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Thread: Race thread (will be moved on Monday night)

  1. #151
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    The Long, Painful History of Police Brutality in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by scrooner View Post
    I'll have to assume that you next to nothing about the Ahmaud Arbery case. It's like you're participating in a class discussion without having read the book.
    The link I posted at the top of the page.

    If you don't look at the ideas presented and make your counter claims based on those, one way or the other, and just on your feelings, experience or instincts, you are doing yourself and the rest of us, a disservice.
    It's not funny.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bing View Post
    Good story with a couple of cavaets.

    You forgot the part where most of the 57 officers just walked by the guy as he was laying there, bleeding profusely from his ear.

    And you forgot the part where they LIED and said the victim “tripped and fell”.

    Your story left those parts out.
    Thanks for the info, was not aware of these, but it still does not significantly change the narrative.

    - This was not a race issue. Both the policer officers and the victim were white.

    - The 75 year old man initiated the confrontation unnecessarily.

    - The police made a series of bad judgements which escalated the situation and led to the injury of the victim.

    - The officers quit the special force because the felt they were not getting support from the City.

    - Not providing assist to the fallen man is of course totally unacceptable. There were no other protestors around, so they had nothing to be protect themselves from.

    - Of course lying about how the victim ended up on the ground is never acceptable and certainly could justify suspension without pay.

    Just keep in mind, I never took a position in my post, I simply made comments on other paths the victim, the police officers on site and the City could have made (not necessarily should have made) to de-escalate the situation.

    ZagDad

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    Probably not a good idea for A 75 yr old to walk in from of a60 man force in riot gear going somewhere as a pack to do a mission . and then sticking your hand out and tripping backwards and falling. Looking from many angles, this oldster set himself up or trouble. Do not understand the walking past him. But somebody called the ambulance. Good on them.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB4 View Post
    There is a group of people in the USA that doesn't care about black lives. The Constitution says black lives matter equally with white and all other lives. Yet the establishment and our institutions treat them as mattering less.

    In response to this reality, particularly police brutality, people protested and "black lives matter" became a repeated phrase like "no justice no peace." The movement is now called black lives matter. Within that movement there's a diverse set of views.

    The phrase "black lives matter" wasn't intended to piss off well-intentioned white people who chose not to learn about the experience of black people in the USA. The phrase "all lives matter," which is true and non-controversial in it's ordinary meaning, takes away from the unique focus of this civil rights movement: it draws attention away from the root of the issue which institutional racism against African Americans.
    Very early in the Black Lives Matter movement, in fact just after the movement announced their name, I was watching an interview with an African American Pastor (Sorry don't remember the TV program or the Pastor's name). The pastor noted that he had been involved with the BLM movement when they were discussing what to name their movement. The pastor noted that the founders of the BLM knew that the name Black Lives Matter was going to be incendiary and they knew that the "All Lives Matter" response was going to detract from their message. The issue was getting the word out and they knew that the BLM name would immediately give them great access to TV media, print media, social media etc.

    Whether the Pastor was telling the truth or not I don't know but you certainly have to be impressed with the reactions they have been able to produce.

    CB4, your statements above and the following statement:

    Black lives matter is 100% about the black American experience, starting with the collective experience with police and law enforcement. I'd say it's a civil rights movement not a political one.
    Your description of the BLM movement make the actions of the BLM over the last few weeks more understandable

    Thank you for the enlightenment.

    ZagDad

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    Quote Originally Posted by scrooner View Post
    I'll have to assume that you next to nothing about the Ahmaud Arbery case. It's like you're participating in a class discussion without having read the book.
    Your standard for determining if black lives are valued is the US is 0 racially motivated deaths? There are around 330,000,000 in the US and if you think there will be a future where is doesn't happen again then I want to live in your utopia. I read about it before you brought it up and I couldn't find anyone who wrote or commented on it saying it was anything less that a horrific act. I couldn't find anyone that was fine with it. Nowhere did I see they were just going to ignore the murder.

    I just read were Reche Caldwell was shot and killed at his house today during an attempted robbery. It's terrible. I fell awful for his family and I hope the prosecute the offenders to the fullest extent of the law. What i don't want is a mob to form to avenge his death. I don't want lives lost, businesses destroyed, and neighborhoods burning because this won't bring him back.

