Race thread (will be moved on Monday night)

[Markburn1]

I coached a team that was interesting to say the least.

Point guard was a Hmong whose parents were some of the boat people that immigrated here to keep from getting killed.

Two power forwards. One was a bit overweight white kid from an affluent family. The other was a ripped black kid from a middle class family whose other child earned an Olympic Gold Medal as a wrestler.

Center was a 6’9” Indian named Ranbir that everyone called Root Beer.

Combo guards were a milquetoast white kid(mine) that earned the nickname “White Chocolate” and an incredibly athletic black kid that lived in a shack with his mom and six brothers and sisters. Literally a dirt floor.

Had a Serbian kid with no vowels in his last name that was an exchange student. He loved rap music and wore headphones on road trips spouting lyrics he didn’t get.

And one skinny tall white dude that could not play. But, he was funny as hell and the rest of the kids loved having him around.

We would enter a gym and would get the weirdest looks. You could hear murmuring in the crowd and some laughter...until the game started.

We would run a back door alley oop to the dirt poor black kid and try to follow that with a bomb from the 5’4” Hmong kid. Then we’d get serious.

Those kids were fun.

[sonuvazag]

Maybe it’s me. I have gone through life not much caring what people think of me. My wife of forty two years doesn’t understand how that works. Hahahaha

It may be different for different people. Usually, I don't think much about what others think of me either, but when black people in America speak of having a common ground in their experience of systemic racism, specifically having the talk with their children about how to behave around police, I'm more willing to listen to that reasoning now.

[sonuvazag]

I coached a team that was interesting to say the least.

Point guard was a Hmong whose parents were some of the boat people that immigrated here to keep from getting killed.

Two power forwards. One was a bit overweight white kid from an affluent family. The other was a ripped black kid from a middle class family whose other child earned an Olympic Gold Medal as a wrestler.

Center was a 6’9” Indian named Ranbir that everyone called Root Beer.

Combo guards were a milquetoast white kid(mine) that earned the nickname “White Chocolate” and an incredibly athletic black kid that lived in a shack with his mom and six brothers and sisters. Literally a dirt floor.

Had a Serbian kid with no vowels in his last name that was an exchange student. He loved rap music and wore headphones on road trips spouting lyrics he didn’t get.

And one skinny tall white dude that could not play. But, he was funny as hell and the rest of the kids loved having him around.

We would enter a gym and would get the weirdest looks. You could hear murmuring in the crowd and some laughter...until the game started.

We would run a back door alley oop to the dirt poor black kid and try to follow that with a bomb from the 5’4” Hmong kid. Then we’d get serious.

Those kids were fun.

More of a mixed salad than a melting pot, it sounds like.

[Hoopaholic]

It may be different for different people. Usually, I don't think much about what others think of me either, but when black people in America speak of having a common ground in their experience of systemic racism, specifically having the talk with their children about how to behave around police, I'm more willing to listen to that reasoning now.

others that may not be african american also have this "talk" so not exclusively limited to a single race

[sonuvazag]

others that may not be african american also have this "talk" so not exclusively limited to a single race

True. But I don't think I'm wrong to say that black Americans feel this is, in a general sense, a common ground for them and something, on average, they take more seriously than white families. Not necessarily exclusively. Happy to be corrected if I'm off base, though.

[ZagDad84]

Shaq talking to his kids about how to interact with the police:

During his virtual visit to Jimmy Kimmel Live, the NBA legend opened up about the candid conversations he has with his children Taahriah, 23, Myles, 23, Shareef, 20, Amirah, 18, Shaqir, 17, and Me'arah, 14 about police brutality and how to interact with police officers.

"I have that talk with them all the time," he said told host Jimmy Kimmel. "I tell them, first of all, you have to try to diffuse the situation by showing respect because you have to understand that these people are also out here doing their job. So, you gotta diffuse the situation. And if it happens to get rough, don't do anything. Don't say anything. Just comply."

