Race thread (will be moved on Monday night)

[ZagDad84]

You're missing the forest for the trees. Our country doesn't have an history of enslaving, then oppressing white people. In fact, we had a federal statute that made extrajudicial lynching of "colored people" lawful on the books until 2007, while obviously not being enforced as such.

No one is arguing that crime is bad by and against any race, but you're opinion is inconsistent with the overwhelming weight of evidence that black people continue to be grossly oppressed. Your individual cases are obvious red herrings.

O'K, you got me.

I simply pointed out that a very similar case involving a white woman was handled and treated very differently by the mass media and the BLM. That unjustified excessive use of force and lethal force by the police department is not exclusive to the black community. That is a 100% correct statement, not a "red herring" as you put it. You want more, Otto Zehm right here in Spokane, beaten to death by a police officer because he felt he was threatened by a deadly 2-liter bottle of soda. The issue is to solve the problem not keep arguing about how one race is more mistreated than another, which gets nobody anywhere.

Where did I ever propose an opinion that black people are not continuing to be grossly oppressed?

I have not posted a response on systemic racism in the US because that is undeniable and certainly needs to be addressed.

ZagDad

[Kong-Kool-Aid]

White privilege is a thing.

Systematic racism is a thing.

Again, until the United States follows other countries leads in looking towards Truth and Reconciliation, and then actively works towards achieving the end goals of fixing the still lingering effects of a societal structure built on racism and white privilege. These protests will continue, as they should.

[Kong-Kool-Aid]

O'K, you got me.

I simply pointed out that a very similar case involving a white woman was handled and treated very differently by the mass media and the BLM. That unjustified excessive use of force and lethal force by the police department is not exclusive to the black community. That is a 100% correct statement, not a "red herring" as you put it. You want more, Otto Zehm right here in Spokane, beaten to death by a police officer because he felt he was threatened by a deadly 2-liter bottle of soda. The issue is to solve the problem not keep arguing about how one race is more mistreated than another, which gets nobody anywhere.

Where did I ever propose an opinion that black people are not continuing to be grossly oppressed?

I have not posted a response on systemic racism in the US because that is undeniable and certainly needs to be addressed.

ZagDad

What does pointing out other injustices have to do with anything? whataboutism at it's finest.

" The issue is to solve the problem not keep arguing about how one race is more mistreated than another"

How is this even an argument? It's an undeniable truth. No problems can be solved without people being able to recognize this.

[willandi]

[LTownZag]

SHUT THIS THREAD DOWN. Some of the posts on here are horrifying and will or should horrify many of those associated with the program and the University and those considering being associated with it. Take it elsewhere or better yet consult with someone that is directly affected by the systematic racism in this country before expressing your opinion on something you haven’t experienced.

I think everyone this far has been respectful and fairly polite! Even views I disagree with have been stated clearly and honestly and I don’t see caricatures or straw men or ad hominems being used.

Nice work Zag fans!
Actually

[Markburn1]

White privilege is a thing.

Systematic racism is a thing.

Again, until the United States follows other countries leads in looking towards Truth and Reconciliation, and then actively works towards achieving the end goals of fixing the still lingering effects of a societal structure built on racism and white privilege. These protests will continue, as they should.

Claiming racism has been solved to a greater degree in other countries is incorrect. Many, if not most, countries have as big or bigger issues in that regard.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Europe

Europe is supposed to be the enlightened continent. Nope

It’s even worse in Asia and Africa.

Racism is everywhere. In point of fact, everyone here is or has been guilty of it at one time or another. And it isn’t limited to people of white European descent.

There’s a lot of work to do.

[Kong-Kool-Aid]

Claiming racism has been solved to a greater degree in other countries is incorrect. Many, if not most, countries have as big or bigger issues in that regard.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Europe

Europe is supposed to be the enlightened continent. Nope

It’s even worse in Asia and Africa.