    Sometimes it takes a visceral event like Floyd's death to get everyone to back change. It appears we are ready as a country for serious criminal justice reform. Rioting works against reform.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagDad84 View Post
    Thanks for the info, was not aware of these, but it still does not significantly change the narrative.

    - This was not a race issue. Both the policer officers and the victim were white.

    - The 75 year old man initiated the confrontation unnecessarily.

    - The police made a series of bad judgements which escalated the situation and led to the injury of the victim.

    - The officers quit the special force because the felt they were not getting support from the City.

    - Not providing assist to the fallen man is of course totally unacceptable. There were no other protestors around, so they had nothing to be protect themselves from.

    - Of course lying about how the victim ended up on the ground is never acceptable and certainly could justify suspension without pay.

    Just keep in mind, I never took a position in my post, I simply made comments on other paths the victim, the police officers on site and the City could have made (not necessarily should have made) to de-escalate the situation.

    ZagDad
    I have refrained from engaging but need to set
    The facts straight on this incident as the media narrative is not being truthful and have edited and
    Limited the video of entire situation

    As a chief of
    Police for 12 years,working in Los Angeles where we had protests weekly you create a squad dedicated to creating a safe zone
    If the decision is made based upon the facts before you you order to move forward
    Upon engagement the front lines continue forward and secondary lines have arrest teams and medics. That way an arrest and or medical care
    Can be conducted in a safer process thus why a more experienced officer
    Told the younger one to fall back InTo hold the line knowing next wave has arrest and
    Trained medics

    The police video,yes it’s standard to video tape protest and riots, shows that the third wave medics
    Immediately started treatment and extricated out the back of the formation to an ambulance for care

    Makes you wonder why the tv station selectively edited and released
    Basketball...The Toy Department of Life

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoopaholic View Post
    I have refrained from engaging but need to set
    The facts straight on this incident as the media narrative is not being truthful and have edited and
    Limited the video of entire situation

    As a chief of
    Police for 12 years,working in Los Angeles where we had protests weekly you create a squad dedicated to creating a safe zone
    If the decision is made based upon the facts before you you order to move forward
    Upon engagement the front lines continue forward and secondary lines have arrest teams and medics. That way an arrest and or medical care
    Can be conducted in a safer process thus why a more experienced officer
    Told the younger one to fall back InTo hold the line knowing next wave has arrest and
    Trained medics

    The police video,yes it’s standard to video tape protest and riots, shows that the third wave medics
    Immediately started treatment and extricated out the back of the formation to an ambulance for care

    Makes you wonder why the tv station selectively edited and released
    Thanks for the Clarification Hoopaholic.

    Makes you wonder,

    ZagDad

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagDad84 View Post
    Thanks for the Clarification Hoopaholic.

    Makes you wonder,

    ZagDad

    Should add part of design of this is to allow 3 or 4 line to hold up shields to further protect arrestee or victim and officers engaged from being hit by projectiles that are a real issue and
    Concern during these
    Volatile incidents

    As to press release if they did this
    Intentionally that is wrong. But I suspect the commander in charge was near back and those treating probably made an assumption and inaccurate info was passed along. But it needs to be investigated to make sure this was not an intentional lie
    Basketball...The Toy Department of Life

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoopaholic View Post
    Should add part of design of this is to allow 3 or 4 line to hold up shields to further protect arrestee or victim and officers engaged from being hit by projectiles that are a real issue and
    Concern during these
    Volatile incidents

    As to press release if they did this
    Intentionally that is wrong. But I suspect the commander in charge was near back and those treating probably made an assumption and inaccurate info was passed along. But it needs to be investigated to make sure this was not an intentional lie
    How pleased would you be with your front line cop who pushed over an old man who wasn't in an aggressive posture, causing terrible PR for the police force and forthcoming legal fees and settlement for the city, not to mention injury to the old timer or the fact that this was done during a protest premised upon boneheaded decisions by police?

    I don't mean to be facetious but I assure what you're saying is 100 percent accurate, but the whole situation stinks no matter how you look at it. Probably something that they specifically talked about avoiding before they went out that day.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB4 View Post
    How pleased would you be with your front line cop who pushed over an old man who wasn't in an aggressive posture, causing terrible PR for the police force and forthcoming legal fees and settlement for the city, not to mention injury to the old timer or the fact that this was done during a protest premised upon boneheaded decisions by police?

