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Thread: Race thread (will be moved on Monday night)

  1. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagsObserver View Post
    Where I live, the poorer the district, more money is allocated. Teacher to student ratio is greater and more aids and support staff. Maybe it’s a Washington state thing. This isn’t Seattle where the parents can subsidize the DistrIct like Mercer Island. It’s more common to have more money allocated to lower income Districts, however, save for the few affluent Districts (again, like a Mercer Island). Money spent on the District is actually a poor predictor of success. Two parent households and full-time occupation are much better predictors.
    My cousin teaches in the Riverside school district, on highway 2 NE out of Spokane.
    She frequently complains about lack of computers for students, especially when they go home, Just because some schools themselves get more aid because of being poor, doesn't mean that the students automatically have better access to learning. Doing homework online, when the libraries are closed and the best computer you have (if you even have one) is a dinosaur is not easy or equal.
    It's not funny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willandi View Post
    My cousin teaches in the Riverside school district, on highway 2 NE out of Spokane.
    She frequently complains about lack of computers for students, especially when they go home, Just because some schools themselves get more aid because of being poor, doesn't mean that the students automatically have better access to learning. Doing homework online, when the libraries are closed and the best computer you have (if you even have one) is a dinosaur is not easy or equal.
    Yet again, you’ve shifted the target. I wasn’t speaking to whether the kids might have other handicaps. I said funding is better, more teachers, more aids, more support staff, more tutoring, including in-home care and more and better nutritional access that’s either free or reduced.

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    But as far as your point, I did not have a computer up through almost all of high school. Just about everybody else did, and most teachers required type-written documents. There are programs today where you can get a loanEd computer through the school, and in almost all cases those requests are met. That didn’t exist when I was in school.

    The district just next to ours had a laptop gifted to every student given the lower income status, Microsoft subsidized.

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    That’s not necessarily true Zagobserver. I have been teaching in WA for 21 years. The big changes in the state funding model shifted the main burden of funding education back onto the State and imposed limits on how much can be raised locally (which in theory is good since the old funding model allowed for a much larger gap between poor and rich districts, but it hasn’t completely reduced that disparity).

    In the new funding model the state has outlined exactly what constitutes basic education, which still leaves significant gaps in certain areas which still impacts districts differently. In the past model, districts could use local funding accessed through levies that were tied to property values. Districts can still do that, but the state imposed a limit of $2.50 per $1,000 of assessed value and at the same time limited the amount of LEA funds that helped to equalize this loss of income. In short, the current funding model, while it has improved education funding it still falls way short of what’s needed to provide an equal basic education in each district. If you asked any district superintendent, they would probably tell you that districts are going to be in a world of hurt over the next few years as the limitations of the funding model will cause budget shortfalls and cuts to spending and staffing. Case in point (I work in NW Washington), Ferndale School District is implementing draconian cuts for at least the next two years, including cutting some athletic programs and implementing pay to play. They were going to completely cut athletics but saw a huge increase in requests for students to leave the district, so they backed off. It doesn’t help that they failed their levy this winter but they were still facing a multi million $ shortfall. This is going to play out across the state over the next few years in other districts, and when the budget cuts come it falls disproportionately on services most needed for at risk students and populations. As an example, Ferndale reduced elementary counseling services by 50% and HS counselors by 25%.

    Two quick examples of inequities....technology access and special education funding. The state will provide a certain amount of funding for technology access and instruction. You highlight a great example of this as the district next to you has a partnership to provide a low income student with a laptop. Most districts don’t have access to that type of partnership. There are districts that do provide 1:1 laptops to students, but that is predominantly levy funded or contingent on public/private partnerships.

    Another example is funding for special education. With federal and state limits, districts do not get additional funding for special education services if the number of students on IEP’s exceeds 13.5% of the student population. Any excess the district is required to fund. As you can imagine, and has been discussed, there are wide discrepancies in the demographics of districts with poorer districts having greater needs for special education services.

    I don’t want to turn this thread into an argument about funding education, but I did want to highlight that our funding model in WA still falls way short of meeting the needs of all students, especially those districts more heavily impacted by poverty. The comment was previously made that we have poured more money into education in WA, but that argument misses the point that a huge piece missing is the support students need besides teachers and textbooks. If students basic needs for safety, security, and health are not met it doesn’t matter how much we pour into the classroom. There’s tons of research out there regarding the impact of Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACES) and chronic trauma on brain development and education that shows a lasting individual and societal impact. To bring it full circle, the systemic funding disparities and lack of support services needed to mitigate trauma and ACES impact in greater numbers black and POC communities. Until we address and fix those systemic issues regarding education funding and healthcare/mental health access I’m not sure how much we can move the needle in shrinking these gaps.