Racism is everywhere. In point of fact, everyone here is or has been guilty of it at one time or another. And it isn’t limited to people of white European descent.

There’s a lot of work to do.

I've not made that claim once. Not sure how you got that from what I said.

My suggestion is the government take direct action and look at ways in which America as a whole can look to work towards erasing the inequalities of the past, and then implement a real plan in order to fix those issues

Fact of the matter is that white Americans have privileges and opportunities that black Americans simply do not have because of the systematic racism that exists and the undeniable fact that the system we have now is built upon slavery and oppressing those who were not white.

It's not going to be an overnight fix, but ignoring the issues will never make things better.

Other countries who have taken steps to acknowledge systematic racism in their countries and devise plans to fix these inequalities include Canada, New Zealand and South Africa. And though I shouldn't have to point it out.. but no, systematic racism has not disappeared in those countries, but the framework is in place, and there are actionable plans that will hopefully move things in a positive direction and improve lives for everyone in the future.

[LongIslandZagFan]

The lack of understanding and outright falsehoods on this thread is both mind blowing and outright sad. This is exactly why nothing will change this time around or the next or the next. It will never change... mostly due to the same mindset on this thread. We as a whole lack the compassion And the backbone to make any substantive change. Makes me sad for our country. As a sign in a protest in Spain said... America, we are watching you.

[Kong-Kool-Aid]

The lack of understanding and outright falsehoods on this thread is both mind blowing and outright sad. This is exactly why nothing will change this time around or the next or the next. It will never change... mostly due to the same mindset on this thread. We as a whole lack the compassion And the backbone to make any substantive change. Makes me sad for our country. As a sign in a protest in Spain said... America, we are watching you.

Absolutely agree 100%

[LTownZag]

The lack of understanding and outright falsehoods on this thread is both mind blowing and outright sad. This is exactly why nothing will change this time around or the next or the next. It will never change... mostly due to the same mindset on this thread. We as a whole lack the compassion And the backbone to make any substantive change. Makes me sad for our country. As a sign in a protest in Spain said... America, we are watching you.

Hey LIZF - I appreciate and respect you and am grateful for your contributions here. I'm curious what a couple of the outright falsehoods are. I see folks displaying different sorts of tones or opinions or "moods" but I'm genuinely haven't noticed mind-blowing outright falsehoods which you said you did. Perhaps if I have, and I didn't notice it, then I didn't know something was false and I ought to know.


Kong-Kool-Aid - You've twice suggested the USA federally conduct some kind of process modeled on the Truth and Reconciliation commission in South Africa from 1996, which of course sought to hear from citizens and government officials who had oppressed them under their legally enforced segregation, which had ended 3-4 years earlier. I'm not necessarily opposed to some kind of analogous process federally in the USA, but who would such a commission hear from, since any allowed segregation or racial discrimination in hiring, gathering, commerce, and employment ended with the civil rights act (1964) or Fair Housing Act (1968), 52 and 56 years ago respectively, a span longer than Appomattox to Versaille. I'm not saying personal racism or casual illegal discrimination did not continue, but that wasn't the subject of national Truth and Reconciliation commissions. Nobody who was in the federal government prior to those bills is still serving, almost none are even alive. Would the commission you envision be more academic/historical/researching in nature? Do you expect it would uncover information as-yet unknown about the era of Jim Crow, which would prove beneficial to Black americans? Again, I'm open to this scenario but I'm curious what new knowledge you hope such a commission would produce and how such production would be used to benefit folks today.

[TexasZagFan]

Hey LIZF - I appreciate and respect you and am grateful for your contributions here. I'm curious what a couple of the outright falsehoods are. I see folks displaying different sorts of tones or opinions or "moods" but I'm genuinely haven't noticed mind-blowing outright falsehoods. Perhaps if I have, and I didn't notice it, then I didn't know something was false and I ought to know.


