Race thread (will be moved on Monday night)

[willandi]

I don't want to get snippy, but I have posted several of my own ideas, ones that I feel are pertinent and apropos, without many comments, some with none.
I also copy and paste things that I believe to be pertinent, to my way of thinking.

How about if you disagree with something I have copied and pasted, you voice your disagreements and if you don't have any, you limit your posts to your own original and appropriate ideas? Seems fair to me rather than wanting to censor what I post just because it is a copy and paste.

[Hoopaholic]

Agree that we do have to face these questions and it's not easy.

A couple of things I'm wondering that I don't know:
1. Do I, as a private citizen, have the right to shoot and kill a non-LEO person who points a taser at me?
2. What are the countries that have fewer law enforcement killings doing differently? Are their police officers victimized more often?

1. Yes if you fear for grievous injury or death you have a right to protect yourself and others under the constitution, laws and court cases.......police are held to an even higher level of review as the determination of validity of use of force is not at the level of a citizen but at the higher level of reasonable officer response based upon training, experience and human factors....for example I am 6 feet and 240 pounds with 31 years of law enforcement and thousands hours of trainingif a person 5”8 to and 155 pounds coming at me with fists reasonable officer use of force would dictate under those circumstances lower level of force.......switch it around and have a 6reasonable foot coming at a 5”8 rookie officer just out of academy and the use of a baton, mace or possibly taser would be considered justified

2. Honestly it comes down to violent crimes and engaged action of the subject not willing to come into arrest or compliance is the biggest difference, combined with firearm possession and finally training on perceived vs real threat

We have 5 -7 times the violent crime per year
We arrest 2-4 times violent offenders than other countries
We have 5 to 7 times the number of gun violence than other countries
We are 10.6 per 100,000. Canada. 2.1, Germany .9, UK .3 Japan .2
We make up 5% of the worlds population and have 45% of all firearms in the world

Perceived versus real comes down to changing the laws and court rulings.....reasonable standard allows the perception of potential threat of serious injury/death to react......I firmly believe that one must see a real threat before engaging in the use of deadly force (moral and ethical vs legal). And robust training with dedicated funding for specific training (we have 40 mandatory training topics each year to ensure occurs, so the practical scenario training events, the de-escalation hands on training all suffer unless there is specific and mandated training with funding for it

Now there is a long sociological discussion on why we lead the world in violent crime.....would probably take multiple beers

[ZagsObserver]

I don't want to get snippy, but I have posted several of my own ideas, ones that I feel are pertinent and apropos, without many comments, some with none.
I also copy and paste things that I believe to be pertinent, to my way of thinking.

How about if you disagree with something I have copied and pasted, you voice your disagreements and if you don't have any, you limit your posts to your own original and appropriate ideas? Seems fair to me rather than wanting to censor what I post just because it is a copy and paste.

Seems to me that you universalize the behavior of certain individuals (cops) to create a narrative when it suits your thinking, but ignore/rationalize the behavior of other individuals when it doesn’t fit the narrative.

I suppose that’s no different than what Fox New, CNN and MSNBC do.

It’s no less irritating.

[willandi]

Seems to me that you universalize the behavior of certain individuals (cops) to create a narrative when it suits your thinking, but ignore/rationalize the behavior of other individuals when it doesn’t fit the narrative.

I suppose that’s no different than what Fox New, CNN and MSNBC do.

It’s no less irritating.

Scroll past. It's not a big thing if you don't like what I say.

I support LEO completely, excepting those few that seem to show up now and then. I have always had good relations with cops (excepting when young and on the wrong side).
If we didn't make somewhat generalized statements, we would be having to discuss each and every, both good and bad.
Again. When I have made original thought postings, very few have elicited comments. When I copy and paste, people respond. Go figure.
Rather than deciding what I am doing and saying wrong, POST SOME OF YOUR OWN SOLUTIONS AND IDEAS!