    Finally( sorry for the long post), a huge thank you to this board for providing an avenue for such an enlightening discussion. It is great to see civility and thoughtful expression around this important issue. My hope is as a society we can tackle these systemic inequities and help heal our country.

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    the school funding is more than adequate but its used unwisely....handing out on average 16%pay increases along with dramatically increasing pension debt for the teachers and then wondering how you're going to pay for the disabled or the disadvantage is very telling where one's priorities are...of course, the disabled and the disadvantaged can't demand the attention that a union does....so no, its not a school funding issue...its how they divvy it up and there's winners, (teachers) and losers (disabled, disadvantaged,tax payers)

    but I expect they won't seriously start looking a money issues until they figure they can't support sports team and then the light switch will go on...

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    Quote Originally Posted by sylean View Post
    the school funding is more than adequate but its used unwisely....handing out on average 16%pay increases along with dramatically increasing pension debt for the teachers and then wondering how you're going to pay for the disabled or the disadvantage is very telling where one's priorities are...of course, the disabled and the disadvantaged can't demand the attention that a union does....so no, its not a school funding issue...its how they divvy it up and there's winners, (teachers) and losers (disabled, disadvantaged,tax payers)

    but I expect they won't seriously start looking a money issues until they figure they can't support sports team and then the light switch will go on...
    You forgot to include the unions are evil....lol. Wholeheartedly disagree with you. I don't want to totally derail this thread, but I need to dispute your premise that greedy (my word....as often used to counter when teachers ask for a pay raise) teachers are the reason why funding is inadequate in the state. A few facts for you regarding teacher pay.

    In 2000-01 school year the base salary for a teacher was $46,053 (adjusted to constant 2016-17 dollars =$62,044)
    In 2016-17 school year, the base salary for a teacher was $58,870 (adjusted to constant 2016-17 dollars = $58,870)

    Further, the State of Washington passed Initiative 732 in 2000, which would give teachers a COLA each year. The State legislature suspended that COLA in 2008. From 2007-08 to the 2016-17 school year the average increase in the CPI-Urban index was 2.28% per year. Cumulative, the Index over the 10 years rose 22.77%. Compounded, $10,000 over those 10 years would have climbed to $12,531, a 25.3% increase.

    More data.....in the 2000-01 school year the average teacher base salary ($46,053) was 138% of the average per capita income in WA. In 2007-08 it was 121% and in 2016-17 it was 107%.

    I would argue the raises teachers have received over the past two years have been more about catching up on the lost COLA's that we didn't receive since the legislature suspended them in 2008. In addition, teachers have always been paid based on a salary schedule created by the state (this was changed a couple years ago with the new funding model where each district creates their own scale). This scale topped out at Masters level + 90 credits (or PHD) on the top row and years of experience as rows along the side. The experience rows stopped at 17 years experience. Top pay was at the bottom right of the scale (MA=90 and 17+ years experience). If you had achieved MA=90 and taught more than 17 years, you would not get a raise in your base salary, unless funded by the state. So, one could conceivably teach 30 years with the last 13 not receiving a raise from the state, unless it was locally bargained. This locally bargained piece has been mostly eliminated in the new funding model, as it created discrepancies amongst districts.

    With the new funding model, according to the Senate Committee Services Staff the average salary allocation per teacher for 2019-20 was $66,520. Based on a regionalization factor some districts would receive anywhere from 6-18% in addition due to the high cost of living in their (and surrounding districts). The average teacher base salary for 2018-19 was $72,888.

    The 16% AVERAGE raise you mention is absolutely not true. Districts are allocated a certain amount of $$ based on the number of teachers they have (and the regionalization factor). Now Districts and teachers negotiate a salary schedule with that pot of money. In the negotiations, not everyone saw a 16% raise (again mostly over 2 years). In my district, if you were at the top of the scale you would see a 2 year cumulative raise of 15.6% while a teacher with no experience saw a 2 year cumulative raise of 10.2%. I don't know of any district that received an average 16% (or anywhere close to it) raise and most were in line with ours. If there is one, I'd love for you to provide that info. Looking at the numbers above, an argument could still be made that even with just had a COLA adjustment from 2008-09 we would be further ahead than we are now.

