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Thread: Race thread (will be moved on Monday night)

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    Default Race thread (will be moved on Monday night)

    These are difficult times, for almost everyone. From COVID-19 to racial disparities to political turmoil, 2020 has not exactly been a highlight. I know this is not the defunct OCC, so I want to try and stay away consciously from anything political or needlessly controversial. Mods, feel free to delete or move if you wish. I'm a white male in his mid 30's and so I'm really not the right person to write about this topic, but I found the lack of a thread notable in its omission, even on a basketball forum, given the events of the past week. So, just a few thoughts that I would like to share, trying my best to generally stick to the forum topic of Gonzaga Men's Basketball.

    Sports are often viewed as a true meritocracy. At times, this might be true. At many other times, there clearly remain stereotypes and systemic issues that still infiltrate sports at all levels. Sports also inevitably exist within the framework of a society, including both the cultural norms of each region (see: college football in the south) and the zeitgeist of each era. So, as much as many like to see sports as a distraction from "real world issues," this is really not the case for most athletes nor is it really true for most fans. You may choose to watch sports and tune out the seemingly external but intertwined factors that impact every level of competition...but in my opinion it is worth acknowledging that not all are able to do so.

    When I was a Gonzaga student, I distinctly remember hearing a man in Safeway standing in line in front of me refer to a certain player as a “thug." I wasn’t friends with said player, but I knew him well enough to know that nothing could have been further from the truth and it was eye-opening to me to realize how easily racial issues seep into things as seemingly innocuous as player evaluations. We often heard players labeled as “athletic” or “hard-nosed” based almost solely on racial stereotypes. We see comparisons to other players made based almost solely on appearance. Sports are a great way to find unity but they are just as prone to bias, prejudice, and discrimination as any other institution.

    That said, I believe that the Gonzaga men’s basketball team is a beautiful microcosm of what multiculturalism can look like at its best. The staff has brought in players from many cultures and backgrounds and integrated these young men into a successful team each and every year while also (at least from my outsider perspective) allowing individual player styles, beliefs, and values. Embracing diversity doesn't mean covering up differences, and sharing a uniform doesn't mean sharing life experiences or beliefs. Much like in life, college basketball includes both individual and collective goals, and the reality is that both must be acknowledged and advanced. It seems like, as a fan, that the Zags are able to strike this balance quite well.

    In addition, we have been fortunate to have so many young men choose to come to Spokane, which is admittedly not a city of extensive diversity. I could discuss in much more detail some of the sociological research about these types of moves, suffice to say it is not always easy or comfortable to go to a place where your racial or cultural background is minimally represented. It is assuredly a testament to the University, the coaches and staff, and the “program” as a whole; but even more so it’s worth being appreciative of the players and their families for their willingness to place their trust in the team and the community. It is often noted how much this transition can be a major one for international players, but for a 17-year-old black teen to commit to a college where 71% of students and 85% of faculty are white takes genuine courage. I hope that Gonzaga has been and will continue to be a safe and welcoming home for all who have done so.

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    Though it’s admittedly from 35,000 feet, my view is staunchly that Gonzaga’s multicultural history is nonpareil in the CBB game. It’s Few’s greatest achievement bar none and if it’s not, it should be the envy of every college president and AD throughout the country. Magnificent.



    Quote Originally Posted by zagfan24 View Post
    These are difficult times, for almost everyone. From COVID-19 to racial disparities to political turmoil, 2020 has not exactly been a highlight. I know this is not the defunct OCC, so I want to try and stay away consciously from anything political or needlessly controversial. Mods, feel free to delete or move if you wish. I'm a white male in his mid 30's and so I'm really not the right person to write about this topic, but I found the lack of a thread notable in its omission, even on a basketball forum, given the events of the past week. So, just a few thoughts that I would like to share, trying my best to generally stick to the forum topic of Gonzaga Men's Basketball.

    Sports are often viewed as a true meritocracy. At times, this might be true. At many other times, there clearly remain stereotypes and systemic issues that still infiltrate sports at all levels. Sports also inevitably exist within the framework of a society, including both the cultural norms of each region (see: college football in the south) and the zeitgeist of each era. So, as much as many like to see sports as a distraction from "real world issues," this is really not the case for most athletes nor is it really true for most fans. You may choose to watch sports and tune out the seemingly external but intertwined factors that impact every level of competition...but in my opinion it is worth acknowledging that not all are able to do so.