Kong-Kool-Aid - You've twice suggested the USA federally conduct some kind of process modeled on the Truth and Reconciliation commission in South Africa from 1996, which of course sought to hear from citizens and government officials who had oppressed them under apartheid, which ended 3-4 years earlier. I'm not necessarily opposed to some kind of analogous process federally in the USA, but who would such a commission hear from, since any legally allowed segregation or racial discrimination in hiring, gathering, and employment ended with the civil rights act (1964) or Fair Housing Act (1968), 52 and 56 years ago respectively, longer than Appomattox to Versaille. Nobody who was in the federal government prior to those bills is still serving, almost none are alive. Would the commission you envision be more academic/historical? Do you expect it would uncover information as-yet unknown about the era of Jim Crow, which would prove beneficial to Black americans? Again, I'm open to this scenario but I'm curious what new knowledge you hope such a commission would produce and how such production would be used to benefit folks today.

I was thinking along the same lines, though not in the detail that you wrote. Why can't we have honest discussions of the path forward, post Civil Rights Act, without the name calling and political posturing? We are rapidly approaching a $30 trillion deficit, it's simply not sustainable, and our children and grandchildren are going to suffer for it.

Grandchildren has extra meaning to me tonight, my granddaughter will be born within the next hour...they entered the OR about ten minutes ago.

[MDABE80]

School us LIZ and Kong. I’m just watching. But this thread should be moved not shutdown like Beardown” recommended.

[willandi]

To me, and it is just my opinion, the first place to start is to identify those LEO that are members of hate groups. It probably would not be legal to fire them because they do have a right to join them, but their duties can be limited to fields where they are least likely to have a detrimental effect. Some, like the Police chief in Minneapolis, need to be dealt with some how and some way. There are many in the community that have identified him as racist. But not JUST racist cops. Those cops that have been accused of excessive force, and more. Start by identifying the problem ones and work harder to ensure that new hires don't come in with those attitudes, and make the ones that cause problems be accountable.

The second idea, and again it's mine, would be to have school districts start building new schools in the inner city neighborhoods that propagate much of the problem kids. Build state of the art, the best of the best, the best teachers...good enough that white kids want to transfer in to take advantage of the benefits. Sadly, there would also need to be security measures built in, to protect the school and the students against all that don't want the success. Many Black students have described how they have had to hide their accomplishments because of pressure from the hood.
If the neighborhood can be improved from the inside, not just slum apartment buildings, but by educating the people there so they can lift themselves up, it would be another start.

There is no one answer to eradicating racism. Those two ideas are mine as a place to start. Please feel free to present your own.

[sittingon50]

I was thinking along the same lines, though not in the detail that you wrote. Why can't we have honest discussions of the path forward, post Civil Rights Act, without the name calling and political posturing? We are rapidly approaching a $30 trillion deficit, it's simply not sustainable, and our children and grandchildren are going to suffer for it.

Grandchildren has extra meaning to me tonight, my granddaughter will be born within the next hour...they entered the OR about ten minutes ago.

Wishing Mom & baby well, TZF.

[zagdontzig]

O'K, you got me.

I simply pointed out that a very similar case involving a white woman was handled and treated very differently by the mass media and the BLM. That unjustified excessive use of force and lethal force by the police department is not exclusive to the black community. That is a 100% correct statement, not a "red herring" as you put it. You want more, Otto Zehm right here in Spokane, beaten to death by a police officer because he felt he was threatened by a deadly 2-liter bottle of soda. The issue is to solve the problem not keep arguing about how one race is more mistreated than another, which gets nobody anywhere.

Where did I ever propose an opinion that black people are not continuing to be grossly oppressed?

I have not posted a response on systemic racism in the US because that is undeniable and certainly needs to be addressed.

ZagDad

I’m not trying to “get you.” Not clear initially, it appears we broadly see eye-to-eye.

[Fonebone]

I appreciate that the mods left this thread open. I assume that has not been an easy decision, and I also assume part of the reason it’s left open is a recognition of the importance of this topic, at this specific time.

