware of how your experience and point of view are shaped by your social position.

I know that's what is said but that's a class argument. If the ask is "know thyself", I'm down. It's good advice for everyone. If the ask is "because you are white, you should feel bad and you owe me", there's a problem.

[TexasZagFan]

To me, and it is just my opinion, the first place to start is to identify those LEO that are members of hate groups. It probably would not be legal to fire them because they do have a right to join them, but their duties can be limited to fields where they are least likely to have a detrimental effect. Some, like the Police chief in Minneapolis, need to be dealt with some how and some way. There are many in the community that have identified him as racist. But not JUST racist cops. Those cops that have been accused of excessive force, and more. Start by identifying the problem ones and work harder to ensure that new hires don't come in with those attitudes, and make the ones that cause problems be accountable.

The second idea, and again it's mine, would be to have school districts start building new schools in the inner city neighborhoods that propagate much of the problem kids. Build state of the art, the best of the best, the best teachers...good enough that white kids want to transfer in to take advantage of the benefits. Sadly, there would also need to be security measures built in, to protect the school and the students against all that don't want the success. Many Black students have described how they have had to hide their accomplishments because of pressure from the hood.
If the neighborhood can be improved from the inside, not just slum apartment buildings, but by educating the people there so they can lift themselves up, it would be another start.

There is no one answer to eradicating racism. Those two ideas are mine as a place to start. Please feel free to present your own.

Great ideas, will. This thread has been making me reflect more, to seek to be more open minded on the path forward.

[TexasZagFan]

Wishing Mom & baby well, TZF.

Thanks 50! Granddaughter arrived at 11:50 last night, 5 pounds, 4 ounces (3 weeks early). Mom and baby are doing great...don't know about Dad, though...lol. She's their first child, and he's coming to grips with how his life will change...for the better, of course.

[TexasZagFan]

See, this kind of crass political pandering does not help the cause. Biden's "Deplorables" moment. Shameful and dumb. That's 50 million people.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/04/u...od-people.html

WTF does that mean, and he needs to be more specific. Couldn't the Democrats come up with a better candidate? There has to be a few Democrats out there that I could vote for in November. My first two votes went to McGovern and Carter, both served in the military BTW. I didn't vote for Trump in 2016, either.

[Kong-Kool-Aid]

I know that's what is said but that's a class argument. If the ask is "know thyself", I'm down. It's good advice for everyone. If the ask is "because you are white, you should feel bad and you owe me", there's a problem.

Because you are white you are afforded privileges and opportunities that those who are black do not enjoy to the same degree. Acknowledge that and the question becomes, do you think this is something that should change?

[zagdontzig]

I know that's what is said but that's a class argument. If the ask is "know thyself", I'm down. It's good advice for everyone. If the ask is "because you are white, you should feel bad and you owe me", there's a problem.

I think the "ask" is if you're human, you should feel compelled to unite against racial injustice. The "not my problem" mindset is what's troubling.

[TexasZagFan]

Yeah... IMHO... 15% is too low.

Explain and clarify, please. I completely disagree with you. I think that number is much lower...heavens, we have upwards of 50 million "bad people" in the United States. My anecdotal life experiences do not support that. Don't leave the thread LIZF, we are engaging each other in an open forum, without the filters imposed on us by the extremes from the left and right.

Let's keep the discussion going...please!

[TexasZagFan]

This is a reboot of the ol' doctrine of indulgences scheme where the priests decide who is a sinner and you have to pay for forgiveness and the sins of your father.

I share Martin Luther King's dream "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

This thread seemed too civil, I'd thought I'd bring the Protestant Reformation into it.

I'm old enough, but not yet too feeble minded, to remember seeing Dr. King's speech live on TV. Even at the tender age of 9, his words resonated with me. How I long for everyone to be judged by the content of the character. Unfortunately, I've seen too little of that since I left the Army 36 years ago.

[TexasZagFan]

Because you are white you are afforded privileges and opportunities that those who are black do not enjoy to the same degree. Acknowledge that and the question becomes, do you think this is something that should change?

Allow me a slight edit:

Because you are wealthy, you are afforded privileges and opportunities than those who are not wealthy who do not enjoy to the same degree. Acknowledge that and the question becomes, do you think this is something that should change?

What would you really expect me to do, Kong? My children are 50% Hispanic, and my grandson (a 9 YO 25% Hispanic) attends a school whose demographics start at 80% South Asian. My wife and I have built a good life for ourselves, comfortable but hardly wealthy. If you're looking me to genuflect and apologize to Antifa and Black Lives Matter, that is simply a nonstarter.

For all of their passion, professional athletes aren't seeking to bring people to their cause, not with their "my way or the highway" tactics, which IMHO you presume to endorse.

I'm willing to continue to engage you in conversation, but that's my reality and my truth.

[LongIslandZagFan]

Explain and clarify, please. I completely disagree with you. I think that number is much lower...heavens, we have upwards of 50 million "bad people" in the United States. My anecdotal life experiences do not support that. Don't leave the thread LIZF, we are engaging each other in an open forum, without the filters imposed on us by the extremes from the left and right.

Let's keep the discussion going...please!

Outright racists would qualify right off the bat... back on a 2006 poll 13% of whites said they considered themselves racially biased (I would read that as racist as I don't see how you could not)

Add in violent criminals, drug dealers, domestic abusers, child abusers, child molesters, and similar... I am SURE you can get to over 15%.

