Race thread (will be moved on Monday night)

[scrooner]

It's interesting that we hear that the vast majority of cops are good, and yet the unions that represent them allow bad cops to remain employed and have their records purged. Do these good cops not have a say in union behavior? Or are they okay with the "bad apples" serving beside them? I know in my job we speak up when someone is doing a bad job, or is making our department look bad, and we are relieved when they are let go. Bad coworkers in my department only end up making a lot more work for everyone else.

[willandi]

Definitely are some that are like that. I've been pulled over by one of those aholes myself.

Considering the power they have to destroy someone's life, or in your case your car, perhaps the qualifications to be a cop need to be a bit higher than they are now. I know plenty of cops who are great people... some a very good friends of mine. I have also met, at a party about 10 years ago, a NYC highway patrol guy who bragged to me about wearing an SS pin on his uniform... he thought it was funny... I was horrified.

Not sure I am pro-defunding or abolishing... but I do think perhaps restructuring and more civilian oversight is needed.

I don't know about defunding either. Some de-militarizing maybe, but when you have 100 cops and 10,000 angry protesters...the added gear helps.
Accountability. When cops shoot, or someone dies, they get suspended, without pay, while the incident is reviewed. The review board should consist of more unaffiliated civilians than cops. If the cops get sued, and lose, the payment comes out of the pension fund.

All brutality claims get investigated within 2-3 days, without exception. If justified, back pay is paid. Reduce the ability of the union to control the investigation.

Get rid of qualified immunity.

[Hoopaholic]

It's interesting that we hear that the vast majority of cops are good, and yet the unions that represent them allow bad cops to remain employed and have their records purged. Do these good cops not have a say in union behavior? Or are they okay with the "bad apples" serving beside them? I know in my job we speak up when someone is doing a bad job, or is making our department look bad, and we are relieved when they are let go. Bad coworkers in my department only end up making a lot more work for everyone else.

Absolutely false

Unions do not allow bad cops to remain employed-poor management who cant engage in proper investigations in compliance with contractual and state bill of rights and thus arbitrators who find departments failed to provide due process are responsible for bad cops being reinstated

When I was UNION PRESIDENT there was nothing more satisfying than to throw your hands up at a dirty cop and tell them they are screwed because the investigation was done by the books

Unions ensure compliance with a contract nothing more nothing else

[scrooner]

The argument I've heard for 'defunding the police' is this (and please forgive the rough summary....I'm still trying to understand it myself):

1) There is only a certain amount of money to disperse in a community for all services.
2) You can invest more in social services like schools, mental health services, working conditions, etc., or you can invest more in policing to round up the people who commit crimes due to poor education, lack of mental health services, poverty-level wages, etc.
3) Investing this money in policing has been great for the prison business. The US leads the world in incarceration rate, which should make you really happy if you're a prison corporation. But it hasn't made people in many communities feel any safer. People that live in 'safe communities' are safer because they have better access to good schools, jobs, housing, grocery stores, etc., not because there are lots of police in armor patrolling the area. And people in 'unsafe communities', in addition to other social problems, also have to deal with the threat that additional policing creates in their neighborhood. We've seen how poorly that works.
4) The basic idea is that if you do a better job in helping people out in the first place, you won't need to spend as money on the back end rounding them up and putting them in cages.

Something to consider, for those of you open-minded enough to have read this far:

Incarceration rates show that blacks are locked up at a rate of 5 times that of white people. Do any of you believe that black people, as a race, are 5 times as likely to be born with a criminal mindset?

If not, then WHY do we have this incarceration rate? Is it a) police prejudice, or b) they are born into a situation that more often leads to criminal behavior? Either way, 'defunding the police' (and putting that money to better use, sounds to me like an idea worth exploring.

[scrooner]

When I was UNION PRESIDENT there was nothing more satisfying than to throw your hands up at a dirty cop and tell them they are screwed because the investigation was done by the books

That anecdote doesn't change what happens in other unions.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...street/383258/

[Hoopaholic]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

This will be interesting to follow. He is currently prosecuting 6 other law enforcement officials before this happened he said, so if it's political for optics, he's already made this optic apparent. He's also prosecuting 39 rioters currently I believe he said. I don't know if that is optics too, but he's busy...in the middle of all of this I believe he said.