    I don't mean to be facetious but I assure what you're saying is 100 percent accurate, but the whole situation stinks no matter how you look at it. Probably something that they specifically talked about avoiding before they went out that day.
    The individual refused to
    Follow Multiple lawful orders

    The individual advanced on the officers

    Age does not matter in riot situations I have been hit by a brick holding the line on i5 during Iraq war
    By a lady who was 63 years old

    Individual appears to reach out at the officer

    It is a trained technique to extend out to make safety space

    His actions deflected the ability to focus on the crowd they were sent to displace


    Was not a time for discussion when as we have seen you could or are
    Facing rocks,bricks, water bottles of concrete,knives,guns and other weapons

    As to your comment they should have talked about engagement rules I can almost furantee not
    Only talked about it but have conducted training on it

    Optics for a lay person can be troubling but these situations are serious. Adrenaline is flowing and people are scared and
    Nervous despite how many hours you train for this type
    If incident

    As to lawsuit that is always a reality no matter what the decisions are. If they had chosen to stop and allow him to remain and he got hit by a brick the city would be sued. My guess is the multiple warnings were recorded and video taped and a willful defiant person not willing to comply with multiple
    Lawful orders will have a difficult time being successful. Just my opinion
    Basketball...The Toy Department of Life

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    here's the Erie DA on his view of the Buffalo situation. Give it a listen to gain his perspective on what is happening and why the two officers have been charged. It differs with some views here so be advised

    https://www.abc10.com/video/news/loc...d-7a68342b5a7a

    here's an edited version of the above

    https://abcnews.go.com/US/buffalo-po...ry?id=71106787
    Last edited by bballbeachbum; 06-07-2020 at 07:30 PM. Reason: added edited version

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    Quote Originally Posted by tinfoilzag View Post
    Nowhere did I see they were just going to ignore the murder.
    I guess you missed the part where the District Attorney told the police captain there was no grounds for arrest, and the McMichaels were roaming free for nearly two months as the case was passed to another DA who was just sitting on it, until the video went public and under immense political and public pressure the Georgia Bureau of Investigations finally took them into custody. You can be certain that if that video hadn't come out, nothing would have been done.

    "The words “Equal Justice Under Law” are carved in the pediment of the United States Supreme Court. This is precisely what protesters are rightly demanding. It is a wholesome and unifying demand—one that all of us should be able to get behind. We must not be distracted by a small number of lawbreakers. The protests are defined by tens of thousands of people of conscience who are insisting that we live up to our values—our values as people and our values as a nation." - James Mattis

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    I’d like to thank Hoopaholic for this series of posts. Quite eye opening.
    Last edited by MDABE80; 06-07-2020 at 11:37 PM.

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    2 viruses -- COVID and racism --devastate the black community and threaten America's stability


    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/viru..._headlines_hed
    It's not funny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoopaholic View Post
    The individual refused to
    Follow Multiple lawful orders

    The individual advanced on the officers

    Age does not matter in riot situations I have been hit by a brick holding the line on i5 during Iraq war
    By a lady who was 63 years old

    Individual appears to reach out at the officer

    It is a trained technique to extend out to make safety space

    His actions deflected the ability to focus on the crowd they were sent to displace


    Was not a time for discussion when as we have seen you could or are
    Facing rocks,bricks, water bottles of concrete,knives,guns and other weapons

    As to your comment they should have talked about engagement rules I can almost furantee not
    Only talked about it but have conducted training on it

    Optics for a lay person can be troubling but these situations are serious. Adrenaline is flowing and people are scared and
    Nervous despite how many hours you train for this type
    If incident

    As to lawsuit that is always a reality no matter what the decisions are. If they had chosen to stop and allow him to remain and he got hit by a brick the city would be sued. My guess is the multiple warnings were recorded and video taped and a willful defiant person not willing to comply with multiple
    Lawful orders will have a difficult time being successful. Just my opinion
    Yeah true. The guy was a dumb ass for walking up to cops in riot gear. The guy tumbled pretty easily. The cops were visibly upset after they saw what happened. But it's just sort of a bummer to see the police push the guy when, all things considered, they probably didn't need to. I'm not calling for the guys badge or think he should be in trouble, but it's just discouraging for me as a lay person who wants to see the police be successful and get a better public perception after this whole thing is through.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scrooner View Post
    I guess you missed the part where the District Attorney told the police captain there was no grounds for arrest, and the McMichaels were roaming free for nearly two months as the case was passed to another DA who was just sitting on it, until the video went public and under immense political and public pressure the Georgia Bureau of Investigations finally took them into custody. You can be certain that if that video hadn't come out, nothing would have been done.