"And then, when it's all said and done, you call me. And if stuff gets out of hand, then I will handle it," O'Neal continued. "I will be the one to come out there and act crazy. I don't want you to act crazy while you're out there by yourself. So, I just try to tell them to just comply, to just listen."

Article Link: https://www.eonline.com/news/1158235...ct-with-police

ZagDad

[Hoopaholic]

True. But I don't think I'm wrong to say that black Americans feel this is, in a general sense, a common ground for them and something, on average, they take more seriously than white families. Not necessarily exclusively. Happy to be corrected if I'm off base, though.

i know the vast majority of police families have this discussion

[LongIslandZagFan]

Shaq talking to his kids about how to interact with the police:



Article Link: https://www.eonline.com/news/1158235...ct-with-police

ZagDad

The main problem with that is complying is subjective to the cop. For at least 8 minutes we know George Floyd was complying. Cory Jones was complying before he was shot on the side of the road... heck he was actually waiting for a tow truck and had called the police himself to report that he was having problems on the side of the road. My point is, even with that talk, there is still a huge risk for a black man that doesn't exist for someone that is white.

[Hoopaholic]

True. But I don't think I'm wrong to say that black Americans feel this is, in a general sense, a common ground for them and something, on average, they take more seriously than white families. Not necessarily exclusively. Happy to be corrected if I'm off base, though.

herein is where I have the issue.....for me the facts just dont support the perception and the media continues to provide fodder that is of a false narrative......whens the last time you saw media running constant discussion about a unarmed white male killed by police with knee on neck for 30 minutes........bet you havent heard of that one ...excessive force and just as bad as Mr Floyd......

2019 we ha 485 white males killed by law enforcement and 298 African American males killed by law enforcement

Of those 25 white males were considered unarmed and 15 unarmed african american males were killed by law enforcement

There was 1.2 million violent crimes committed in 2019
with 521,000 arrests for these violent crimes: 212,000 white males 129,000 African American Males

Of these VIOLENT crime arrest only .00005% of all arrests required use of deadly force

Of these ViOLENT CRIME ARRESTS 1 white male was killed for every 1,075 arrested 1 african american male was killed for every 1,749 violent crime arrests

Of these VIOLENT CRIME arrests 1 unarmed white male was killed for every 20,840 arrests 1 unarmed african american male was killed for every 34,734 violent crime arrests

Doesnt seem to me that there is a systematic, consistent targeting or over reaction of excessive force as being portrayed.......but I also know I have a different set of lenses I look through....

Oh by way 60% decline in police shootings across the board since 2015 but you would not know that from media portrayal.




food for thought and discussion

[Hoopaholic]

The main problem with that is complying is subjective to the cop. For at least 8 minutes we know George Floyd was complying. Cory Jones was complying before he was shot on the side of the road... heck he was actually waiting for a tow truck and had called the police himself to report that he was having problems on the side of the road. My point is, even with that talk, there is still a huge risk for a black man that doesn't exist for someone that is white.

see my 2019 statistics for consideration as to who is really subjective to more force used on a per basis of violent crime arrests

[MDABE80]

This particular murder doesn't seem to be overall race related. New evidence indicate the policemen and the victim worked together in a night club and didn't get along at all. Neither was a pillar of the community as it turns out. Doesn't change much in terms of who's alive or dead...….but it does shed some non racial light on this whole thing. Might be something to keep an eye on.

[bballbeachbum]

see my 2019 statistics for consideration as to who is really subjective to more force used on a per basis of violent crime arrests

interstingly, the studies I posted earlier portray a different picture, where one study showed non-lethal use of force was more than 50% more likely to occur to blacks and hispanics; here is a summary of that report and analysis
https://www.chronicle.com/article/Po...-Out-of/237236

and this one, especially the part about breaking down police shootings in Houston (check out the link for Officer Involved Shootings for the past few years)
https://scholar.harvard.edu/jfeldman...ootings-police

there are others that reveal similar findings

[ZagDad84]

The main problem with that is complying is subjective to the cop. For at least 8 minutes we know George Floyd was complying. Cory Jones was complying before he was shot on the side of the road... heck he was actually waiting for a tow truck and had called the police himself to report that he was having problems on the side of the road. My point is, even with that talk, there is still a huge risk for a black man that doesn't exist for someone that is white.

