Race thread (will be moved on Monday night)

[tinfoilzag]

I guess you missed the part where the District Attorney told the police captain there was no grounds for arrest, and the McMichaels were roaming free for nearly two months as the case was passed to another DA who was just sitting on it, until the video went public and under immense political and public pressure the Georgia Bureau of Investigations finally took them into custody. You can be certain that if that video hadn't come out, nothing would have been done.

"The words “Equal Justice Under Law” are carved in the pediment of the United States Supreme Court. This is precisely what protesters are rightly demanding. It is a wholesome and unifying demand—one that all of us should be able to get behind. We must not be distracted by a small number of lawbreakers. The protests are defined by tens of thousands of people of conscience who are insisting that we live up to our values—our values as people and our values as a nation." - James Mattis

I didn't miss it at all. How could I with all the coverage. It proves my point: This isn't acceptable in the U.S.

I'm not on any side of this except that we use due process and not try cases in the court of public opinion.

[Bing]

The individual refused to
Follow Multiple lawful orders

The individual advanced on the officers

Age does not matter in riot situations I have been hit by a brick holding the line on i5 during Iraq war
By a lady who was 63 years old

Individual appears to reach out at the officer

It is a trained technique to extend out to make safety space

His actions deflected the ability to focus on the crowd they were sent to displace


Was not a time for discussion when as we have seen you could or are
Facing rocks,bricks, water bottles of concrete,knives,guns and other weapons

As to your comment they should have talked about engagement rules I can almost furantee not
Only talked about it but have conducted training on it

Optics for a lay person can be troubling but these situations are serious. Adrenaline is flowing and people are scared and
Nervous despite how many hours you train for this type
If incident

As to lawsuit that is always a reality no matter what the decisions are. If they had chosen to stop and allow him to remain and he got hit by a brick the city would be sued. My guess is the multiple warnings were recorded and video taped and a willful defiant person not willing to comply with multiple
Lawful orders will have a difficult time being successful. Just my opinion

How lawful was the report that stated the area was cleared without incident but one man had tripped and fell?

[Zag1203]

I didn't miss it at all. How could I with all the coverage. It proves my point: This isn't acceptable in the U.S.

I'm not on any side of this except that we use due process and not try cases in the court of public opinion.

You're right. Everyone deserves due process, and that's why everybody is so darn upset right now. George Floyd never got due process. Breona Taylor never got due process. Eric Garner never got due process. They all were killed at the hands of negligent police with little to no accountability. At a certain point when the system has failed a number of people, they feel like there is no alternative other than the court of public opinion because that's how the laws change whether we like to admit it or not.

[willandi]

[bigblahla]

My world is my world... my actions are my actions, my responsibilities are simple.... Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.... not religious but live by the teachings of Jesus the best I can.... I cannot change this world we live in but I can help make a difference in the lives of those I know... loving my family, my friends and offering a hand up to those in need that I meet... that is my world... and cheering on our Zags through thick and thin... IMO, this discussion does not belong here.... there are other forums on this site for this discussion... basketball board...

Just my opinion...

Go!! Zags!!!

[scrooner]

Thanks willandi. Empathy is quickly becoming a lost art.

[SorenTodd45]

Wow, it's been ages since I've been here. Anyways, I cheer for all Zags players no matter what color they are. White, Black, French, Serbian, it doesn't matter. The only colors I see are silver and blue.

[Kong-Kool-Aid]

I just can’t comprehend that there are people who don’t feel there is racism in this country and that it is a problem.

I also can’t comprehend that there are people who feel there is no lasting effect on the black community from slavery and segregation.

I also can’t comprehend how a person cannot see there is a profound distinct difference between their experience and the experience of a black person in America.

I posted quotes on this very issue that are just as pertinent today as they were when MLK said them, I urge you to educate yourself beyond your own view.

[Zagceo]

It is often noted how much this transition can be a major one for international players, but for a 17-year-old black teen to commit to a college where 71% of students and 85% of faculty are white takes genuine courage. I hope that Gonzaga has been and will continue to be a safe and welcoming home for all who have done so.

