Race thread (will be moved on Monday night)

[Hoopaholic]

Right on

I have now been on the front lines of or involved in the planning for the protection of or have been the commanding officer for the protection of all during protests for 177 different protests in my career covering a WIDE range of social issues from abortion to the gulf war, from WTO to police issues.....................in Los angeles we had a protest to deal with every weekend my entire time down there and yes I keep track as I have notes from each event to refer back to on what we did good and what we did badly with a file folder of After Action Reports for each or notes from when I was on the front lines of how command handled the issues and the emotions that we felt or struggled with to remove from our engagement (I am absolutely oppose to abortion but have had to provide protection to those who wanted to obtain the services deep philosophical conflict and a wide range of emotions)

Each one of these events I have found good people and I have seen/engaged with EVIL but each have the right under our constitution to bring forth their grievance in a PEACEFUL manner

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

[tinfoilzag]

Quoting Chris Rock from 'Bring the Pain' on OJ Simpson:

"“That was all about race.” That s*!t wasn’t about race. That s*!t was about fame! If O.J. wasn’t famous, he’d be in jail right now. If O.J. drove a bus, … If O.J. drove a bus, he wouldn’t even be O.J. He’d be Orenthal the Bus Driving Murderer."

[ZagsObserver]

exactly why I think there should be a hard and fast sentencing algorithm and judges cannot alter from the established sentencing mandate

(For Willandi): Definitely think we should be talking about race. These are good conversations. We all have learning and reflection to do. Please, no more memes. They rarely represent the whole story. Money absolutely insulated some from pure justice, and by extension, a lack of money often leads to poorer representation in courts and longer sentences - no doubt in my mind.

In the case of Tanya, it was a combined plea for prostitution and drug dealing, not to mention a prior conviction for bank robbery. Please, stop trying to make a point y’all with flawed comparisons.

[scrooner]

For those of you who prefer news with less Andy Ngo or Tucker Carlson:

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/welcome-to-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone-where-seattle-protesters-gather-without-police/

[JPtheBeasta]

Memes are an effective way of communicating a funny idea, cognitive dissonance, hypocrisy and similar things in a memorable way. However... They seem to preach to the choir and don’t move the needle much because of the problems apparent in the above: namely, lack of context. I saw a similar memes about two armed robberies and the circumstances turned out to be so different and completely explained the difference in sentences.

[MDABE80]

When the stories just don’t fill the bill or represent only a small slice of the issue, the story may jolt a bit really is so aberrant, it does not mean much. And I’m referring to Will’s depiction above.

[vandalzag]

Lots of people .... this is not going to end well. Bad guys have automatic weapons.

How do you know they are bad?

[vandalzag]

did you know about timpa? If not do you find that odd?

My point was during violent arrests far less likely to be killed by police if you are African American than Caucasian.....completely opposite than the media narrative

...so if systemic why would these racist cops bypass the opportunity to kill during a violent offense arrest?

Hoop you thoughts on the the cops not being charged in the Timpa case? One common issue across races is the appearance of lack of culpability for officers during these occurances. Either charges are not brought or in the case of the murder of Daniel Shavers the officer is aquitted because he said that the he feared for his life while holding an AR-15 and commanding Shavers to crawl towards him (which seems impossible if you watch the body cam footage).

[scrooner]

How do you know they are bad?

I assumed they were NRA guys, out there to protect our civil liberties. /s

[JPtheBeasta]

It seems to me that a serious look at banning those holds that the officers used is a good start. They have been approved for use in some places and not others, is my understanding. I have read a back and forth between persons who had it used on them and hey had differing opinions on the potential for harm. These holds obviously are not as safe as some thought, especially if you have compromised health, and no police officer can make a medical judgement like that, in my opinion.

[former1dog]

I’m writing this post having not read much of the remainder of this thread, so my apologies if I repeat some already debated concepts or facts.

I intend to examine systemic racism by police.

I wanted to start out with a few definitions:

Systemic
relating to a system, especially as opposed to a particular part.