Also while there are clearly posters with fundamentally different perspectives, I’m encouraged by the fact that for the most part folks are respectful. We are all, every one of us, only seeing a piece of the puzzle, those we disagree with are only seeing a different piece.

The piece of the puzzle that I’m seeing right now is that if some of us had lived some of the experiences we’ve read about Sam Dower experiencing, there would be a major shift in which piece of reality carried more weight as we thought about these issues.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bogozags]

I was thinking along the same lines, though not in the detail that you wrote. Why can't we have honest discussions of the path forward, post Civil Rights Act, without the name calling and political posturing? We are rapidly approaching a $30 trillion deficit, it's simply not sustainable, and our children and grandchildren are going to suffer for it.

Grandchildren has extra meaning to me tonight, my granddaughter will be born within the next hour...they entered the OR about ten minutes ago.

TZF first off, CONGRATULATIONS on the arrival of your first granddaughter!!! We have one and she is two years younger than her brother and so much more advanced than her brother at the same age!!! I just enjoy watching both grow and just hope I will be around when they graduate from high school...the four year old brother is constantly using his iPhone X...it is just amazing

[jazzdelmar]

See, this kind of crass political pandering does not help the cause. Biden's "Deplorables" moment. Shameful and dumb. That's 50 million people.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/04/u...od-people.html

[LongIslandZagFan]

Hey LIZF - I appreciate and respect you and am grateful for your contributions here. I'm curious what a couple of the outright falsehoods are. I see folks displaying different sorts of tones or opinions or "moods" but I'm genuinely haven't noticed mind-blowing outright falsehoods which you said you did. Perhaps if I have, and I didn't notice it, then I didn't know something was false and I ought to know.


Kong-Kool-Aid - You've twice suggested the USA federally conduct some kind of process modeled on the Truth and Reconciliation commission in South Africa from 1996, which of course sought to hear from citizens and government officials who had oppressed them under their legally enforced segregation, which had ended 3-4 years earlier. I'm not necessarily opposed to some kind of analogous process federally in the USA, but who would such a commission hear from, since any allowed segregation or racial discrimination in hiring, gathering, commerce, and employment ended with the civil rights act (1964) or Fair Housing Act (1968), 52 and 56 years ago respectively, a span longer than Appomattox to Versaille. I'm not saying personal racism or casual illegal discrimination did not continue, but that wasn't the subject of national Truth and Reconciliation commissions. Nobody who was in the federal government prior to those bills is still serving, almost none are even alive. Would the commission you envision be more academic/historical/researching in nature? Do you expect it would uncover information as-yet unknown about the era of Jim Crow, which would prove beneficial to Black americans? Again, I'm open to this scenario but I'm curious what new knowledge you hope such a commission would produce and how such production would be used to benefit folks today.

Gladly... The idea that Kaepernick was kneeling to protest the flag at the beginning and then shifted it... that is an outright falsehood. From day 1 of him kneeling it was about inequality at the hands of the police.

What saddens me is the whataboutisms used to attack BLM. An unarmed white woman is killed by a police officer in Minneapolis... and BLM didn't protest enough? Oh and the effort to point out the cop was black. What saddens me is the idea that gee Europe is racist... Africa is racist (again need to make sure we include POC) and acting like we are somehow better... we aren't. We have white people with their long guns lining the sides of a protest march trying to intimidate BLM and others out to protest. We aren't better... we are the same or worse than many countries. Heck, we still have Jim Crow on the books and when a state fixes them... governors refuse to enforce them (removing voting rights of felons who have served their time and have been released). If you don't think that is a Jim Crow law... look it up. The idea that the rioter are in the protests themselves... most of the rioting is happening AFTER the protests are over... in NYC more often than not it is not anywhere near where protests are taking place. But to tie the two together is a nice easy way to blame BLM. Speaking of BLM... I am actually shocked that to this point we haven't heard All lives matter... well of course they do... just the way our society functions right now... black peoples matter less and continue to matter less.