Re. intent, to many observers it looks like Gugino is returning the helmet so we'll see what is believed as a threat from q man approaching a mass of officers. The DA said they should have cuffed him, not shove him with the baton, so we'll see.

Re. tactics, I have a question on that too; were the officers following orders, and if so, are others to be charged too? If not following orders, then only they are charged? From your writing I perceive you are saying they are following normal tactics and orders. That is some food for thought for me.

Also, as a former Chief of Police, you understand that the DA's office is not the only political player in this equation.

I appreciate our civil tone with each other.

Interesting part on tactics that as the Chief law enforcement officer for the county he or his department approves all use of force tactics for civil unrest and states of emergency situations and I ALWAYS had the DA or his appointee present during our protest/civil unrest engagements so be interesting if Niagara PD did same

As to responsibility: I concur if this was not an approved tactic then the individual officer is subject to the review and determination of intent to harm....however, if the State AG reviewed, State criminal justice agency, Mayor, Pollice Chief all reviewed, all had hand in dressing and approval of tactic then who truly should be held accountable le?

[Hoopaholic]

That anecdote doesn't change what happens in other unions.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...street/383258/

Huh. “all over the U.S., police unions help many of those cops to get their jobs back, often via secretive appeals geared to protect labor rights rather than public safety.”

The first paragraph quote is exactly my point....IF MANAGEMENT had not violated due process and the contract then there would be no appeal to an arbiter


And further as a Chief of Police for 12 years I terminated 19 officers, every single one was upheld...just got the last appeal completed 5 months ago after 6 years of appeals by the officer (not the union)......do the investigation right, provide due process, comply with the technical aspects of a legally binding contract and appeals fail

[Hoopaholic]

The argument I've heard for 'defunding the police' is this (and please forgive the rough summary....I'm still trying to understand it myself):

1) There is only a certain amount of money to disperse in a community for all services.
2) You can invest more in social services like schools, mental health services, working conditions, etc., or you can invest more in policing to round up the people who commit crimes due to poor education, lack of mental health services, poverty-level wages, etc.
3) Investing this money in policing has been great for the prison business. The US leads the world in incarceration rate, which should make you really happy if you're a prison corporation. But it hasn't made people in many communities feel any safer. People that live in 'safe communities' are safer because they have better access to good schools, jobs, housing, grocery stores, etc., not because there are lots of police in armor patrolling the area. And people in 'unsafe communities', in addition to other social problems, also have to deal with the threat that additional policing creates in their neighborhood. We've seen how poorly that works.
4) The basic idea is that if you do a better job in helping people out in the first place, you won't need to spend as money on the back end rounding them up and putting them in cages.

Something to consider, for those of you open-minded enough to have read this far:

Incarceration rates show that blacks are locked up at a rate of 5 times that of white people. Do any of you believe that black people, as a race, are 5 times as likely to be born with a criminal mindset?

If not, then WHY do we have this incarceration rate? Is it a) police prejudice, or b) they are born into a situation that more often leads to criminal behavior? Either way, 'defunding the police' (and putting that money to better use, sounds to me like an idea worth exploring.

Defunding or reducing a budget is fine

Removal of social issues for law enforcement to deal with would be great

Public that decides in this direction must be ready for
Reduction in manpower available to respond
Increased in response time
Lack of availability to investigate criminal action
Potential for increase in crime

I am also ok with reduction in sentencing for non violent crimes with first offenses being mandated service of some type of work back to community, victim or non profit

I am a big believer in set standard sentencing, no wavering, no up or down by a judge...first offense for this type of crime here is your sentence...second offense. Xxxx. Don’t care if you are rich or poor, white or black you get exact same sentence

I am also a big fan of dedicated funding that must be utilized for training. My last training budget was 575,000 dollars and we could barely cover the 30 different MANDATORY training of one type of another and had to be creative to provide practical scenario training for de-escalation, adrenaline control and other critical aspects of training IMO


Incarceration rate is aligned with criminal activity...we lead the world in violent crime as a whole and property crime numbers is out of this world........less crime less incarceration. Now how to fix the issue of Americans propensity to engage in crime

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/icr.pdf

[JokerZag]

I eat dinner at my parents house every Wednesday night. Last week we had seafood stir-fry, was fantastic. My mother asked me what institutional and systemic mean, for the life of my $100K education, I could not answer. Bravo for keeping this open.