Racism
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

With those definitions in mind, I would suggest that systemic racism is one of two things. The most obvious thing that systemic racism could be is that the system has written or widely disseminated policies specifically targeting a particular racial group for prejudice, discrimination or antagonism.
Considering this first attempt at a definition of systemic racism for police, it is quite obvious that systemic racism is not constitutional. In fact, you’ll find systemic written policies seeking to eliminate racism. Furthermore, all employers, but especially the police have widespread training and dissemination of policies that are anti racist.
Jim Crowe laws are a clear example of systemic racism that lines up with the first definition.
I think it wouldn’t take much for all of us to agree that systemic racism as I have attempted to define it in the first way does not exist.
The second way you can define systemic racism is by measuring disparate impact. This means that a particular system has an impact on a particular racial group that is prejudiced, discriminatory or antagonistic. This one is trickier. If you examine the anecdotal evidence and take polls based on peoples feelings and notions, it would be easy to conclude that how the police do their jobs has a disparate impact on black people in this country. To make the determination of systemic racism based on anecdotal evidence, how we feel about the situation or opinion polls would be a disservice. It ignores a series of factors that influence how police interact with all of us.
At this point, we have to speak briefly about poverty. A topic we’ll come back to in depth later on. Poverty has a series of negative side affects, not the least of which is an incentive for criminal behavior. Throughout the country where you find poverty, you will also find higher rates of crime.
Black communities statistically have high levels of poverty, so it should be no surprise that black communities have high levels of criminal activity. Black people account for 12.7% of the population in the United States. Statistically, though, it is not black people that commit crimes at a high rate, it is predominantly young black males. So, roughly 6% of the US population. Keep that 6% number in mind when you review the statistics below.
When you look at the FBI statistics, year after year you see the same trends. Here is a sampling from 2018. The percentages are roughly the same every year going back several decades:
Murder 53.1%
Rape 28.7%
Robbery 54.3%
Aggravated Assault 33.5
All Violent Crime 37.5
All Property Crime 29.3

Across the board, you see percentages well in excess of the 6% of the population represented by young black males who are most likely to commit crimes in the black community. Here is the most important fact to consider, most crimes committed by black people are committed against black people.
Before I proceed with the broader implications of these statistics and how they affect the question of systemic racism defined as disparate impact, I need to reemphasize something. Black people aren’t committing crimes at a higher rate than other racial groups in our country because they are black. Black people are committing crimes at a higher rate because they have the largest population of people in poverty. One of the highest per capita crime rates in the country is in my hometown on the Indian reservation in Montana. There are high rates of violent crime, property crime, and drug crimes, but there are no black people. There is, however, rampant poverty.
Getting back to the primary discussion, if 6% of the population (young black men) are responsible for 37.5 % of violent crime and 29.3% of the property crime, it is a logical conclusion that that segment of the population is going to have a significant level of interaction with the police, especially in an investigatory status. So, when one compares the statistic of police killings of black people in any given year, one might expect that those statistics would look similar to the number of interactions that they have with black people. Except that according to the Washington Post, that isn’t the case. Consider 2018:
Police Killed 991 people
229 of those people were black, or 23%. All but 10 were black males
90% of these individuals were armed and at least in theory posed a threat to officers. Of the 23 people who were unarmed, 14 were fleeing the scene. So there are 9 individuals unarmed, not fleeing the scene killed by police. You’ll find extenuating circumstances for most of those 9, which you can find details of in the Washington Post database.
It is instructive to know also that in 2018, 185 officers died in the line of duty. It is a dangerous job.
It is awful that 991 people were killed by the police in 2018. It is awful that 229 of those people were black. It is awful that 9 of those black people were unarmed.
However, when 6% of the population is committing 37.5% of the violent crimes, what is truly surprising is that only 23% of those killed by police happen to be black and that most of these unfortunate events could have been avoided had those killed not been armed or fleeing from the police. The statistics show restraint, relative to the over all numbers, rather than a disparate impact.
So the question remains, are the police systemically racist against black people especially as it relates to black people having to fear for their lives? A review of the evidence and the statistics supports a conclusion that no, police are not systemically racist against black people. However, that doesn’t mean in specific communities and of course specific police officers are not racist. Of course you’re going to find that.
What is truly remarkable about the event that triggered the protests is there are no dissenting opinions, at all. Everyone, from all points of view, all colors, ethnicities, political party and ideology has agreed. George Floyd shouldn’t have died and the police officers involved are responsible for his death. The justice system in Minneapolis has moved swiftly to hold these officers to account for their actions. We don’t know if the officers were racist, I haven’t personally seen evidence of that. We don’t know if the Minneapolis police department is systemically racist, although there have been complaints and measures taken for many years leading to this incident that suggest the department has been trying to battle at the very least the perception that it is racist. Those measures included hiring as the head of police a black man who has been active against what he has seen as racism in the department.
I had intended to write about what I think are much more important problems facing black communities, but this post is getting ridiculously long. I will save that for another time.