Take that for what it is. I am done with this thread on my side. But I will say that all this thread did was solidify my opinion that nothing will ever change and this is just another one that will go by the wayside... like they always do... It is what America does. We feign outrage and do nothing. THAT is what truly makes me sad. I am done with this thread. I disagree with the idea that it should be moved... because that is part and parcel of how we as a society deal with this type of thing. Make it go away. It has everything to do with basketball... it has to do with Zags basketball (Mr. Dower and Mr. Suggs are two very notable people from the area). I'd like to say I will read more of this thread, but not sure I will.

[LongIslandZagFan]

See, this kind of crass political pandering does not help the cause. Biden's "Deplorables" moment. Shameful and dumb. That's 50 million people.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/04/u...od-people.html

Yeah... IMHO... 15% is too low.

[Bogozags]

willandi - This is probably the best description of BLM and for those that don't understand that should re-watch this wonderful video you found...THANK YOU for dotting the "i's" and crossing the "t's"...

[Bogozags]

Gladly... The idea that Kaepernick was kneeling to protest the flag at the beginning and then shifted it... that is an outright falsehood. From day 1 of him kneeling it was about inequality at the hands of the police.

What saddens me is the whataboutisms used to attack BLM. An unarmed white woman is killed by a police officer in Minneapolis... and BLM didn't protest enough? Oh and the effort to point out the cop was black. What saddens me is the idea that gee Europe is racist... Africa is racist (again need to make sure we include POC) and acting like we are somehow better... we aren't. We have white people with their long guns lining the sides of a protest march trying to intimidate BLM and others out to protest. We aren't better... we are the same or worse than many countries. Heck, we still have Jim Crow on the books and when a state fixes them... governors refuse to enforce them (removing voting rights of felons who have served their time and have been released). If you don't think that is a Jim Crow law... look it up. The idea that the rioter are in the protests themselves... most of the rioting is happening AFTER the protests are over... in NYC more often than not it is not anywhere near where protests are taking place. But to tie the two together is a nice easy way to blame BLM. Speaking of BLM... I am actually shocked that to this point we haven't heard All lives matter... well of course they do... just the way our society functions right now... black peoples matter less and continue to matter less.

Take that for what it is. I am done with this thread on my side. But I will say that all this thread did was solidify my opinion that nothing will ever change and this is just another one that will go by the wayside... like they always do... It is what America does. We feign outrage and do nothing. THAT is what truly makes me sad. I am done with this thread. I disagree with the idea that it should be moved... because that is part and parcel of how we as a society deal with this type of thing. Make it go away. It has everything to do with basketball... it has to do with Zags basketball (Mr. Dower and Mr. Suggs are two very notable people from the area). I'd like to say I will read more of this thread, but not sure I will.

LIZT - Very succient and THANKS for taking the time to clarify...have a GREAT weekend!

[jazzdelmar]

Yeah... IMHO... 15% is too low.

Speak for yourself, Guyland

[JPtheBeasta]

Gladly... The idea that Kaepernick was kneeling to protest the flag at the beginning and then shifted it... that is an outright falsehood. From day 1 of him kneeling it was about inequality at the hands of the police.

From day 1 the persons who didn't like his protest felt that way because it disrespected the flag (and what it stood for).

[tinfoilzag]

White privilege is a thing.

Systematic racism is a thing.

Again, until the United States follows other countries leads in looking towards Truth and Reconciliation, and then actively works towards achieving the end goals of fixing the still lingering effects of a societal structure built on racism and white privilege. These protests will continue, as they should.

This is a reboot of the ol' doctrine of indulgences scheme where the priests decide who is a sinner and you have to pay for forgiveness and the sins of your father.

I share Martin Luther King's dream "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

This thread seemed too civil, I'd thought I'd bring the Protestant Reformation into it.