    "The words “Equal Justice Under Law” are carved in the pediment of the United States Supreme Court. This is precisely what protesters are rightly demanding. It is a wholesome and unifying demand—one that all of us should be able to get behind. We must not be distracted by a small number of lawbreakers. The protests are defined by tens of thousands of people of conscience who are insisting that we live up to our values—our values as people and our values as a nation." - James Mattis
    I didn't miss it at all. How could I with all the coverage. It proves my point: This isn't acceptable in the U.S.

    I'm not on any side of this except that we use due process and not try cases in the court of public opinion.
    We are on this earth to live, not to avoid death.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoopaholic View Post
    The individual refused to
    Follow Multiple lawful orders

    The individual advanced on the officers

    Age does not matter in riot situations I have been hit by a brick holding the line on i5 during Iraq war
    By a lady who was 63 years old

    Individual appears to reach out at the officer

    It is a trained technique to extend out to make safety space

    His actions deflected the ability to focus on the crowd they were sent to displace


    Was not a time for discussion when as we have seen you could or are
    Facing rocks,bricks, water bottles of concrete,knives,guns and other weapons

    As to your comment they should have talked about engagement rules I can almost furantee not
    Only talked about it but have conducted training on it

    Optics for a lay person can be troubling but these situations are serious. Adrenaline is flowing and people are scared and
    Nervous despite how many hours you train for this type
    If incident

    As to lawsuit that is always a reality no matter what the decisions are. If they had chosen to stop and allow him to remain and he got hit by a brick the city would be sued. My guess is the multiple warnings were recorded and video taped and a willful defiant person not willing to comply with multiple
    Lawful orders will have a difficult time being successful. Just my opinion
    How lawful was the report that stated the area was cleared without incident but one man had tripped and fell?
    gobroncsgozags: "Have a great day in the podunk, crap hole known as Roslyn."

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    Quote Originally Posted by tinfoilzag View Post
    I didn't miss it at all. How could I with all the coverage. It proves my point: This isn't acceptable in the U.S.

    I'm not on any side of this except that we use due process and not try cases in the court of public opinion.
    You're right. Everyone deserves due process, and that's why everybody is so darn upset right now. George Floyd never got due process. Breona Taylor never got due process. Eric Garner never got due process. They all were killed at the hands of negligent police with little to no accountability. At a certain point when the system has failed a number of people, they feel like there is no alternative other than the court of public opinion because that's how the laws change whether we like to admit it or not.

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    It's not funny.

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    My world is my world... my actions are my actions, my responsibilities are simple.... Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.... not religious but live by the teachings of Jesus the best I can.... I cannot change this world we live in but I can help make a difference in the lives of those I know... loving my family, my friends and offering a hand up to those in need that I meet... that is my world... and cheering on our Zags through thick and thin... IMO, this discussion does not belong here.... there are other forums on this site for this discussion... basketball board...

    Just my opinion...

    Go!! Zags!!!
    "Learn from the past, Plan for the future, Live in the Now!"

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    Thanks willandi. Empathy is quickly becoming a lost art.

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    Wow, it's been ages since I've been here. Anyways, I cheer for all Zags players no matter what color they are. White, Black, French, Serbian, it doesn't matter. The only colors I see are silver and blue.

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    I just can’t comprehend that there are people who don’t feel there is racism in this country and that it is a problem.

    I also can’t comprehend that there are people who feel there is no lasting effect on the black community from slavery and segregation.

    I also can’t comprehend how a person cannot see there is a profound distinct difference between their experience and the experience of a black person in America.

    I posted quotes on this very issue that are just as pertinent today as they were when MLK said them, I urge you to educate yourself beyond your own view.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zagfan24 View Post
    It is often noted how much this transition can be a major one for international players, but for a 17-year-old black teen to commit to a college where 71% of students and 85% of faculty are white takes genuine courage. I hope that Gonzaga has been and will continue to be a safe and welcoming home for all who have done so.
    According to your numbers Gonzaga University does have a racial disparity issue especially among its faculty.