    When I was a Gonzaga student, I distinctly remember hearing a man in Safeway standing in line in front of me refer to a certain player as a “thug." I wasn’t friends with said player, but I knew him well enough to know that nothing could have been further from the truth and it was eye-opening to me to realize how easily racial issues seep into things as seemingly innocuous as player evaluations. We often heard players labeled as “athletic” or “hard-nosed” based almost solely on racial stereotypes. We see comparisons to other players made based almost solely on appearance. Sports are a great way to find unity but they are just as prone to bias, prejudice, and discrimination as any other institution.

    That said, I believe that the Gonzaga men’s basketball team is a beautiful microcosm of what multiculturalism can look like at its best. The staff has brought in players from many cultures and backgrounds and integrated these young men into a successful team each and every year while also (at least from my outsider perspective) allowing individual player styles, beliefs, and values. Embracing diversity doesn't mean covering up differences, and sharing a uniform doesn't mean sharing life experiences or beliefs. Much like in life, college basketball includes both individual and collective goals, and the reality is that both must be acknowledged and advanced. It seems like, as a fan, that the Zags are able to strike this balance quite well.

    In addition, we have been fortunate to have so many young men choose to come to Spokane, which is admittedly not a city of extensive diversity. I could discuss in much more detail some of the sociological research about these types of moves, suffice to say it is not always easy or comfortable to go to a place where your racial or cultural background is minimally represented. It is assuredly a testament to the University, the coaches and staff, and the “program” as a whole; but even more so it’s worth being appreciative of the players and their families for their willingness to place their trust in the team and the community. It is often noted how much this transition can be a major one for international players, but for a 17-year-old black teen to commit to a college where 71% of students and 85% of faculty are white takes genuine courage. I hope that Gonzaga has been and will continue to be a safe and welcoming home for all who have done so.

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    Wow, Zagfan24. That's a nice piece of writing. Thanks.

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    Zagfan24 I truly appreciate this and thank you for your thoughts. I will refrain from posting some of the things that I saw as a student as it was more than a few years ago now, as much as I would like to say much has changed, I am sure much has not. Thank you again.

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    That was a thoughtful post. Thank you.

    I am not black, but as the first of my family born in the US who came from Iran, I am darker than many. After two years living in Spokane, the only racism I experienced was someone told me to "park like a white man." In his defense, I was driving a 3/4 Cummins with a hitch poking its head into the drive. I thought I made out pretty well being so close to the Idaho panhandle. That said, I don't have the benefit of seeing life in Spokane, or anywhere in the US through the lens of a black person, or another immediately-obvious minority. It can be hard to remember to color our opinion with only our own experiences, and zagfan24 got a brief window into another life, much less living that life everyday. Without telling people what to believe, I think the OP did a good job encouraging us to form our beliefs using a real crack at empathy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reborn View Post
    Go Zags!!!

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    I'm really having trouble biting my tongue over the lip service that is essentially excusing the rioting and looting that is occurring. Those cops whose dereliction of duty cost George his life should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. I'm fine with the protesting, as long as it remains peaceful. You lose me when lawyers in NY start throwing firebombs into police cars, or when a 190 unit affordable housing project is burned to the ground in Minneapolis.

    For 72 years now, the United States Military has been desegregated, and is the best example of what our country should aspire to when it comes to race relations. From the minute I went on active duty, I was a minority. At that time Air Defense Artillery was about 1/3 white, 1/3 black, and 1/3 Hispanic. My best Group Commander was a black man, Johnie Forte Jr., who would achieve the rank of Brigadier General. That man stood up for me when my white Battery Commander and white Battalion Commander were trying to screw me over.

    I served with black NCOs and enlisted men, and we were a team. One of my favorite positions was as a Vulcan Platoon Leader. My platoon sergeant was black, and 3 of my 4 squad leaders were AJ's, "acting jacks", E4s in E6 slots. We came together, and were the only platoon (of 4) to pass a battery level tactical evaluation.

    As a Battery Commander at Fort Bliss, my First Sergeant and Training NCO were black, and our 300 man battery was racially diverse. I'll never forget the day my 1st Sergeant said "there's times I'm scared of you." LOL, this guy was Sergeant Rock! He told me when I was angry, my eyes looked like a rattlesnake's just before it strikes.

    I am extremely disappointed in the lack of leadership and courage displayed by the Governor of Minnesota. The man served in the Minnesota Guard for 24 years, and reached the rank of Sergeant Major. In the first few days of "protesting", he didn't raise a finger when a Minneapolis police station was destroyed by rioters.