I apologize for the format of this post. I wrote it in word and then copied and pasted and it now looks awful

[MDABE80]

How do you know they are bad?

Bad= a group of individuals who take over 7 blocks of property (including a police precinct) they don't own......and use/threaten force to protect what they don't own. Simple enough I hope. Common sense helps.

[scrooner]

Bad= a group of individuals who take over 7 blocks of property (including a police precinct) they don't own......and use/threaten force to protect what they don't own. Simple enough I hope. Common sense helps.

So, like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AytF_YSkXDU

[kitzbuel]

I’m writing this post having not read much of the remainder of this thread, so my apologies if I repeat some already debated concepts or facts.

I intend to examine systemic racism by police.

I wanted to start out with a few definitions:

Systemic
relating to a system, especially as opposed to a particular part.

Racism
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

With those definitions in mind, I would suggest that systemic racism is one of two things. The most obvious thing that systemic racism could be is that the system has written or widely disseminated policies specifically targeting a particular racial group for prejudice, discrimination or antagonism.
Considering this first attempt at a definition of systemic racism for police, it is quite obvious that systemic racism is not constitutional. In fact, you’ll find systemic written policies seeking to eliminate racism. Furthermore, all employers, but especially the police have widespread training and dissemination of policies that are anti racist.
Jim Crowe laws are a clear example of systemic racism that lines up with the first definition.
I think it wouldn’t take much for all of us to agree that systemic racism as I have attempted to define it in the first way does not exist.
The second way you can define systemic racism is by measuring disparate impact. This means that a particular system has an impact on a particular racial group that is prejudiced, discriminatory or antagonistic. This one is trickier. If you examine the anecdotal evidence and take polls based on peoples feelings and notions, it would be easy to conclude that how the police do their jobs has a disparate impact on black people in this country. To make the determination of systemic racism based on anecdotal evidence, how we feel about the situation or opinion polls would be a disservice. It ignores a series of factors that influence how police interact with all of us.
At this point, we have to speak briefly about poverty. A topic we’ll come back to in depth later on. Poverty has a series of negative side affects, not the least of which is an incentive for criminal behavior. Throughout the country where you find poverty, you will also find higher rates of crime.
Black communities statistically have high levels of poverty, so it should be no surprise that black communities have high levels of criminal activity. Black people account for 12.7% of the population in the United States. Statistically, though, it is not black people that commit crimes at a high rate, it is predominantly young black males. So, roughly 6% of the US population. Keep that 6% number in mind when you review the statistics below.
When you look at the FBI statistics, year after year you see the same trends. Here is a sampling from 2018. The percentages are roughly the same every year going back several decades:
Murder 53.1%
Rape 28.7%
Robbery 54.3%
Aggravated Assault 33.5
All Violent Crime 37.5
All Property Crime 29.3