[Zag1203]

Hoopaholic,

I am interested in some of your thoughts since you have expertise in this field. As a chief of police, do you feel that the responsibility of officers is too broad? For example, many people request police to solve non-emergency disputes that really just require some authority/arbitrator and not an armed officer (neighbor disputes, noise disturbances, animals on the loose, illegal parking, welfare checks, mental health episodes, etc). I question if armed police officers are the best people for these kinds of issues since we have sometimes seen non-dangerous situations escalate into arrest or sometimes shootings. If these specific duties were delegated to other social groups or services that could theoretically provide a reasonable response time, would it help relieve department costs and officer duties/stress? Ultimately, I don't know if many police officers are trained in social work, but I feel like sometimes the correct response to an unruly minor or a mental health crisis is a social worker and not an armed officer. I appreciate your input as I am trying to learn from the department's perspective.

[CB4]

Dower sees the pain, frustration and outrage in his hometown.

He feels it.

He’s experienced it firsthand.

What Dower hasn’t seen is what he wants the most: substantive change.

“It never stops happening,” he said. “It happened before my parents were born, my grandparents. Hundreds of years and we’re still here, nothing has really changed. Why?”

Dower twice has been placed in handcuffs, once as a youth playing outside with friends in his neighborhood. He’s been pulled over numerous times, once when officers questioned if he really owned the car he was driving.

On a walk home from Walmart, Dower was surrounded and tossed to the ground by officers claiming he fit the profile of a suspect in an area stabbing.

“I said, ‘What was the profile?’ They said, ‘He was black,’ ” Dower recalled. “My personal experiences, I keep to myself unless somebody asks, but now people do need to hear it and whoever reaches out, I have no problem telling what I’ve been through and let them walk in my shoes.”

Dower, who played at Gonzaga from 2011-14 and professionally overseas before three knee operations in a 2 1/2-year span, said there was one incident during his time in Spokane.

“I was racially profiled in front of other white people,” he said. “I was the only one mistreated in a car full of people. That was the only time. That was handled. I know if it’s happening to me, it’s happening to millions of others, too, and their stories aren’t being heard.”

This was previously posted on here. Spokesman article with Sam Dower.

https://www.spokesman.com/stories/20...oins-hometown/

[willandi]

Defunding or reducing a budget is fine

Removal of social issues for law enforcement to deal with would be great

Public that decides in this direction must be ready for
Reduction in manpower available to respond
Increased in response time
Lack of availability to investigate criminal action
Potential for increase in crime

I am also ok with reduction in sentencing for non violent crimes with first offenses being mandated service of some type of work back to community, victim or non profit

I am a big believer in set standard sentencing, no wavering, no up or down by a judge...first offense for this type of crime here is your sentence...second offense. Xxxx. Don’t care if you are rich or poor, white or black you get exact same sentence

I am also a big fan of dedicated funding that must be utilized for training. My last training budget was 575,000 dollars and we could barely cover the 30 different MANDATORY training of one type of another and had to be creative to provide practical scenario training for de-escalation, adrenaline control and other critical aspects of training IMO


Incarceration rate is aligned with criminal activity...we lead the world in violent crime as a whole and property crime numbers is out of this world........less crime less incarceration. Now how to fix the issue of Americans propensity to engage in crime

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/icr.pdf

How would you feel about legalizing almost all drugs, the hard ones available by prescription , through a pharmacy and quality controlled.

