Race thread (will be moved on Monday night)

[Markburn1]

interstingly, the studies I posted earlier portray a different picture, where one study showed non-lethal use of force was more than 50% more likely to occur to blacks and hispanics; here is a summary of that report and analysis

https://www.chronicle.com/article/Police-Violence-Out-of/237236

and this one, especially the part about breaking down police shootings in Houston (check out the link for Officer Involved Shootings for the past few years)

https://scholar.harvard.edu/jfeldman/blog/roland-fryer-wrong-there-racial-bias-shootings-police

there are others that reveal similar findings

Would you acknowledge that Hoopaholics stats are flat out raw numbers that are not manipulated whereas the studies you listed have many other factors that allow for conclusions based on who is deciding what is relevant? Both of your stories indicated that was the case.

[LongIslandZagFan]

see my 2019 statistics for consideration as to who is really subjective to more force used on a per basis of violent crime arrests

Sure... Lets. I do stats all... day... long.

2019 we ha 485 white males killed by law enforcement and 298 African American males killed by law enforcement.

Whites make up 61% of the US population. Blacks 12.8%. Simple math there... There are roughly 5 times as many whites than blacks. Yet in terms of males blacks being killed at nearly 60% that of whites. Yes... more white males were killed by cops as opposed to blacks. But black men are killed at a much higher rate. Which is exactly the point.

Now lets see how many white males are killed by cops in non-violent arrests or non-arrests period. Remember... Eric Garner was killed by a cop for selling loose cigarettes. Cory Jones was killed by a cop that he called for help. George Floyd was killed for passing a bad check.

Police killed 1004 people in 2019 and black males made up 24% of those killed while making up 13% of the population.

[LongIslandZagFan]

Would you acknowledge that Hoopaholics stats are flat out raw numbers that are not manipulated whereas the studies you listed have many other factors that allow for conclusions based on who is deciding what is relevant? Both of your stories indicated that was the case.

Not manipulated... sure... raw... yeah very raw and lacking context.

[LongIslandZagFan]

Come on LIZF, you are better than this.



Tell that to Justine Damond.

There are no guarantees in life. Both sides can de-escalate most any given situation and yes, there are some situations where no matter what the victim (any race, creed, gender, etc.) does, the situation or participants simply cannot be de-escalated. By far and away, you minimize your chances of the use of force if you simply comply with the officer's commands.

From personal experience, I had 7 people (all of my immediate family) in my SUV coming home from a b-day party, and stopped at my mom's retirement community to drop her off at her condo. As soon as I pulled into the driveway, two patrol cars, one from each direction came screaming (sirens and lights) down both sides of the street and blocked the driveway. The officers jumped out of their patrol cars and came running to the driver's and passenger's window guns drawn, yelling at the top of their voice to keep my hands visible, do not move, stay in the car. By the way, the officers did not have any idea of my race until they got within a couple of feet from the side window (tinted windows at night).

Here you choose to make a decision on how to respond and the decision you make may lead to a very different endings and how the police handle the situation.

Keep in mind that Shaq served as a reserve police officer in Miami Beach, Golden Beach, and Doral, Florida, as well as Tempe, Arizona and Port of Los Angeles, California. He understands both the needs of the police officer and the issues concerning the black community. He wants his kids to do their best to de-escalate the situation and minimize any potential for misunderstanding.

Great job by Shaq.

ZagDad

If it happens so often... find another example... it really should be quite easy.

By no means am I saying it doesn't help... it does... but that doesn't change the implicit bias of the police officer. Philando Castile was killed because he did the right thing and a cop was scared of a man trying to do the right thing. He TRIED to comply and died. He tried to be open and upfront with the cop and died. Which again, goes back to my point... that blacks, and men especially, are at a much greater risk of dying at the hands of the police even when complying.

[LongIslandZagFan]

This particular murder doesn't seem to be overall race related. New evidence indicate the policemen and the victim worked together in a night club and didn't get along at all. Neither was a pillar of the community as it turns out. Doesn't change much in terms of who's alive or dead...….but it does shed some non racial light on this whole thing. Might be something to keep an eye on.