    I'm all for teaching American history, warts and all. We have plenty of black marks, from slavery to broken treaties with Native Americans, to putting citizens of Japanese descent into concentration camps during WWII. Along the way, Americans of all colors, creeds, and faiths have come together to perform great deeds throughout the world. For all of our faults, no country has done more to right its wrongs than the United States.

    Rant off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasZagFan View Post
    I'm really having trouble biting my tongue over the lip service that is essentially excusing the rioting and looting that is occurring. Those cops whose dereliction of duty cost George his life should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. I'm fine with the protesting, as long as it remains peaceful. You lose me when lawyers in NY start throwing firebombs into police cars, or when a 190 unit affordable housing project is burned to the ground in Minneapolis.

    For 72 years now, the United States Military has been desegregated, and is the best example of what our country should aspire to when it comes to race relations. From the minute I went on active duty, I was a minority. At that time Air Defense Artillery was about 1/3 white, 1/3 black, and 1/3 Hispanic. My best Group Commander was a black man, Johnie Forte Jr., who would achieve the rank of Brigadier General. That man stood up for me when my white Battery Commander and white Battalion Commander were trying to screw me over.

    I served with black NCOs and enlisted men, and we were a team. One of my favorite positions was as a Vulcan Platoon Leader. My platoon sergeant was black, and 3 of my 4 squad leaders were AJ's, "acting jacks", E4s in E6 slots. We came together, and were the only platoon (of 4) to pass a battery level tactical evaluation.

    As a Battery Commander at Fort Bliss, my First Sergeant and Training NCO were black, and our 300 man battery was racially diverse. I'll never forget the day my 1st Sergeant said "there's times I'm scared of you." LOL, this guy was Sergeant Rock! He told me when I was angry, my eyes looked like a rattlesnake's just before it strikes.

    I am extremely disappointed in the lack of leadership and courage displayed by the Governor of Minnesota. The man served in the Minnesota Guard for 24 years, and reached the rank of Sergeant Major. In the first few days of "protesting", he didn't raise a finger when a Minneapolis police station was destroyed by rioters.

    I'm all for teaching American history, warts and all. We have plenty of black marks, from slavery to broken treaties with Native Americans, to putting citizens of Japanese descent into concentration camps during WWII. Along the way, Americans of all colors, creeds, and faiths have come together to perform great deeds throughout the world. For all of our faults, no country has done more to right its wrongs than the United States.

    Rant off.
    Thank you for sharing your experience. I know that none of us want to see our communities destroyed or deteriorated. The sad reality is that there are some people who only want to agitate others through looting and property damage. This is unfortunate and should be condemned, but we should not let it taint our view of this entire movement. The vast majority of the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people who protested yesterday in all 50 states did so peacefully. People are genuinely upset and want change through peaceful methods because they are hurt themselves or they empathize with the pain of others. As you beautifully pointed out in your example with the armed forces, people of all races can coexist peacefully and without bigotry. We know that it is possible, so the world wants to see it in action. There are a small groups that agitate because they want to see the world divided, but this movement is philosophically about bringing people together because we are stronger that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zag1203 View Post
    Thank you for sharing your experience. I know that none of us want to see our communities destroyed or deteriorated. The sad reality is that there are some people who only want to agitate others through looting and property damage. This is unfortunate and should be condemned, but we should not let it taint our view of this entire movement. The vast majority of the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people who protested yesterday in all 50 states did so peacefully. People are genuinely upset and want change through peaceful methods because they are hurt themselves or they empathize with the pain of others. As you beautifully pointed out in your example with the armed forces, people of all races can coexist peacefully and without bigotry. We know that it is possible, so the world wants to see it in action. There are a small groups that agitate because they want to see the world divided, but this movement is philosophically about bringing people together because we are stronger that way.
    Thanks...the old man who shouts "get off my lawn" is strong with me too often. I never realized that retirement could be so difficult, searching for purpose, after 30+ years of raising kids, and working in different jobs, some good, some bad. Looking back on it, I can't honestly say that my civilian years were more rewarding than my military service, though I did have a few jobs that came close. My current role, and most important, is being Big D's Opa, with a granddaughter arriving in a few weeks. The highlight of my day today was Big D sending me a couple of really cute Imessages. Nice to know he's thinking of me.

    Ok, now get off my lawn!

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    Just catching up. Haven't seen this elsewhere & think it may fit here. Meehan interviewing Sam Dower. Please read.


    https://www.spokesman.com/stories/20...oins-hometown/


    Thanks 24.
    This post is for March Madness seeding purposes only.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sittingon50 View Post
    Just catching up. Haven't seen this elsewhere & think it may fit here. Meehan interviewing Sam Dower. Please read.


    https://www.spokesman.com/stories/20...oins-hometown/


    Thanks 24.
    Sam was a great Zag, stories like these are heart breaking.