To me, it would mean fewer opioid deaths (although there might be a short term upsurge, but those would quickly die out [pun intended]). Street selling of any amount would be a crime, but as selling of pot here in WA has made street sales almost disappear, it seems that it would do the same with others. It would put the drug trade out of business.
I could see it working for almost all drugs...I'm undecided about Meth, but if people killed themselves, at least they would not bankrupt the family and commit crime to do so. The prescriptions could be tied to a mandatory counseling.
I agree with mandatory sentencing. Of course, the ability to afford a better lawyer would have the result of the charge being lowered.

[JokerZag]

I'd be interested in Pargo's perspective of the current situation. I believe Few has said he was one of the recruits he was most proud of. South side of Chicago to Spokane.

[Hoopaholic]

How would you feel about legalizing almost all drugs, the hard ones available by prescription , through a pharmacy and quality controlled.

To me, it would mean fewer opioid deaths (although there might be a short term upsurge, but those would quickly die out [pun intended]). Street selling of any amount would be a crime, but as selling of pot here in WA has made street sales almost disappear, it seems that it would do the same with others. It would put the drug trade out of business.
I could see it working for almost all drugs...I'm undecided about Meth, but if people killed themselves, at least they would not bankrupt the family and commit crime to do so. The prescriptions could be tied to a mandatory counseling.
I agree with mandatory sentencing. Of course, the ability to afford a better lawyer would have the result of the charge being lowered.

First and foremost it is a media driven myth that the black market for marijuana has dried up..... in pierce county alone the sheriff dept has doubled the amount of large scale marijuana seizures and has had to find new storage space for the evidence and other agencies have found this as well

If we make it legal than those who engage should get no public support for their medical issues that they self inflicted by this choice

There is still the undecided gateway argument especially on the harder stuff

As to the theory of less crime I don’t buy that. If they are addicted they are addicted and will do anything to get the money to buy it. Legally it black market so I don’t buy that theory

I fear escalated violence as the removal of a social stigma will cause some to try and some of these drugs are nasty addicting. Once had a man on pcp who literally pulled out of the ground a 8 inch tree swinging it around like it was a baseball bat

[Hoopaholic]

Hoopaholic,

I am interested in some of your thoughts since you have expertise in this field. As a chief of police, do you feel that the responsibility of officers is too broad? For example, many people request police to solve non-emergency disputes that really just require some authority/arbitrator and not an armed officer (neighbor disputes, noise disturbances, animals on the loose, illegal parking, welfare checks, mental health episodes, etc). I question if armed police officers are the best people for these kinds of issues since we have sometimes seen non-dangerous situations escalate into arrest or sometimes shootings. If these specific duties were delegated to other social groups or services that could theoretically provide a reasonable response time, would it help relieve department costs and officer duties/stress? Ultimately, I don't know if many police officers are trained in social work, but I feel like sometimes the correct response to an unruly minor or a mental health crisis is a social worker and not an armed officer. I appreciate your input as I am trying to learn from the department's perspective.

Quality of life responses have been debated since sir Robert peele

I think there are some that should be pushed aside from sworn to non sworn such as parking animal issues. Code enforcement issues noise etc. even mental health crisis should be responsible to those with special unique skill sets

However society will need to draw clear response expectation as many of these issues go sideways very quickly

Take mental health issues. Is it mental health or psychotropic drugs or a combination of both? One does not know until you arrive and assess the. It might be too late

Take the loud noise. Send non sworn there knock on door and get greeted by an angry husband who was beating his wife

I am a supporter of quick response to graffiti broken or damaged property by non law enforcement as blight begets blight which sends a signal of non caring

[vandalzag]

Happened to me too. No reason to stop me. Gave me a ticket for 65 in a 60. But they tore my car APART AND WEREN'T NICE ABOUT IT. gave me a ticket and drove off. some cops are simpleton aholes .

The difference between the 2 is you were stopped for speeding. He was pulled over for no reason and told they wanted to let him know his tabs were expiring in 3 months. Big diffeerence. Been driving for 35 years never been pulled over to let me know my tabs would soon be expiring.

[willandi]

A post shared by a friend of mine on Facebook.

This is what systemic racism looks like. Being dismissed with the usual disclaimers that are never used for whites...