    Thanks for sharing was unaware.

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    Some additional thoughts. To start I realized when I started this thread it could become a tinder box. I tried to keep the focus on Gonzaga basketball to some extent, but obviously knew it could quickly go in other directions. I appreciate the mods keeping the thread open. This discussion is inherently uncomfortable...and that is good. Civil discourse is always good, but that isn't akin to "all opinions should be given equal value." Racist statements, whether implicit or explicit, aren't part of constructive discourse. Nor should we be trapped by fallacy to moderation, where it is assumed that the real answers lie somewhere in the middle. While keeping the thread open means being respectful of one another, IMO it does not follow that a polite conversation is, in the real world, always the helpful direction. I don't respect those who spout racist ideology, and I won't be polite and respectful if they do so.


    Quote Originally Posted by SorenTodd45 View Post
    Wow, it's been ages since I've been here. Anyways, I cheer for all Zags players no matter what color they are. White, Black, French, Serbian, it doesn't matter. The only colors I see are silver and blue.
    I get your where you are coming from as it pertains to Gonzaga basketball. But the myth of colorblindness serving as the ideal is important to dispel. Recognizing that there ARE differences in the experience of black men and women in our society is important. This includes Gonzaga basketball players. Pretending that race and culture don't exist serves only to invalidate the experiences of racial and ethnic minorities.


    Quote Originally Posted by bigblahla View Post
    IMO, this discussion does not belong here.... there are other forums on this site for this discussion... basketball board...Just my opinion...

    Go!! Zags!!!
    I respectfully disagree. I think that, as I said in my OP, race permeates every aspect of our society and every institution within it. I do wish we could have focused mainly on the topic of our players and program, but things quickly got off track.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinfoilzag View Post
    The name "Black lives matter" is a cloaked insult. It's meant to divide Americans. I'm not talking about the people in BLM, just the name.
    Again, I respectfully disagree. Black lives matter is a response not just to the numerous deaths of black individuals that involved some scale of racial prejudice and discrimination, but to large scale societal, legal, and judicial maltreatment and indifference to those deaths. In contrast, I find the "All Lives Matter" retort obnoxious at best. I've never been at a Childhood Cancer Fundraiser and heard criticism for not raising money for other diseases. I've never been at an Autism Awareness event and been vilified for not raising awareness of other developmental disabilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by JPtheBeasta View Post
    Nebulous is a good word. I’m not singling out anyone here but it is hard for me to figure out what is being asked of me on these issues of police brutality and systemic racism issue. I feel that I worked very hard to be where I am and feel more privileged to be born in America to loving parents who stayed together and provided for my basic needs. I do not take that for granted. I also don’t take for granted the example they showed, as they both went to college and were good moral examples (in my opinion). They taught me not to be a respector of persons, and for a number of reasons. I am thankful that I was born with average to above average intelligence— although I respect anyone’s opinion to think otherwise. I was born into a situation to have a chance to succeed that many other persons don’t. I do feel privileged for so many reasons, but race is at the bottom of that list.
    I appreciate you sharing those thoughts JP. Like you, I have had innumerable privileges in my life. White Privilege is a tough construct because it is so often misstated as "being privileged" which is not the same thing. I understand why people thus hear the term, and having worked hard and overcome adversity quickly dismiss the entire notion. Privilege can mean both unseen advantages that your race, or gender, bring your way. But, perhaps more importantly, privilege can mean that there are barriers that don't exist that you might never think about. I strongly recommend this article: https://www.racialequitytools.org/re...s/mcintosh.pdf

    I'll end with this quote from Tom Herman, Texas FB coach, which I really appreciated. In bringing the topic back to GU Basketball, it's a notion worthy of consideration.

    "We're going to pack 100,000 people into (the stadium) and millions watch on TV that are predominantly white -- not all of them certainly, but most of 'em white," Herman told the American-Statesman. "We're gonna cheer when they score touchdowns, and we're gonna hug our buddy when they get sacks or an interception. "But we gonna let them date our daughter? Are we going to hire them in a position of power in our company? That's the question I have for America. You can't have it both ways."

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