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    I'm really having trouble biting my tongue over the lip service that is essentially excusing the murder of unarmed black males while in police custody. It takes days to get arrests of these uniformed bullies and typically only after hell has been raised on the street.

    If you are freaking out over rioting, then perhaps you should start freaking out over the blatant injustice that starts it. For those young black males that feel like they are living a "Groundhog day" in Hell, perhaps they believe the only remaining action left in their political arsenal is to implement an agenda called "No justice, no peace"

    I'm not an anarchist. I don't condone looting and destruction. I do believe, however, if one is more inclined to complain about looting than the institutionalized murder that sparked it, then it is rather revealing that for such individuals, no long term solution can even be conceived. And it is rather simple solution indeed. Just recruit the type of people into law enforcement that don't get their kicks from using excessive force against unarmed, handcuffed black men. The first time it happens for any given individual, it should raise red flags requiring immediate intervention and not be cumulatively hidden away in non transparent reports.

    What should be setting off alarm bells is that this police culture can only be fixed with internal peer pressure and that peer pressure isn't happening at a level to rectify the issue. Result? There are wide swaths of young folks that sincerely believe that "All Cops are Bad". The last thing that the "law and order" crowd needs is for the next generation to believes this. That is unless you embrace a totalitarian state and believe police repression is a viable policy.

    Edited for additional comment:

    For those that believe this "ACAB" issue is a fleeting issue that will quickly dissipate when the protests eventually fade, consider this: Historically, jurors have been very lenient on police officers in court. Especially if the City infrastructure and Police Department intervene on that officer's behalf. The ACAB folks will probably be considered hostile jurors by the attorneys for the officer's defense. In other words, the risk for unfriendly jurors goes way up with the ACAB issue.
    Last edited by MickMick; 06-04-2020 at 03:03 PM.
    I miss Mike Hart

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    “Stole the this concept from someone else, but I’ll tweak it and put my 2 cents on top of it....

    You see Billy badass Marine right here? With his big ass dip in his lip, 50lbs of bull#### on, a rifle, and a face that screams “I’m tired, I’m dirty, and I’m over this ####”?

    Why is it this plowhorse of a Marine can detain someone in a combat zone without beating him, or killing him?
    Why is it that this pissed off, overworked, sleep deprived, likely stressed and hungry grunt can detain someone due course of a war, and not mistreat, abuse, maim, wound, or kill them?
    I’ll tell you why.
    Accountability.

    How many stories have you heard of a soldier or Marine sent to prison for shooting the wrong person in a combat zone?
    Why is it that every time a soldier or Marine discharges their weapon in a COMBAT ZONE a 15-6 investigation is launched, sworn statements are written and reviewed, and that soldier or Marines entire future is on the line?
    Every Combat Soldier, and Marine, knows that if they don’t do the right thing (and sometimes even if they do) they’re facing hefty repercussions.

    On the flip side of that, how many times has a police officer drew their weapon on someone for no reason? Because they’re scared? With zero consequence?
    How many times has a police officer shot and killed someone when it was wholly unnecessary and could have been avoided?
    And how many times have those things been swept under the rug, brushed aside, covered up, and nothing happened?

    WHY do we have soldiers and marines, overseas, in combat zones, shackled with overly strict ROE and expected to use discretion and act as police? Soldiers and Marines who have spent their time and efforts training learning how to KILL.....
    And then we hammer their ass when they do?
    Yet, we have police officers and deputies here in the US, who have spent their time and efforts learning how to avoid killing, how to diffuse situations, and how to detain people...
    That seem to think they’re soldiers instead of police...
    And every time they KILL someone, excuses are made and punishments are avoided???

    Can anyone answer that question for me?
    And don’t come at me with “it’s a stressful job being a cop, you don’t understand”
    You know what’s more stressful than being a cop?
    Being a 19yr old kid, in a country you were sent to, with people actively trying to kill you, and having to second guess and stress and worry about shooting back and going to prison.

    Something about all of this is terribly terribly wrong.
    We expect our military members to act like police... Yet we make excuses for and cover for our police acting like they’re soldiers in an occupying army in a foreign country, here at home.”