Come on LIZF, you are better than this.

My point is, even with that talk, there is still a huge risk for a black man that doesn't exist for someone that is white.

Tell that to Justine Damond.

There are no guarantees in life. Both sides can de-escalate most any given situation and yes, there are some situations where no matter what the victim (any race, creed, gender, etc.) does, the situation or participants simply cannot be de-escalated. By far and away, you minimize your chances of the use of force if you simply comply with the officer's commands.

From personal experience, I had 7 people (all of my immediate family) in my SUV coming home from a b-day party, and stopped at my mom's retirement community to drop her off at her condo. As soon as I pulled into the driveway, two patrol cars, one from each direction came screaming (sirens and lights) down both sides of the street and blocked the driveway. The officers jumped out of their patrol cars and came running to the driver's and passenger's window guns drawn, yelling at the top of their voice to keep my hands visible, do not move, stay in the car. By the way, the officers did not have any idea of my race until they got within a couple of feet from the side window (tinted windows at night).

Here you choose to make a decision on how to respond and the decision you make may lead to a very different endings and how the police handle the situation.

Keep in mind that Shaq served as a reserve police officer in Miami Beach, Golden Beach, and Doral, Florida, as well as Tempe, Arizona and Port of Los Angeles, California. He understands both the needs of the police officer and the issues concerning the black community. He wants his kids to do their best to de-escalate the situation and minimize any potential for misunderstanding.

Great job by Shaq.

ZagDad

[sonuvazag]

2019 we ha 485 white males killed by law enforcement and 298 African American males killed by law enforcement

Of those 25 white males were considered unarmed and 15 unarmed african american males were killed by law enforcement

It's difficult to parse the statistics when there's so many unique factors that can lead to an officer killing a citizen. Just eyeballing these I quoted from you makes me think black people obviously get killed more often per capita. But then you indicate in violent arrests, it's actually more likely for whites to get killed. So there's this underlying theory that blacks are more likely to commit a violent crime and that's why they get killed more per capita. I understand your argument.

But there was no violent crime commited that justified the deaths of Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, or George Floyd, as far as I'm aware. Tamir Rice, Philando Castile, Eric Garner too, I mean, the list goes on and on. I realize Arbery wasn't literally killed by police, but the failure to apprehend the killers until the video went public was still a huge fail for justice.

I already made this point before, but I believe the evidence of systemic injustice is more cut and dry when looking at marijuana possession statistics. You and I discussed this at great length on the OCC and you made some insightful points about why there's more than institutional racism to blame for that, but I still see it on a basic level as a black eye for racial justice in our country. It may not be simply about fixing the police, but at least some work needs to be done there.

ETA:
The anger among black Americans is going to lead to better overall policing. We can honestly acknowledge the anger and move forward toward a more just nation in a way that doesn't "leave white people out of the equation."

[zagfan24]

This particular murder doesn't seem to be overall race related. New evidence indicate the policemen and the victim worked together in a night club and didn't get along at all. Neither was a pillar of the community as it turns out. Doesn't change much in terms of who's alive or dead...….but it does shed some non racial light on this whole thing. Might be something to keep an eye on.

First, we don’t know that the initial dislike wasn’t race related. Maybe it wasn’t but you can’t make he assumption either way

Secondly, to repeat, the initial police and coroners report are a major part of 5is story and neither have anything to do with the relationship between cop and victim. The seeming indifference is as big of a concern to many.

[Markburn1]

interstingly, the studies I posted earlier portray a different picture, where one study showed non-lethal use of force was more than 50% more likely to occur to blacks and hispanics; here is a summary of that report and analysis
https://www.chronicle.com/article/Po...-Out-of/237236

and this one, especially the part about breaking down police shootings in Houston (check out the link for Officer Involved Shootings for the past few years)
https://scholar.harvard.edu/jfeldman...ootings-police

there are others that reveal similar findings

Would you acknowledge that Hoopaholics stats are flat out raw numbers that are not manipulated whereas the studies you listed have many other factors that allow for conclusions based on who is deciding what is relevant? Both of your stories indicated that was the case.