According to your numbers Gonzaga University does have a racial disparity issue especially among its faculty.

Thanks for sharing was unaware.

[zagfan24]

Some additional thoughts. To start I realized when I started this thread it could become a tinder box. I tried to keep the focus on Gonzaga basketball to some extent, but obviously knew it could quickly go in other directions. I appreciate the mods keeping the thread open. This discussion is inherently uncomfortable...and that is good. Civil discourse is always good, but that isn't akin to "all opinions should be given equal value." Racist statements, whether implicit or explicit, aren't part of constructive discourse. Nor should we be trapped by fallacy to moderation, where it is assumed that the real answers lie somewhere in the middle. While keeping the thread open means being respectful of one another, IMO it does not follow that a polite conversation is, in the real world, always the helpful direction. I don't respect those who spout racist ideology, and I won't be polite and respectful if they do so.

Wow, it's been ages since I've been here. Anyways, I cheer for all Zags players no matter what color they are. White, Black, French, Serbian, it doesn't matter. The only colors I see are silver and blue.

I get your where you are coming from as it pertains to Gonzaga basketball. But the myth of colorblindness serving as the ideal is important to dispel. Recognizing that there ARE differences in the experience of black men and women in our society is important. This includes Gonzaga basketball players. Pretending that race and culture don't exist serves only to invalidate the experiences of racial and ethnic minorities.

IMO, this discussion does not belong here.... there are other forums on this site for this discussion... basketball board...Just my opinion...

Go!! Zags!!!

I respectfully disagree. I think that, as I said in my OP, race permeates every aspect of our society and every institution within it. I do wish we could have focused mainly on the topic of our players and program, but things quickly got off track.

The name "Black lives matter" is a cloaked insult. It's meant to divide Americans. I'm not talking about the people in BLM, just the name.

Again, I respectfully disagree. Black lives matter is a response not just to the numerous deaths of black individuals that involved some scale of racial prejudice and discrimination, but to large scale societal, legal, and judicial maltreatment and indifference to those deaths. In contrast, I find the "All Lives Matter" retort obnoxious at best. I've never been at a Childhood Cancer Fundraiser and heard criticism for not raising money for other diseases. I've never been at an Autism Awareness event and been vilified for not raising awareness of other developmental disabilities.

Nebulous is a good word. I’m not singling out anyone here but it is hard for me to figure out what is being asked of me on these issues of police brutality and systemic racism issue. I feel that I worked very hard to be where I am and feel more privileged to be born in America to loving parents who stayed together and provided for my basic needs. I do not take that for granted. I also don’t take for granted the example they showed, as they both went to college and were good moral examples (in my opinion). They taught me not to be a respector of persons, and for a number of reasons. I am thankful that I was born with average to above average intelligence— although I respect anyone’s opinion to think otherwise. I was born into a situation to have a chance to succeed that many other persons don’t. I do feel privileged for so many reasons, but race is at the bottom of that list.

I appreciate you sharing those thoughts JP. Like you, I have had innumerable privileges in my life. White Privilege is a tough construct because it is so often misstated as "being privileged" which is not the same thing. I understand why people thus hear the term, and having worked hard and overcome adversity quickly dismiss the entire notion. Privilege can mean both unseen advantages that your race, or gender, bring your way. But, perhaps more importantly, privilege can mean that there are barriers that don't exist that you might never think about. I strongly recommend this article: https://www.racialequitytools.org/re...s/mcintosh.pdf

I'll end with this quote from Tom Herman, Texas FB coach, which I really appreciated. In bringing the topic back to GU Basketball, it's a notion worthy of consideration.

"We're going to pack 100,000 people into (the stadium) and millions watch on TV that are predominantly white -- not all of them certainly, but most of 'em white," Herman told the American-Statesman. "We're gonna cheer when they score touchdowns, and we're gonna hug our buddy when they get sacks or an interception. "But we gonna let them date our daughter? Are we going to hire them in a position of power in our company? That's the question I have for America. You can't have it both ways."

[Hoopaholic]

How lawful was the report that stated the area was cleared without incident but one man had tripped and fell?