    This is a situation that has been building since the Blacks were 'emancipated'. Perhaps one of the worst atrocities perpetrated was this. The Tulsa massacre. Burning down blocks of Black business and housing, killing many, because after a Black elevator operator was arrested for allegedly assaulting a white woman, the police engaged a lynch mob, killing several of those ready to lynch the man.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_...3GGicMz_uKw8dg

    A much more recent event is a perversion to a law from the 1870's, designed to allow people of all color to sue LEO that went overboard. It has been changed in the last 20-30 years, so even getting them into a court room has proved almost impossible.
    https://theappeal.org/qualified-immu...OylCk.facebook
    It's not funny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasZagFan View Post
    I'm really having trouble biting my tongue over the lip service that is essentially excusing the rioting and looting that is occurring. Those cops whose dereliction of duty cost George his life should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. I'm fine with the protesting, as long as it remains peaceful. You lose me when lawyers in NY start throwing firebombs into police cars, or when a 190 unit affordable housing project is burned to the ground in Minneapolis.

    For 72 years now, the United States Military has been desegregated, and is the best example of what our country should aspire to when it comes to race relations. From the minute I went on active duty, I was a minority. At that time Air Defense Artillery was about 1/3 white, 1/3 black, and 1/3 Hispanic. My best Group Commander was a black man, Johnie Forte Jr., who would achieve the rank of Brigadier General. That man stood up for me when my white Battery Commander and white Battalion Commander were trying to screw me over.

    I served with black NCOs and enlisted men, and we were a team. One of my favorite positions was as a Vulcan Platoon Leader. My platoon sergeant was black, and 3 of my 4 squad leaders were AJ's, "acting jacks", E4s in E6 slots. We came together, and were the only platoon (of 4) to pass a battery level tactical evaluation.

    As a Battery Commander at Fort Bliss, my First Sergeant and Training NCO were black, and our 300 man battery was racially diverse. I'll never forget the day my 1st Sergeant said "there's times I'm scared of you." LOL, this guy was Sergeant Rock! He told me when I was angry, my eyes looked like a rattlesnake's just before it strikes.

    I am extremely disappointed in the lack of leadership and courage displayed by the Governor of Minnesota. The man served in the Minnesota Guard for 24 years, and reached the rank of Sergeant Major. In the first few days of "protesting", he didn't raise a finger when a Minneapolis police station was destroyed by rioters.

    I'm all for teaching American history, warts and all. We have plenty of black marks, from slavery to broken treaties with Native Americans, to putting citizens of Japanese descent into concentration camps during WWII. Along the way, Americans of all colors, creeds, and faiths have come together to perform great deeds throughout the world. For all of our faults, no country has done more to right its wrongs than the United States.

    Rant off.
    Thanks TexasZagFan.

    Here in Spokane as in most of the protests around the country, the vast majority of protestors are peaceful protestors and it is just a very small percentage of agitators who insist on trying to incite the riots, vandalize and loot.

    Please keep in mind that when evaluating the police force. The percentage of officers who are murders, bad apples, power hungry thugs is a small percentage of the overall police force. Do not paint the entire police force nationwide over the actions of a relatively small percentage. The police officers have a very difficult job to do with an increasing defiant population. Try not to paint the entire profession with that wide paint brush because of the actions of a few.

    We are no where we need to be, but just this week, the murder and his 3 henchman have been arrested and charged (in less than a week - sorry if that is not fast enough for some) and the murder's initial charge was upgraded. When the Louisville police did not turn on their body camera's the police chief was fired within a couple of days. We are dragging the police departments, police unions, prosecutor's office and our cities into the 21st century, slowly and certainly not fast enough, but there is movement.

    Let's not get distracted by the noise around us. Focus on the task and do not get deterred from our mutual goals.

    ZagDad

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagDad84 View Post
    Thanks TexasZagFan.

    Here in Spokane as in most of the protests around the country, the vast majority of protestors are peaceful protestors and it is just a very small percentage of agitators who insist on trying to incite the riots, vandalize and loot.

    Please keep in mind that when evaluating the police force. The percentage of officers who are murders, bad apples, power hungry thugs is a small percentage of the overall police force. Do not paint the entire police force nationwide over the actions of a relatively small percentage. The police officers have a very difficult job to do with an increasing defiant population. Try not to paint the entire profession with that wide paint brush because of the actions of a few.

    We are no where we need to be, but just this week, the murder and his 3 henchman have been arrested and charged (in less than a week - sorry if that is not fast enough for some) and the murder's initial charge was upgraded. When the Louisville police did not turn on their body camera's the police chief was fired within a couple of days. We are dragging the police departments, police unions, prosecutor's office and our cities into the 21st century, slowly and certainly not fast enough, but there is movement.

    Let's not get distracted by the noise around us. Focus on the task and do not get deterred from our mutual goals.