Across the board, you see percentages well in excess of the 6% of the population represented by young black males who are most likely to commit crimes in the black community. Here is the most important fact to consider, most crimes committed by black people are committed against black people.
Before I proceed with the broader implications of these statistics and how they affect the question of systemic racism defined as disparate impact, I need to reemphasize something. Black people aren’t committing crimes at a higher rate than other racial groups in our country because they are black. Black people are committing crimes at a higher rate because they have the largest population of people in poverty. One of the highest per capita crime rates in the country is in my hometown on the Indian reservation in Montana. There are high rates of violent crime, property crime, and drug crimes, but there are no black people. There is, however, rampant poverty.
Getting back to the primary discussion, if 6% of the population (young black men) are responsible for 37.5 % of violent crime and 29.3% of the property crime, it is a logical conclusion that that segment of the population is going to have a significant level of interaction with the police, especially in an investigatory status. So, when one compares the statistic of police killings of black people in any given year, one might expect that those statistics would look similar to the number of interactions that they have with black people. Except that according to the Washington Post, that isn’t the case. Consider 2018:
Police Killed 991 people
229 of those people were black, or 23%. All but 10 were black males
90% of these individuals were armed and at least in theory posed a threat to officers. Of the 23 people who were unarmed, 14 were fleeing the scene. So there are 9 individuals unarmed, not fleeing the scene killed by police. You’ll find extenuating circumstances for most of those 9, which you can find details of in the Washington Post database.
It is instructive to know also that in 2018, 185 officers died in the line of duty. It is a dangerous job.
It is awful that 991 people were killed by the police in 2018. It is awful that 229 of those people were black. It is awful that 9 of those black people were unarmed.
However, when 6% of the population is committing 37.5% of the violent crimes, what is truly surprising is that only 23% of those killed by police happen to be black and that most of these unfortunate events could have been avoided had those killed not been armed or fleeing from the police. The statistics show restraint, relative to the over all numbers, rather than a disparate impact.
So the question remains, are the police systemically racist against black people especially as it relates to black people having to fear for their lives? A review of the evidence and the statistics supports a conclusion that no, police are not systemically racist against black people. However, that doesn’t mean in specific communities and of course specific police officers are not racist. Of course you’re going to find that.
What is truly remarkable about the event that triggered the protests is there are no dissenting opinions, at all. Everyone, from all points of view, all colors, ethnicities, political party and ideology has agreed. George Floyd shouldn’t have died and the police officers involved are responsible for his death. The justice system in Minneapolis has moved swiftly to hold these officers to account for their actions. We don’t know if the officers were racist, I haven’t personally seen evidence of that. We don’t know if the Minneapolis police department is systemically racist, although there have been complaints and measures taken for many years leading to this incident that suggest the department has been trying to battle at the very least the perception that it is racist. Those measures included hiring as the head of police a black man who has been active against what he has seen as racism in the department.
I had intended to write about what I think are much more important problems facing black communities, but this post is getting ridiculously long. I will save that for another time.

Some of us were telling old war stories earlier and I missed out.

When I was a either a senior Captain or junior Major, I was driving from a week at Dover Air Force Base back to Virginia. Another officer from my unit was riding with me, he was African American. We were driving through central Delaware and eastern Maryland; bucolic, rural farmland with lots of corn and bean fields, occasional horse farms. I think we wanted to stop for lunch along the way and we needed some cash. As we drove through some small town, I looked down the main street and saw a little community bank, so I turned in to use the ATM. The both of us hopped out and went into the bank lobby and used the ATM.

As we pulled out of the parking lot my buddy turned to me and said there was no way in the world he would have ever stopped at that bank if I had not been there. I asked why not, rather bemused. He said because he would probably get arrested.

I don't know what the likelihood of that happening was, but it was enough a concern to him that he said he wouldn't take the risk. Now I know I feel confident stopping anywhere in DC to us an ATM or get gas; NE, SE. I would certainly pay attention and would take stock of my surroundings, particularly at night, but if I have to I do it.

My question is why does another Officer in the US Military have to feel afraid about stopping at a bank to use an ATM in America?

[LongIslandZagFan]

I’m writing this post having not read much of the remainder of this thread, so my apologies if I repeat some already debated concepts or facts.

I intend to examine systemic racism by police.

I wanted to start out with a few definitions:

Systemic
relating to a system, especially as opposed to a particular part.

Racism
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

With those definitions in mind, I would suggest that systemic racism is one of two things. The most obvious thing that systemic racism could be is that the system has written or widely disseminated policies specifically targeting a particular racial group for prejudice, discrimination or antagonism.
Considering this first attempt at a definition of systemic racism for police, it is quite obvious that systemic racism is not constitutional. In fact, you’ll find systemic written policies seeking to eliminate racism. Furthermore, all employers, but especially the police have widespread training and dissemination of policies that are anti racist.
Jim Crowe laws are a clear example of systemic racism that lines up with the first definition.
I think it wouldn’t take much for all of us to agree that systemic racism as I have attempted to define it in the first way does not exist.
The second way you can define systemic racism is by measuring disparate impact. This means that a particular system has an impact on a particular racial group that is prejudiced, discriminatory or antagonistic. This one is trickier. If you examine the anecdotal evidence and take polls based on peoples feelings and notions, it would be easy to conclude that how the police do their jobs has a disparate impact on black people in this country. To make the determination of systemic racism based on anecdotal evidence, how we feel about the situation or opinion polls would be a disservice. It ignores a series of factors that influence how police interact with all of us.
At this point, we have to speak briefly about poverty. A topic we’ll come back to in depth later on. Poverty has a series of negative side affects, not the least of which is an incentive for criminal behavior. Throughout the country where you find poverty, you will also find higher rates of crime.
Black communities statistically have high levels of poverty, so it should be no surprise that black communities have high levels of criminal activity. Black people account for 12.7% of the population in the United States. Statistically, though, it is not black people that commit crimes at a high rate, it is predominantly young black males. So, roughly 6% of the US population. Keep that 6% number in mind when you review the statistics below.
When you look at the FBI statistics, year after year you see the same trends. Here is a sampling from 2018. The percentages are roughly the same every year going back several decades:
Murder 53.1%
Rape 28.7%
Robbery 54.3%
Aggravated Assault 33.5
All Violent Crime 37.5
All Property Crime 29.3