[LongIslandZagFan]

see my 2019 statistics for consideration as to who is really subjective to more force used on a per basis of violent crime arrests

Sure... Lets. I do stats all... day... long.

2019 we ha 485 white males killed by law enforcement and 298 African American males killed by law enforcement.

Whites make up 61% of the US population. Blacks 12.8%. Simple math there... There are roughly 5 times as many whites than blacks. Yet in terms of males blacks being killed at nearly 60% that of whites. Yes... more white males were killed by cops as opposed to blacks. But black men are killed at a much higher rate. Which is exactly the point.

Now lets see how many white males are killed by cops in non-violent arrests or non-arrests period. Remember... Eric Garner was killed by a cop for selling loose cigarettes. Cory Jones was killed by a cop that he called for help. George Floyd was killed for passing a bad check.

Police killed 1004 people in 2019 and black males made up 24% of those killed while making up 13% of the population.

[LongIslandZagFan]

Would you acknowledge that Hoopaholics stats are flat out raw numbers that are not manipulated whereas the studies you listed have many other factors that allow for conclusions based on who is deciding what is relevant? Both of your stories indicated that was the case.

Not manipulated... sure... raw... yeah very raw and lacking context.

[LongIslandZagFan]

Come on LIZF, you are better than this.



Tell that to Justine Damond.

There are no guarantees in life. Both sides can de-escalate most any given situation and yes, there are some situations where no matter what the victim (any race, creed, gender, etc.) does, the situation or participants simply cannot be de-escalated. By far and away, you minimize your chances of the use of force if you simply comply with the officer's commands.

From personal experience, I had 7 people (all of my immediate family) in my SUV coming home from a b-day party, and stopped at my mom's retirement community to drop her off at her condo. As soon as I pulled into the driveway, two patrol cars, one from each direction came screaming (sirens and lights) down both sides of the street and blocked the driveway. The officers jumped out of their patrol cars and came running to the driver's and passenger's window guns drawn, yelling at the top of their voice to keep my hands visible, do not move, stay in the car. By the way, the officers did not have any idea of my race until they got within a couple of feet from the side window (tinted windows at night).

Here you choose to make a decision on how to respond and the decision you make may lead to a very different endings and how the police handle the situation.

Keep in mind that Shaq served as a reserve police officer in Miami Beach, Golden Beach, and Doral, Florida, as well as Tempe, Arizona and Port of Los Angeles, California. He understands both the needs of the police officer and the issues concerning the black community. He wants his kids to do their best to de-escalate the situation and minimize any potential for misunderstanding.

Great job by Shaq.

ZagDad

If it happens so often... find another example... it really should be quite easy.

By no means am I saying it doesn't help... it does... but that doesn't change the implicit bias of the police officer. Philando Castile was killed because he did the right thing and a cop was scared of a man trying to do the right thing. He TRIED to comply and died. He tried to be open and upfront with the cop and died. Which again, goes back to my point... that blacks, and men especially, are at a much greater risk of dying at the hands of the police even when complying.

[LongIslandZagFan]

This particular murder doesn't seem to be overall race related. New evidence indicate the policemen and the victim worked together in a night club and didn't get along at all. Neither was a pillar of the community as it turns out. Doesn't change much in terms of who's alive or dead...….but it does shed some non racial light on this whole thing. Might be something to keep an eye on.

It is a bit of a mix from what I read. Yes, they didn't get along... but Chauvin also feared and didn't care particularly for black people too. Bit of a toss up. But going back to the key point here... he was killed at the hands of a LEO for a non-violent crime... and was basically choked for almost 9 minutes. I do agree that there is a possibility that there may be an element of personal vendetta on this as well.

[Markburn1]

Not manipulated... sure... raw... yeah very raw and lacking context.