    ZagDad
    It isn't ALL the police, but every time one sees another committing the crime of going too far, and doesn't stop it, it continues. Every time one hears a racist joke, hears another cop use the 'N' word, hears another cop use language that denigrates minorities, and doesn't speak out to stop it, it will be a problem.
    The police Unions, the Mayors and the 'thin blue line' are all in part to blame. When the police themselves decide to clean out the riff raff, it will be a start. As long as the everyday cop stays silent in the face of racism and brutality, it will be an ongoing problem.
    It's not funny.

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    Related I believe: Few endorses Election Day be a day off.


    https://www.espn.com/mens-college-ba...aches-join-him
    This post is for March Madness seeding purposes only.

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    willandi,

    How many police officers are there in the U.S? In 2018, there were 686,665 full-time law enforcement officers employed in the United States.

    How many interactions are there between the police and the public?

    The portion of U.S. residents age 16 or older who had contact with the police in the preceding 12 months (2015) was 53.5 million. That is the number of people, the actual number of interactions, assuming at least some of the people had multiple interactions during the year, would likely be considerably higher.

    Here is some additional information for you from Bureau of Justice published in October, 2018 for the calendar year 2015

    Police contact by Demographic Characteristics:
    Whites (23%) were more likely than blacks (20%) or Hispanics (17%) to have contact with police. Police were equally likely to initiate contact with blacks and whites (11% each) but were less likely to initiate contact with Hispanics (9%). Also, police were more likely to initiate contact with males (12%) than with females (9%), while females (11%) were more likely to initiate contact with police than males (10%).

    Police-initiated contact:
    Of the 223.3 million U.S. drivers, 8.6% experienced a stop as the driver of a motor vehicle. A greater percentage of stopped drivers were male (10.2%) than female (7.0%). Blacks (9.8%) were more likely than whites (8.6%) and Hispanics (7.6%) to be the driver in a traffic stop. Overall, 1.0% of persons experienced one or more street stops while in a public place or parked vehicle. A higher percentage of blacks (1.5%) experienced street stops than whites (0.9%) and Hispanics (0.9%).

    Residents’ perceptions of police behavior:
    The vast majority (95%) of drivers who experienced a traffic stop indicated that police gave a reason for the stop. The primary reason police gave for pulling over a driver was speeding (41%). Most drivers stopped for speeding said the stop was legitimate (91%) and that police behaved properly (95%). In comparison, 60% of residents who were stopped by police in a street stop thought the reason was legitimate, and 81% believed police behaved properly.

    Non-fatal Threat or Use of Force by Police:
    Two percent of U.S. residents who had contact with police experienced threats or use of force. Among those whose most recent contact was police-initiated, blacks (5.2%) and Hispanics (5.1%) were more likely than whites (2.4%), and males (4.4%) were more likely than females (1.8%), to experience the threat or use of physical force by police.

    As of Dec. 31, statistics from the Officer Down Memorial Page, which tracks the deaths of officers in the U.S. and its territories, indicate that 131 police officers have died in 2019, it is not only a one-way street.

    Willandi, not disagreeing with you at all. We have a long way to go and yes it is not just the police that committing the atrocities that need to be removed, discipline or re-trained.

    Just asking that when you take the George Floyd atrocity and others like it out of the millions of police actions that occur every year, it is an extremely small percentage of the police-public interactions. The hundreds of thousands of law-abiding policemen who daily carry out their duties do not need to be placed in the same basket as the worthless cops who break their trust with the public.

    Evan one unnecessary fatality at the hands of the police is unacceptable, but we also have to recognize the other side of the coin as well.

    ZagDad
    Last edited by ZagDad84; 06-03-2020 at 09:33 PM. Reason: Cut and Paste went Crazy

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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasZagFan View Post
    I'm really having trouble biting my tongue over the lip service that is essentially excusing the rioting and looting that is occurring. ... From the minute I went on active duty, I was a minority. At that time Air Defense Artillery was about 1/3 white, 1/3 black, and 1/3 Hispanic. My best Group Commander was a black man, Johnie Forte Jr., who would achieve the rank of Brigadier General. ... I am extremely disappointed in the lack of leadership and courage displayed by the Governor of Minnesota.
    Others have addressed the serious mistake that comes from confusing literally hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of peaceful protesters with a comparatively miniscule group of provocateurs who choose the demonstrations as an opportunity to destroy or steal property. As, like me, you appear to be a retired military man with concerns about the absence of leadership and courage in high places these days, I thought you might appreciate the thoughts published just today by retired four-star U.S. Marine Corps General Mattis, who served as President Donald Trump’s 26th Secretary of Defense from 2017 to 2018. General Mattis knows quite a bit about this topic, and he admits to being "angry and appalled" at "this week’s unfolding events":