Addressed that several times

IF it was intentional someone needs to be held accountable as transparency, honesty, integrity and ethics are the foundation of. Trust and thus success


However, having been in fast moving critical incidents, I could also understand how the information got transmitted and when it got to a PIO it could have been manipulated not by negligence, recklessness or intent but by simple human error (think the old tin can game we played as kids and how the statement starts and is completely different. By the time it gets to the end person)

Either way it has a negative impact to the trust piggy bank and needs to be investigated and outcomes provided for transparency sake

[tinfoilzag]

According to your numbers Gonzaga University does have a racial disparity issue especially among its faculty.

Thanks for sharing was unaware.

The percentage of those attending and staff falls in line with national and local demographics. The goal is equality of opportunity not equality of outcome.

[Hoopaholic]

Yeah true. The guy was a dumb ass for walking up to cops in riot gear. The guy tumbled pretty easily. The cops were visibly upset after they saw what happened. But it's just sort of a bummer to see the police push the guy when, all things considered, they probably didn't need to. I'm not calling for the guys badge or think he should be in trouble, but it's just discouraging for me as a lay person who wants to see the police be successful and get a better public perception after this whole thing is through.

In course of civil discussion what option would you have employed knowing that there is projectiles being thrown, group of angry people and the decision and objective was to clear the area was made:

Ignore him and continue (thus letting him in to the interior of the security zone creating a secondary risk that resources would have to deal with)

Stop and do nothing (likely unintended consequence would be advancement of the others to take similar position)

Arrest him (risk of inflaming the group even further, delays to process and the need to protect the individual you just arrested which reduces your resources available to achieve the original objective)

Continue your order to back up and when ignored push him (as per training)

Change your objective ( to gain lawful compliance with the legal order of removing selves from the area)and retreat

Those would be the option in this particular situation

[tinfoilzag]

This is a classic persuasion technique used in propaganda. Here's how it works:

Come up with an idea or opinion you want someone to adopt. For example, you want to get paid a bonus this year at work. We can call this idea the 'payload'. In order to deliver the payload in a way the reader will adopt it you put it in a list. The list should consist of 4 to 5 points. The other points should be very obviously factual (and a bit boring) and then you place your payload in with the facts. For our example, it would be worded something like this:

1. Customers are the lifeblood of this company (obvious fact)
2. Without our employees, we can't serve the customers (obvious fact)
3. Without annual bonuses, we'll lose our best employees (Payload)
4. Whether we believe we can or we can't, we're right (clever saying or quote)

You've just programmed your opinion as a fact in someone's mind! Because you paced the reader with facts, they will likely accept all items in the list as facts when it is categorized and stored in the mind. Bonus points if you can keep the same cadence in your writing and focus on loss instead of gain as fear makes humans care more about loss than gain.

Enjoy your newfound tactics is persuasion!

[zagfan24]

This is a classic persuasion technique used in propaganda. Here's how it works:

Come up with an idea or opinion you want someone to adopt. For example, you want to get paid a bonus this year at work. We can call this idea the 'payload'. In order to deliver the payload in a way the reader will adopt it you put it in a list. The list should consist of 4 to 5 points. The other points should be very obviously factual (and a bit boring) and then you place your payload in with the facts. For our example, it would be worded something like this:

1. Customers are the lifeblood of this company (obvious fact)
2. Without our employees, we can't serve the customers (obvious fact)
3. Without annual bonuses, we'll lose our best employees (Payload)
4. Whether we believe we can or we can't, we're right (clever saying or quote)

You've just programmed your opinion as a fact in someone's mind! Because you paced the reader to with facts, it will likely accept all items in the list as facts when it is categorized and stored in the mind. Bonus points if you can keep the same cadence in your writing and focus on loss instead of gain as fear makes humans care more about loss than gain.

Enjoy your newfound tactics is persuasion!

I think the point of that meme is better phrased as one statement, then. "Your experience is not everyone's experience." Because one of the biggest mistakes we ALL make is assuming that our lens and our knowledge and our worldview and our experiences offers insight into how everyone else lives.