[ZagsObserver]

Scroll past. It's not a big thing if you don't like what I say.

I support LEO completely, excepting those few that seem to show up now and then. I have always had good relations with cops (excepting when young and on the wrong side).
If we didn't make somewhat generalized statements, we would be having to discuss each and every, both good and bad.
Again. When I have made original thought postings, very few have elicited comments. When I copy and paste, people respond. Go figure.
Rather than deciding what I am doing and saying wrong, POST SOME OF YOUR OWN SOLUTIONS AND IDEAS!

It has little to do with your own material vs borrowed material. It has to do with truth and beauty. Like your Tanya post, which Was out of context and factually incorrect. Rather than apologize once you were aware of its disingenuity, you doubled down and made a snarky comment. Own it.

[willandi]

It has little to do with your own material vs borrowed material. It has to do with truth and beauty. Like your Tanya post, which Was out of context and factually incorrect. Rather than apologize once you were aware of its disingenuity, you doubled down and made a snarky comment. Own it.

Please block me. Then you won't have to see any of it.

[former1dog]

In my opinion, this thread has run its course and should be moved. Let's talk basketball.

[willandi]

It has little to do with your own material vs borrowed material. It has to do with truth and beauty. Like your Tanya post, which Was out of context and factually incorrect. Rather than apologize once you were aware of its disingenuity, you doubled down and made a snarky comment. Own it.

Please go back and read my responses. None were snarky. The closest was a different one where you didn't agree with what I said my cousin complained about.

Thank you.

[Markburn1]

Regarding the closing of this thread.

I agree it has run it’s course. I’m impressed it held up so long.

We, for the most part, had a conversation from multiple viewpoints. There were some that wanted to shut it down because they didn’t agree with some of the things posted. One even went so far as to say that if people didn’t agree with his point of view they should be booted from the forum. That type of thinking is dangerous. That isn’t seeking a conversation, it’s seeking to force agreement with dire consequences if you choose to deviate from that person’s point of view. Fortunately, most people got their points across and respected other’s right to do the same.

One thing brought us to this forum to begin with. Gonzaga basketball. I look forward to discussing it in the future with folks I obviously disagree with on subjects that don’t pertain to the magic of Zags basketball. I said in an earlier post that there is not one of you that I wouldn’t enjoy a meal with. I hope you all feel the same.

[ZagsObserver]

Please go back and read my responses. None were snarky. The closest was a different one where you didn't agree with what I said my cousin complained about.

Thank you.

I’ll pm you. Don’t think we need to lead everyone down this rabbit hole.

[CB4]

So Black Lives Matter just doesn't pertain to policing but also to educational opportunities. Some way, some how this merry-go-round needs to stop and to do so we (as a country) have to find a way to change and correct these daily problems that Balck Americans face in their everyday lives...

As we come to a close on this thread, I give particular thanks to Bogozags for his insightful post on Page 18, where Bogozags sums up what this is all about. Hopefully we can all take steps to end the merry-go-round and make the "Land of the Free" more free and more prosperous for everyone, regardless of color.

[sittingon50]

In my opinion, this thread has run its course and should be moved. Let's talk basketball.

Respectfully disagree former.

Mods, not sure who made the decision to close this thread, but I think it would be a big mistake. Yes, the Crosby Forum got out of hand & got nuked ( & I certainly am responsible for my part in that) but the title of this thread is quite clear to all that come across it & it is something that really needs to continued to be discussed. The needle has moved somewhat on the issue of race in the last 3 weeks but has a long way to go. So many incidents have quickly become yesterdays news; I would hate to see that happen now.

Though liberal, I am an old white guy who has spent his entire life in white culture. I need to continue to get educated & it is my opinion that though most of the contributors on this board are white guys, their life experiences (upbringing, military, travel, etc.) bring insight to this issue that would be helpful to folks like me.

I would ask for some sort of compromise other than locking this particular thread. Thank you.