It is a bit of a mix from what I read. Yes, they didn't get along... but Chauvin also feared and didn't care particularly for black people too. Bit of a toss up. But going back to the key point here... he was killed at the hands of a LEO for a non-violent crime... and was basically choked for almost 9 minutes. I do agree that there is a possibility that there may be an element of personal vendetta on this as well.

[Markburn1]

Not manipulated... sure... raw... yeah very raw and lacking context.

He did provide context. Plenty of it. You just didn't like it.

His point was that death by police officer in this country is a rarity and the media has created a false representation of the issue. The number of deaths that occur with unarmed people is amazingly low no matter what color and the percentages by race don't match the narrative the media is flogging.

[MDABE80]

First, we don’t know that the initial dislike wasn’t race related. Maybe it wasn’t but you can’t make he assumption either way

Secondly, to repeat, the initial police and coroners report are a major part of 5is story and neither have anything to do with the relationship between cop and victim. The seeming indifference is as big of a concern to many.

1 . You don’t either so why make it your issue?
2 The coroner and police report don’t have anything to do with my observation. So why drop it in?

[MDABE80]

He did provide context. Plenty of it. You just didn't like it.

His point was that death by police officer in this country is a rarity and the media has created a false representation of the issue. The number of deaths that occur with unarmed people is amazingly low no matter what color and the percentages by race don't match the narrative the media is flogging.

Pretty much agree.

[Hoopaholic]

Sure... Lets. I do stats all... day... long.

2019 we ha 485 white males killed by law enforcement and 298 African American males killed by law enforcement.

Whites make up 61% of the US population. Blacks 12.8%. Simple math there... There are roughly 5 times as many whites than blacks. Yet in terms of males blacks being killed at nearly 60% that of whites. Yes... more white males were killed by cops as opposed to blacks. But black men are killed at a much higher rate. Which is exactly the point.

Now lets see how many white males are killed by cops in non-violent arrests or non-arrests period. Remember... Eric Garner was killed by a cop for selling loose cigarettes. Cory Jones was killed by a cop that he called for help. George Floyd was killed for passing a bad check.

Police killed 1004 people in 2019 and black males made up 24% of those killed while making up 13% of the population.

Why are you unable to name other races who dined in similar manner. Media drives the narrative maybe?

Tony timpa was killed at hands of police calling for help..knee in back for 30 minutes. Not a word by national media. Wrongful death bad tactics. Cold blooded jokes during the incident yet not a word amongst others

I could list 30 of these cases in all different races because I happen to engage in review of all deaths like this to find common causes and provide advanced training to prevent future incidents no matter who as I took oath to protect all in a fair, consistent manner

If we want a truly balanced justice for all we need to look at all these issues and make changes but cant have a civil, deep dialogue with media narrative driving public perception

Again one wrong death is one too many

Help me understand why the stats of deadly force per arrest is out of context.....violent arrests is the highest risk and by far the most use of force incidents for officers and the stats show that

[Hoopaholic]

It's difficult to parse the statistics when there's so many unique factors that can lead to an officer killing a citizen. Just eyeballing these I quoted from you makes me think black people obviously get killed more often per capita. But then you indicate in violent arrests, it's actually more likely for whites to get killed. So there's this underlying theory that blacks are more likely to commit a violent crime and that's why they get killed more per capita. I understand your argument.

But there was no violent crime commited that justified the deaths of Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, or George Floyd, as far as I'm aware. Tamir Rice, Philando Castile, Eric Garner too, I mean, the list goes on and on. I realize Arbery wasn't literally killed by police, but the failure to apprehend the killers until the video went public was still a huge fail for justice.

I already made this point before, but I believe the evidence of systemic injustice is more cut and dry when looking at marijuana possession statistics. You and I discussed this at great length on the OCC and you made some insightful points about why there's more than institutional racism to blame for that, but I still see it on a basic level as a black eye for racial justice in our country. It may not be simply about fixing the police, but at least some work needs to be done there.