He did provide context. Plenty of it. You just didn't like it.

His point was that death by police officer in this country is a rarity and the media has created a false representation of the issue. The number of deaths that occur with unarmed people is amazingly low no matter what color and the percentages by race don't match the narrative the media is flogging.

[MDABE80]

First, we don’t know that the initial dislike wasn’t race related. Maybe it wasn’t but you can’t make he assumption either way

Secondly, to repeat, the initial police and coroners report are a major part of 5is story and neither have anything to do with the relationship between cop and victim. The seeming indifference is as big of a concern to many.

1 . You don’t either so why make it your issue?
2 The coroner and police report don’t have anything to do with my observation. So why drop it in?

[MDABE80]

He did provide context. Plenty of it. You just didn't like it.

His point was that death by police officer in this country is a rarity and the media has created a false representation of the issue. The number of deaths that occur with unarmed people is amazingly low no matter what color and the percentages by race don't match the narrative the media is flogging.

Pretty much agree.

[Hoopaholic]

Sure... Lets. I do stats all... day... long.

2019 we ha 485 white males killed by law enforcement and 298 African American males killed by law enforcement.

Whites make up 61% of the US population. Blacks 12.8%. Simple math there... There are roughly 5 times as many whites than blacks. Yet in terms of males blacks being killed at nearly 60% that of whites. Yes... more white males were killed by cops as opposed to blacks. But black men are killed at a much higher rate. Which is exactly the point.

Now lets see how many white males are killed by cops in non-violent arrests or non-arrests period. Remember... Eric Garner was killed by a cop for selling loose cigarettes. Cory Jones was killed by a cop that he called for help. George Floyd was killed for passing a bad check.

Police killed 1004 people in 2019 and black males made up 24% of those killed while making up 13% of the population.

Why are you unable to name other races who dined in similar manner. Media drives the narrative maybe?

Tony timpa was killed at hands of police calling for help..knee in back for 30 minutes. Not a word by national media. Wrongful death bad tactics. Cold blooded jokes during the incident yet not a word amongst others

I could list 30 of these cases in all different races because I happen to engage in review of all deaths like this to find common causes and provide advanced training to prevent future incidents no matter who as I took oath to protect all in a fair, consistent manner

If we want a truly balanced justice for all we need to look at all these issues and make changes but cant have a civil, deep dialogue with media narrative driving public perception

Again one wrong death is one too many

Help me understand why the stats of deadly force per arrest is out of context.....violent arrests is the highest risk and by far the most use of force incidents for officers and the stats show that

[Hoopaholic]

It's difficult to parse the statistics when there's so many unique factors that can lead to an officer killing a citizen. Just eyeballing these I quoted from you makes me think black people obviously get killed more often per capita. But then you indicate in violent arrests, it's actually more likely for whites to get killed. So there's this underlying theory that blacks are more likely to commit a violent crime and that's why they get killed more per capita. I understand your argument.

But there was no violent crime commited that justified the deaths of Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, or George Floyd, as far as I'm aware. Tamir Rice, Philando Castile, Eric Garner too, I mean, the list goes on and on. I realize Arbery wasn't literally killed by police, but the failure to apprehend the killers until the video went public was still a huge fail for justice.

I already made this point before, but I believe the evidence of systemic injustice is more cut and dry when looking at marijuana possession statistics. You and I discussed this at great length on the OCC and you made some insightful points about why there's more than institutional racism to blame for that, but I still see it on a basic level as a black eye for racial justice in our country. It may not be simply about fixing the police, but at least some work needs to be done there.

ETA:
The anger among black Americans is going to lead to better overall policing. We can honestly acknowledge the anger and move forward toward a more just nation in a way that doesn't "leave white people out of the equation."

I have no issue with the decriminalized of marijuana simple possession...

I have no issue with the complete removal of all such arrest records for that particular crime

I would even go so far as washing away all non violent arrest records and give clean slate for everyone as it pertains to non violent crime to give everyone the opportunity to move forward, get employment etc