    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/03/read...-protests.html
    SLOZag
    "Kids come here to better their own lives, not ours. If you take a player’s failures as a personal affront…. check yourself." - Chick-Stratino'sUrDaddy

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    What’s always puzzled me is how such a high percent of mass killers — in schools, offices, theaters, worship places — are so easily arrested and taken in without much apparent physical harm. True, many do off themselves, thank god, and many are mowed down, same sentiment. But why are even a handful taken in after a meek surrender and seem largely unarmed. Hmmm, maybe there’s an answer in the general racial profile of these monsters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagDad84 View Post
    willandi,

    How many police officers are there in the U.S? In 2018, there were 686,665 full-time law enforcement officers employed in the United States.

    How many interactions are there between the police and the public?

    The portion of U.S. residents age 16 or older who had contact with the police in the preceding 12 months (2015) was 53.5 million. That is the number of people, the actual number of interactions, assuming at least some of the people had multiple interactions during the year, would likely be considerably higher.

    Here is some additional information for you from Bureau of Justice published in October, 2018 for the calendar year 2015

    Police contact by Demographic Characteristics:
    Whites (23%) were more likely than blacks (20%) or Hispanics (17%) to have contact with police. Police were equally likely to initiate contact with blacks and whites (11% each) but were less likely to initiate contact with Hispanics (9%). Also, police were more likely to initiate contact with males (12%) than with females (9%), while females (11%) were more likely to initiate contact with police than males (10%).

    Police-initiated contact:
    Of the 223.3 million U.S. drivers, 8.6% experienced a stop as the driver of a motor vehicle. A greater percentage of stopped drivers were male (10.2%) than female (7.0%). Blacks (9.8%) were more likely than whites (8.6%) and Hispanics (7.6%) to be the driver in a traffic stop. Overall, 1.0% of persons experienced one or more street stops while in a public place or parked vehicle. A higher percentage of blacks (1.5%) experienced street stops than whites (0.9%) and Hispanics (0.9%).

    Residents’ perceptions of police behavior:
    The vast majority (95%) of drivers who experienced a traffic stop indicated that police gave a reason for the stop. The primary reason police gave for pulling over a driver was speeding (41%). Most drivers stopped for speeding said the stop was legitimate (91%) and that police behaved properly (95%). In comparison, 60% of residents who were stopped by police in a street stop thought the reason was legitimate, and 81% believed police behaved properly.

    Non-fatal Threat or Use of Force by Police:
    Two percent of U.S. residents who had contact with police experienced threats or use of force. Among those whose most recent contact was police-initiated, blacks (5.2%) and Hispanics (5.1%) were more likely than whites (2.4%), and males (4.4%) were more likely than females (1.8%), to experience the threat or use of physical force by police.

    As of Dec. 31, statistics from the Officer Down Memorial Page, which tracks the deaths of officers in the U.S. and its territories, indicate that 131 police officers have died in 2019, it is not only a one-way street.

    Willandi, not disagreeing with you at all. We have a long way to go and yes it is not just the police that committing the atrocities that need to be removed, discipline or re-trained.

    Just asking that when you take the George Floyd atrocity and others like it out of the millions of police actions that occur every year, it is an extremely small percentage of the police-public interactions. The hundreds of thousands of law-abiding policemen who daily carry out their duties do not need to be placed in the same basket as the worthless cops who break their trust with the public.

    Evan one unnecessary fatality at the hands of the police is unacceptable, but we also have to recognize the other side of the coin as well.

    ZagDad
    It is interesting that you didn't actually respond to any of what I posted, about how it is possible to hold soldiers in combat zones accountable, but not Police. About the atrocities of the Tulsa Massacre and on going discrimination an violence used against People of Color. Or about the preversion of law that is qualified immunity.

    You have offered up statistics that show the amount of contact, the number of people and, it seems to me, it is part of the same rationalization, the same justifications and excuses that are given, and used, to allow a pass to LEO.

    I'm not saying you are wrong or that you are racist. I am saying that those are the same excuses used to allow the police to kill people.

    According to government statistics in 2019, 235 black people were shot to death by police as opposed to 370 white, and 158 hispanics. There are 241 cases where the person's race is unknown. The reason for the fatal shooting or whether it was justifiable is not available in this study. It also should be noted that African Americans make up about 13% of the U.S. population according to the 2016 census, meaning the percentage of blacks and hispanics killed by police is very high, based on per capita.