[Kong-Kool-Aid]

Allow me a slight edit:

Because you are wealthy, you are afforded privileges and opportunities than those who are not wealthy who do not enjoy to the same degree. Acknowledge that and the question becomes, do you think this is something that should change?

What would you really expect me to do, Kong? My children are 50% Hispanic, and my grandson (a 9 YO 25% Hispanic) attends a school whose demographics start at 80% South Asian. My wife and I have built a good life for ourselves, comfortable but hardly wealthy. If you're looking me to genuflect and apologize to Antifa and Black Lives Matter, that is simply a nonstarter.

For all of their passion, professional athletes aren't seeking to bring people to their cause, not with their "my way or the highway" tactics, which IMHO you presume to endorse.

I'm willing to continue to engage you in conversation, but that's my reality and my truth.

I'm going to quote Dr. King again because it is appropriate today as it was then. I really hope people read it.

"The new phase is a struggle for genuine equality. It is not merely a struggle for decency now, it is not merely a struggle to get rid of the brutality of a Bull Connor and a Jim Clark. It is now a struggle for genuine equality on all levels, and this will be a much more difficult struggle. You see, the gains in the first period, or the first era of struggle, were obtained from the power structure at bargain rates; it didn’t cost the nation anything to integrate lunch counters. It didn’t cost the nation anything to integrate hotels and motels. It didn’t cost the nation a penny to guarantee the right to vote. Now we are in a period where it will cost the nation billions of dollars to get rid of poverty, to get rid of slums, to make quality integrated education a reality. This is where we are now. Now we’re going to lose some friends in this period. The allies who were with us in Selma will not all stay with us during this period. We’ve got to understand what is happening. Now they often call this the white backlash … It’s just a new name for an old phenomenon. The fact is that there has never been any single, solid, determined commitment on the part of the vast majority of white Americans to genuine equality for Negroes. "

"There has always been ambivalence … In 1863 the Negro was granted freedom from physical slavery through the Emancipation Proclamation. But he was not given land to make that freedom meaningful. At the same time, our government was giving away millions of acres of land in the Midwest and the West, which meant that the nation was willing to undergird its white peasants from Europe with an economic floor, while refusing to do it for its black peasants from Africa who were held in slavery two hundred and forty four years. And this is why Frederick Douglass would say that emancipation for the Negro was freedom to hunger, freedom to the winds and rains of heaven, freedom without roofs to cover their heads. It was freedom without bread to eat, without land to cultivate. It was freedom and famine at the same time. And it is a miracle that the Negro has survived."

"The second evil that I want to deal with is the evil of poverty. Like a monstrous octopus it spreads its nagging prehensile tentacles into cities and hamlets and villages all over our nation. Some forty million of our brothers and sisters are poverty stricken, unable to gain the basic necessities of life. And so often we allow them to become invisible because our society’s so affluent that we don’t see the poor. Some of them are Mexican Americans. Some of them are Indians. Some are Puerto Ricans. Some are Appalachian whites. The vast majority are Negroes in proportion to their size in the population … Now there is nothing new about poverty. It’s been with us for years and centuries. What is new at this point though, is that we now have the resources, we now have the skills, we now have the techniques to get rid of poverty. And the question is whether our nation has the will …"

The opportunities you are afforded to BE wealthy have a great deal to do with the color of your skin.
I'd expect anyone to listen to the reasons why the black community are calling out, be willing to lend your voice and support to that movement and acknowledge that systematic racism is a problem that needs to be dealt with. Be willing to lose some of your advantages that have come like it or not as a result of the history of the country.

[LongIslandZagFan]

Allow me a slight edit:

Because you are wealthy, you are afforded privileges and opportunities than those who are not wealthy who do not enjoy to the same degree. Acknowledge that and the question becomes, do you think this is something that should change?

What would you really expect me to do, Kong? My children are 50% Hispanic, and my grandson (a 9 YO 25% Hispanic) attends a school whose demographics start at 80% South Asian. My wife and I have built a good life for ourselves, comfortable but hardly wealthy. If you're looking me to genuflect and apologize to Antifa and Black Lives Matter, that is simply a nonstarter.

For all of their passion, professional athletes aren't seeking to bring people to their cause, not with their "my way or the highway" tactics, which IMHO you presume to endorse.

I'm willing to continue to engage you in conversation, but that's my reality and my truth.

White and poor are still more privileged than a black middle class man... white and poor doesn't get pulled over for being poor and white... doesn't get stopped and frisked for being poor and white... doesn't get cops called on them for being poor and white in public... that middle class black man... not living that reality at all.

Also, lumping BLM in with Antifa is disingenuous at best.

[tinfoilzag]

Because you are white you are afforded privileges and opportunities that those who are black do not enjoy to the same degree. Acknowledge that and the question becomes, do you think this is something that should change?

I think the "ask" is if you're human, you should feel compelled to unite against racial injustice. The "not my problem" mindset is what's troubling.

I think we've identified the problem then. I have no faith in "white privilege" "implicit bias" or "social justice" and if I don't believe, I can't be saved (I'll have to live with that). There is a possible solution though.

Scientology has e-meters that can measure your thetan levels and will cleanse your static field for a fee. If we could get similar e-meters that measure injustice and privilege, we could cleanse people and give the money to non-profit organizations that fight for change or some other platitude.

All snark aside, I'm glad this board will let people disagree. I don't think anyone's mind will change but if we are talking, we aren't fighting. Go Zags.