ETA:
The anger among black Americans is going to lead to better overall policing. We can honestly acknowledge the anger and move forward toward a more just nation in a way that doesn't "leave white people out of the equation."

I have no issue with the decriminalized of marijuana simple possession...

I have no issue with the complete removal of all such arrest records for that particular crime

I would even go so far as washing away all non violent arrest records and give clean slate for everyone as it pertains to non violent crime to give everyone the opportunity to move forward, get employment etc

[LongIslandZagFan]

He did provide context. Plenty of it. You just didn't like it.

His point was that death by police officer in this country is a rarity and the media has created a false representation of the issue. The number of deaths that occur with unarmed people is amazingly low no matter what color and the percentages by race don't match the narrative the media is flogging.

I provided context in my response. Go back.. read what I said. It isn’t the number it is the rate. But it seems like that doesn’t matter to you on this. Black deaths at the hands of police is NOT proportionate to their percentage of society. Oh, and by the way. Just one unarmed person dying at the hands of an LEO is one too many regardless of color and regardless skin color.

[LongIslandZagFan]

Why are you unable to name other races who dined in similar manner. Media drives the narrative maybe?

Tony timpa was killed at hands of police calling for help..knee in back for 30 minutes. Not a word by national media. Wrongful death bad tactics. Cold blooded jokes during the incident yet not a word amongst others

I could list 30 of these cases in all different races because I happen to engage in review of all deaths like this to find common causes and provide advanced training to prevent future incidents no matter who as I took oath to protect all in a fair, consistent manner

If we want a truly balanced justice for all we need to look at all these issues and make changes but cant have a civil, deep dialogue with media narrative driving public perception

Again one wrong death is one too many

Help me understand why the stats of deadly force per arrest is out of context.....violent arrests is the highest risk and by far the most use of force incidents for officers and the stats show that

First off, arrest is not the same as conviction. Plus there is this... a black man is 7 times more likely to be wrongfully convicted of murder. 75% of those are due to police misconduct. Three and a half times more likely to be wrongfully convicted of sexual assault. Does that qualify as context?

As to adding other races in... I don’t think you would want me to. Blacks are already out of proportion and if I start adding in Latinos it will only hurt your position not help

[Hoopaholic]

First off, arrest is not the same as conviction. Plus there is this... a black man is 7 times more likely to be wrongfully convicted of murder. 75% of those are due to police misconduct. Three and a half times more likely to be wrongfully convicted of sexual assault. Does that qualify as context?

As to adding other races in... I don’t think you would want me to. Blacks are already out of proportion and if I start adding in Latinos it will only hurt your position not help

Sidestepped my question.......?

[JPtheBeasta]

There was 1.2 million violent crimes committed in 2019
with 521,000 arrests for these violent crimes: 212,000 white males 129,000 African American Males

Of these VIOLENT crime arrest only .00005% of all arrests required use of deadly force

Of these ViOLENT CRIME ARRESTS 1 white male was killed for every 1,075 arrested 1 african american male was killed for every 1,749 violent crime arrests

Of these VIOLENT CRIME arrests 1 unarmed white male was killed for every 20,840 arrests 1 unarmed african american male was killed for every 34,734 violent crime arrests

These particular stats tell more of the story than simply looking at the percentage of blacks and whites and comparing the number of incidents. In a 2018 report, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, blacks made up 12% of the population but were involved in 22% of the violent crimes. I think that the missing link is likely poverty. According to the BJS (again), poor whites were equally likely to participate in so-called "non-fatal violent victimization"

[Hoopaholic]

These particular stats tell more of the story than simply looking at the percentage of blacks and whites and comparing the number of incidents. In a 2018 report, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, blacks made up 12% of the population but were involved in 22% of the violent crimes. I think that the missing link is likely poverty. According to the BJS (again), poor whites were equally likely to participate in so-called "non-fatal violent victimization"

Poverty is absolutely a sociological factor, lack of hope,lack of. Role model or mentors, lack of structure, lack of discipline are others that seem to play into the poor choices made by those engaged in crime

But 70% recidivism rate is also an area that IMO needs to be addressed despite trillions of dollars in rehab programs, housing etc once released