Lekesha Benson
tJeune 4s rSoiaponnslomut o4toole:r4ne9 gfAMd
I don’t like to talk about this, but I feel that it’s a perfect example of systematic racism. My healthy 19 year old son told me he thought he was having a heart attack. He looked fine-I thought he was joking, but he said he was serious & that he’d collapsed outside. Without another word, I grabbed my keys, said come on & we went to the ER. They took him straight back & a doctor never came in to see him. As a woman who has sickle cell anemia, I have more experience than most with going to the hospital, and have NEVER only seen a nurse practitioner but I was told that was normal, so it may be. She came in & asked a normal battery of questions, including asking if he smoked or did drugs. He answered. But then she asked him again if he smoked or did drugs. And I went off. I explained to her that I wasn’t sure if my 19 year old had ever smoked weed, but I could assure her that’s not what he was doing at home with his momma, so can we move forward & find out why his chest hurts. I was FURIOUS. They took blood, did an ekg, sent us home in a really quick amount of time. But when she comes back in with his results, the first thing that (insert cuss word-I want to cuss so bad), was, “well your toxicology screens were clear.” ����Who was ever concerned about that!!!! If you know my children, you know that I have some of the most well mannered, well spoken, respectful young men on the planet. And if you know me as a parent, you know I am the opposite of all that when it comes to my children. I wanted to show my complete ass. I cut her off & asked about his other results. I was there the entire time-so I know they knew his entire medical history & mine & his father’s, & everything. Anyway, she shrugged, said his heart was healthier than hers & said she diagnosed him with anxiety, (without asking the first question about his feelings or anything to determine that he had anxiety). I followed up with his Dr. because I felt that woman saw a young black man & assumed he did drugs. Now with two medical professionals stating he had anxiety & no cardiologist referral, we resume life as normal & then one day, while playing basketball with friends, his heart stops. After waiting 5 months for an autopsy I am told that his death was preventable had medical professionals ordered the correct tests that 1 time that he showed a symptom. That 19 yr olds rarely have heart attacks, but can have heart defects & the fact that he collapsed was THE telltale sign. A simple order for a test or referral to a cardiologist could’ve saved his life. Now, let’s rewind to the experience I had with a younger white child that I know was smoking weed & went to the ER for chest pains & they kept him overnight for observation.

This is how systemic racism works. You’re not listened to, dismissed, & overlooked. This is why more black women die giving birth. I suspect it’s one of the reasons black people are dying at higher rates from COVID.

Now let me move on to the rioting & looting that no one understands. The day that my physician told me my son’s death was preventable & that I should sue, I came home & sat in my car & thought about going up the road & blowing the hospital up. I cannot express to you how serious I am when I tell you I meant it. I wanted to burn it down. I didn’t care about who’s mother, father, lover, or friend was in there. I wanted to light it up. It was 5pm & I walked in my house & went to bed-to stop myself from going to jail. I spoke to a lawyer-but the rage I felt at discussing this was so unhealthy, that I chose to ignore it until I could do so without committing homocide. I still would gladly go to jail the day I see that woman again. Racism is more than ppl calling you nigger. It’s getting pulled over & asked whose car you’re driving if it’s nice. It’s being asked repeatedly about drugs you don’t use. It’s going to the doctor & making complaints repeatedly & never having tests done that could save your life when your counterparts don’t complain & get them. It’s being ignored, dismissed, overlooked, & corrected when you’re correct! Its being told things aren’t racist from people who’ve never experienced racism. It’s being told all lives matter, when the country has shown you that your black one doesn’t matter to them. It’s having your entire history told on the news when you’re the victim, but not that of your killer. It’s knowing when white kids shoot up schools & the news reporting them as being bullied, but black kids are thugs & go to jail until 21 for getting in a fight. It’s all the things you don’t know that happen because it will never happen to you-which is why we call it white privilege. Use it to help your friends who live without it, everyday. #nola The NOLA Network #nootherlifeaffected

[Markburn1]

Will,

My son is white. Everything that happened at the hospital was EXACTLY what happened to my son and I. Anxiety happens. It’s fairly common and the first thing they need to establish is that no drugs are involved. Parents are sometimes the last to know.