Across the board, you see percentages well in excess of the 6% of the population represented by young black males who are most likely to commit crimes in the black community. Here is the most important fact to consider, most crimes committed by black people are committed against black people.
Before I proceed with the broader implications of these statistics and how they affect the question of systemic racism defined as disparate impact, I need to reemphasize something. Black people aren’t committing crimes at a higher rate than other racial groups in our country because they are black. Black people are committing crimes at a higher rate because they have the largest population of people in poverty. One of the highest per capita crime rates in the country is in my hometown on the Indian reservation in Montana. There are high rates of violent crime, property crime, and drug crimes, but there are no black people. There is, however, rampant poverty.
Getting back to the primary discussion, if 6% of the population (young black men) are responsible for 37.5 % of violent crime and 29.3% of the property crime, it is a logical conclusion that that segment of the population is going to have a significant level of interaction with the police, especially in an investigatory status. So, when one compares the statistic of police killings of black people in any given year, one might expect that those statistics would look similar to the number of interactions that they have with black people. Except that according to the Washington Post, that isn’t the case. Consider 2018:
Police Killed 991 people
229 of those people were black, or 23%. All but 10 were black males
90% of these individuals were armed and at least in theory posed a threat to officers. Of the 23 people who were unarmed, 14 were fleeing the scene. So there are 9 individuals unarmed, not fleeing the scene killed by police. You’ll find extenuating circumstances for most of those 9, which you can find details of in the Washington Post database.
It is instructive to know also that in 2018, 185 officers died in the line of duty. It is a dangerous job.
It is awful that 991 people were killed by the police in 2018. It is awful that 229 of those people were black. It is awful that 9 of those black people were unarmed.
However, when 6% of the population is committing 37.5% of the violent crimes, what is truly surprising is that only 23% of those killed by police happen to be black and that most of these unfortunate events could have been avoided had those killed not been armed or fleeing from the police. The statistics show restraint, relative to the over all numbers, rather than a disparate impact.
So the question remains, are the police systemically racist against black people especially as it relates to black people having to fear for their lives? A review of the evidence and the statistics supports a conclusion that no, police are not systemically racist against black people. However, that doesn’t mean in specific communities and of course specific police officers are not racist. Of course you’re going to find that.
What is truly remarkable about the event that triggered the protests is there are no dissenting opinions, at all. Everyone, from all points of view, all colors, ethnicities, political party and ideology has agreed. George Floyd shouldn’t have died and the police officers involved are responsible for his death. The justice system in Minneapolis has moved swiftly to hold these officers to account for their actions. We don’t know if the officers were racist, I haven’t personally seen evidence of that. We don’t know if the Minneapolis police department is systemically racist, although there have been complaints and measures taken for many years leading to this incident that suggest the department has been trying to battle at the very least the perception that it is racist. Those measures included hiring as the head of police a black man who has been active against what he has seen as racism in the department.
I had intended to write about what I think are much more important problems facing black communities, but this post is getting ridiculously long. I will save that for another time.

I apologize for the format of this post. I wrote it in word and then copied and pasted and it now looks awful

Thanks for the information...

Per a U of Mich law school study. A black male is 7 times more likely to be wrongfully convicted of murder... 75% of those are directly related to police misconduct. Take those for what they are... Not going to bother with the back and forth... just offering information.

I would be interested in looking at violent crime rates based on income level.