Edit to add: rereading, former said "moved" but I didn't read it that way after seeing posts with "closed" or "locked". Sorry former. To me traffic dictates keeping it here.

[LongIslandZagFan]

I think we ran this thread out as much as possible... considering the times I think it was a good thing. We’ll always have people who we agree and disagree with. I want to thank all involved on the thread for being generally Non-snarky and at times willing to listen to other viewpoints.

i am ok with keeping it open elsewhere but we’ll monitor it to make sure the spirit of the thread does dissolve into snarkiness

[willandi]

June 15, 2020 11:27AM
The Supreme Court’s Dereliction of Duty on Qualified Immunity

https://www.cato.org/blog/supreme-co...fUVEJw5ZCVFyIc

[Bogozags]

June 15, 2020 11:27AM
The Supreme Court’s Dereliction of Duty on Qualified Immunity

https://www.cato.org/blog/supreme-co...fUVEJw5ZCVFyIc

Yes, I agree with you entirely! I think one of the arguments for it might well be if there were no such immunity, then we would have less "good" people performing in public service.

Question: Is there anyway to determine/find out how many African Americans were shot in NYC 50 years ago and how many of those were unarmed? My guess is there were fewer back then due to maybe immunity not being available?

[willandi]

Yes, I agree with you entirely! I think one of the arguments for it might well be if there were no such immunity, then we would have less "good" people performing in public service.

Question: Is there anyway to determine/find out how many African Americans were shot in NYC 50 years ago and how many of those were unarmed? My guess is there were fewer back then due to maybe immunity not being available?

I don't think there is any way to know, but this is an insidious perversion of the law, enacted by SCOTUS themselves.

It removes the accountability for many of the bad police officers. The good aren't affected excepting when they don't speak out.

[Bogozags]

I don't think there is any way to know, but this is an insidious perversion of the law, enacted by SCOTUS themselves.

It removes the accountability for many of the bad police officers. The good aren't affected excepting when they don't speak out.

There are two things IMO that should be accomplished by any "law" passed by Congress: (1) Do away with immunity and (2) Institute a National Register designed to name any and all LEO's that have been terminated due to inappropriate actions.

I know of one officer that was fired by the City of Beaufort, SC but hired by the Sheriff's Office. I found this to be "nuts" but those are the "good old boys!"

[willandi]

It seems that the Cop that shot the guy in Atlanta has been charged with murder. It seems that, even though provoked and threatened, you can't shoot someone in the back and call it self defense. Who knew?

Actually...I did. This is something that comes up frequently in one of the jewelry forums I am in on Facebook. Jewelers that have been robbed, at gunpoint, react when the thief is leaving, grab their own gun and shoot him in the back. Even in 'stand your ground' and 'castle' states, it has proven hard to show self defense when the perp is fleeing.

[bballbeachbum]

Have you heard this? Coach K unequivocal.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1276621259116171269

“We see that,” Krzyzewski said in the video. “And what do we do when we see it? We turn the other way. We don’t solve the problem. The problem will not be solved and no problem is solved unless you acknowledge the problem. Acknowledge it. If you acknowledge it, you have the duty to solve it. We as a country have the duty to solve this problem...Black Lives Matter."

[MDABE80]

Death by cops. Data taken from Statista.com ( cumulative data from a German statistics site on multiple topics throughout the world.. ) Just an FYI

2017 2018 2019 2020*
White 457 399 370 172
Black 223 209 235 88
Hispan 179 148 158 57
Other 44 36 39 14
Unkno 84 204 202 98

[bballbeachbum]

here's a better viewing version of Coach K, if you haven't heard it yet

[willandi]

[willandi]

[Zagceo]

Back on topic


https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2020/07...e-late-friday/

[bballbeachbum]

Back on topic


https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2020/07...e-late-friday/

thanks. just read through all of that, terrible. I missed the race part in it tho, murder and poverty and violence, yes. There was no racial data in the article, tho Zagceo