Blaming her son’s death on racism is wrong. Even blaming it on what might be perceived as incompetence by the nurse practitioners is usually wrong as well.

Having the thought that burning down the hospital and killing innocent people is way too toxic. Comparing that to looters and rioters doing it ostensibly in George Floyd’s name is insane.

[Markburn1]

The difference between the 2 is you were stopped for speeding. He was pulled over for no reason and told they wanted to let him know his tabs were expiring in 3 months. Big diffeerence. Been driving for 35 years never been pulled over to let me know my tabs would soon be expiring.

Another instance where it's not necessarily racism.

My wife was pulled over for an equally absurd reason. We had recently purchased a used truck. The previous owner, while putting the tags on the plate each year, put the tab that is left after attaching the sticker on the side of the license plate. Actually looked kind of cool with all the different colors. THAT was the reason he stopped her. He then proceeded to ask her a series of questions about what she was doing, where she was going, where was she before, etc. Then told her to be on her way like nothing happened. She's white.

[Markburn1]

Quality of life responses have been debated since sir Robert peele

I think there are some that should be pushed aside from sworn to non sworn such as parking animal issues. Code enforcement issues noise etc. even mental health crisis should be responsible to those with special unique skill sets

However society will need to draw clear response expectation as many of these issues go sideways very quickly

Take mental health issues. Is it mental health or psychotropic drugs or a combination of both? One does not know until you arrive and assess the. It might be too late

Take the loud noise. Send non sworn there knock on door and get greeted by an angry husband who was beating his wife

I am a supporter of quick response to graffiti broken or damaged property by non law enforcement as blight begets blight which sends a signal of non caring

Correct.

What is it that people really want when they say they want to defund the police? They want to set up a community structure that replaces the police with their own people in charge. It will take a New York Minute from there to a community mafia that controls all legal and illegal activity. Rival clans will establish themselves in charge quicker than you can say warlord. Tyranny will reign and there will be fewer or no cops to respond when things get out of hand.

[scrooner]

[CB4]

Correct.

What is it that people really want when they say they want to defund the police? They want to set up a community structure that replaces the police with their own people in charge. It will take a New York Minute from there to a community mafia that controls all legal and illegal activity. Rival clans will establish themselves in charge quicker than you can say warlord. Tyranny will reign and there will be fewer or no cops to respond when things get out of hand.

Rival gangs, community mafia, warlord, tyranny?

Good Lord...

[zagfan24]

Will,

My son is white. Everything that happened at the hospital was EXACTLY what happened to my son and I. Anxiety happens. It’s fairly common and the first thing they need to establish is that no drugs are involved. Parents are sometimes the last to know.

Blaming her son’s death on racism is wrong. Even blaming it on what might be perceived as incompetence by the nurse practitioners is usually wrong as well.

Having the thought that burning down the hospital and killing innocent people is way too toxic. Comparing that to looters and rioters doing it ostensibly in George Floyd’s name is insane.

Anecdotes aside, there is ample empirical evidence that racial minorities receive less analgesia, less prompt treatment, and are less often referred to a higher level of care even when controlling for SES and insurance type. Implicit racial bias affects nearly everyone. "Blaming a death on racism" isn't the same as acknowledging that, on a large scale, racial minorities often face barriers to receiving equitable healthcare.

[Markburn1]

Who decides what level of funding is overfunding? Who decides how to redistribute the Budget and what is "FAIR".

Who will be the one to decide what is criminal and what isn't and which laws to enforce? Is there anybody that is qualified to be a mental health social worker doctor teacher dude?

We have thrown trillions of dollars at schools, hospitals,services, etc. yet here we are. Again, who decides what is more important than any other program? That's why we have elected officials.

Your post is platitudes that will work in a perfect society. There isn't one on this planet.

[Markburn1]

Rival gangs, community mafia, warlord, tyranny?

Good Lord...

See Baltimore for recent history when the police stood down.