    72% of Americans are white.


    https://wibx950.com/how-many-people-...led-by-police/

    How about we de-militarize our police forces. Take away all the heavy riot gear, the weapons of war designed to keep them safe, but at the expense of those that they are supposed to be protecting and serving?
    It's not funny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    What’s always puzzled me is how such a high percent of mass killers — in schools, offices, theaters, worship places — are so easily arrested and taken in without much apparent physical harm. True, many do off themselves, thank god, and many are mowed down, same sentiment. But why are even a handful taken in after a meek surrender and seem largely unarmed. Hmmm, maybe there’s an answer in the general racial profile of these monsters.
    Agreed. That is a huge picture of the problem.

    'FBI warned of white supremacists in law enforcement 10 years ago. Has anything changed

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/...1CoEbqnVQbSBHc
    It's not funny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willandi View Post
    According to government statistics in 2019, 235 black people were shot to death by police as opposed to 370 white, and 158 hispanics. There are 241 cases where the person's race is unknown. The reason for the fatal shooting or whether it was justifiable is not available in this study. It also should be noted that African Americans make up about 13% of the U.S. population according to the 2016 census, meaning the percentage of blacks and hispanics killed by police is very high, based on per capita.
    That's some really overly simplistic thinking about proportionality or disproportionality. Women are under-arrested per-capita, but we don't think police are uniformly sexist against men. We don't get worried that elderly americans, or Asian Americans, or Amish/mennonite/devout Muslim or orthodox Jewish americans are all arrested at levels FAR BELOW their raw per-capita numbers in the country. We don't accuse or assume that the police have massive hidden pro-women or pro-elderly or pro-Asian or Pro-religion biases to explain why so few people from those groups are arrested, assaulted by, or killed by police. We understand that it's silly to expect police interactions and police violence to be distributed equally (what current social justice proponents would call "equity") across a society with massively unequal crime rates.

    If you compare the numbers of people from "x" group who are killed by police annually to the number of annual violent crimes, or arrests for violent crimes, or simply number of murders and assaults committed each year by people from "X" group, you find an extremely high correlation and close proportionality.

    People over age 60 or women or Asian-Americans aren't committing murders, aren't encountering police in violent situations, and aren't getting arrested or killed. People from other groups (and basically just males from age 15-40 without stable employment or families) are doing all of those bad things, and are getting arrested and killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by willandi View Post

    72% of Americans are white.
    The 72% total groups hispanics with whites. I personally think all these categories are a stupid antiquated dead-end, but "white" americans make up 60% of the country, not 72%.

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    Let me preface by saying that we ought to do a better job of listening to lived experiences. Perception or reality, there is a lot of pain. As a majority race, whites need to recognize that history has not been kind to certain races. We bear that responsibility. It’s our turn and inherent obligation to do better in all areas. Again, it starts with listening.

    As for your comment, Willandi, it’s not just looting and destruction. Officers were shot, a couple killed. Is that representative of most of the protesters? Absolutely not, nor are the brutal actions of certain cops representative of most cops. Rationalizations are unhelpful.

    Obama actually made a nice statement regarding the state of affairs on this matter.

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    These protests aren't just about this one incident, they are the result of systematic racism that continues to exist in society. It's time to end that racism, it's time for truth and reconciliation and for the United States to take a hard look of where it currently stands, how it got there, and how it can move forward acknowledging the past and changing to fix these wrongs in the future.

    As Dr. King said... "We cannot have an enlightened democracy with one great group living in ignorance."

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    Stupid Drew Brees stepped right into the trap, conflating Kap with disrespecting the flag. Was never that. Anthem was chosen as flashpoint for reasonable protest. Kap et al could have articulated better as well. NFL wraps itself in flag for monetary reasons and for typical fans. Sad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    Stupid Drew Brees stepped right into the trap, conflating Kap with disrespecting the flag. Was never that. Anthem was chosen as flashpoint for reasonable protest. Kap et al could have articulated better as well. NFL wraps itself in flag for monetary reasons and for typical fans. Sad.
    It may still be due to conflation but, if so, the debate was about disrespecting the flag very early on. This error was never corrected. For many people on the outside this was about disrespecting the flag, because his protest happened during the anthem, and it seems revisionist to suggest it was never about that. I don’t think his protest would have been offensive to so many if it happened at another time during pregame (any time but the anthem, essentially). This may be another example of persons talking past each other, or worse— people trying to take control of the narrative with an alternate reality.

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