    I won't for a second be shy or apologize for how much I get paid. I have over 6 years of college and 2 college degrees as well as the equivalent of over 150 more college credits of continuing education (that teachers all have to pay out of pocket for, even though it's required to maintain our certification.). The work educators do is difficult and demanding. I know I probably won't change your attitudes regarding teachers, but it always bothers me when rhetoric like this is thrown out there. Hopefully for those with an open mind to look at the facts regarding this, it will be informative.

    I also disagree with your premise that there should or needs to be winners or losers in the funding of our children's education. There should be no reason a state can't both provide fair pay for teachers as well as adequate or above funding for student education.

    Lastly, I have no idea what you mean regarding pension debt. There have been no changes to the state teacher pension plans for at least 10-15 years. If there is any debt related to the pension it has been the legislature's failure to contribute to the pension fund for a number of years and poor investment performance. Both of these happened during the Great Recession years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagsObserver View Post
    Yet again, you’ve shifted the target. I wasn’t speaking to whether the kids might have other handicaps. I said funding is better, more teachers, more aids, more support staff, more tutoring, including in-home care and more and better nutritional access that’s either free or reduced.
    I mad an observation about what my cousin, a teacher. complains about.

    Maybe you are seeking a reason to dissent.
    It's not funny.

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    Straw man fallacy on your post above.

    You quoted my post, which was specific to funding, and you moved the goal post. I wouldn’t have mentioned it, except that it’s become a significant pattern.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagsObserver View Post
    Straw man fallacy on your post above.

    You quoted my post, which was specific to funding, and you moved the goal post. I wouldn’t have mentioned it, except that it’s become a significant pattern.
    Give it up.

    I quoted my cousin. If you have a complaint, take it up with her.
    It's not funny.

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    Hey Jedster.

    Base salary is wildly incomplete. There is a history of educators in my family. Adding sick leave, personal holidays, Cadillac insurance coverage, generous pension plans, etc. should be included in any conversation about teacher compensation. Not to mention not having to work the full year including summers, holidays, Spring break, Christmas break...

    Wouldn’t you agree?

    Oh, forgot about buying their prep period. Coaches stipend.

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    Teachers and districts need to be taught IEP classes for special needs as well. My son was basically the 1st kid where we go to get IEP with the school and such. He is high functioning but it was a crap storm.
    Love the zags for life

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    Black folks support school choice and voucher programs. Why is nobody https://townhall.com/columnists/youn...ening-n2564607

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    This thread has gotten dumber and dumber ....

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    Hey Markburn,

    I think what I have been trying to stress in my posts are that there are disparities in funding that impact the quality and level of education in different districts, and some of this is systemic and impacts certain populations greater than others. In regards to your points, I'll address each of your examples separately.

    Base salary-I used base salary because under the old salary schedule used by the state, this was the base pay every teacher received. This allows for a comparison across the state. Under the old model (2 years ago and earlier), districts and teachers would bargain for additional pay (professional responsibility stipends (PRS), or some other similar lingo) to cover additional work, which could include things like attending events after school, parent-teacher conferences, and most importantly, an acknowledgement that teachers spent time during the evenings and weekends doing work such as preparing lessons, grading work, etc and in some high cost districts pay to attract and retain teachers. Since there is a history of educators in your families I'm sure you can acknowledge that they did spend a fair amount of time outside of their contracted day taking care of these items. Because of this, you would see disparities (sometimes quite large) based on what was negotiated and what could be raised through levy funding. Bringing this back to the topic at hand, this led to some districts (richer districts) that would be way more attractive to work in, and created problems for other districts to even staff at the most basic level and also attract high quality, experienced teachers. In the past two years, the state has severely restricted the ability of teachers and districts to negotiate these additional professional responsibility stipends. Now you are seeing base pay make up the vast majority of what constitutes a classroom teachers pay.

    In regards to pay, I sign a contract at the beginning of the year that says I will work 7.5 hours each day for 180 days. That's it. The school year is 180 days, so my base pay covers the entirety of that. That mean I am paid for 1350 hours per year. I don't sign an open ended contract that doesn't stipulate a nebulous number of days or hours. I'm not sure where the expectation came that teachers should work for free above and beyond what they are paid for? If you signed a contract for a certain number of days and they asked you to work for free above that, I'm sure most people would tell them to take a flying leap. Any pay I get above that is negotiated for pay that I do IN ADDITION to my 1350 hours per year.

    Sick leave-I get 12 days per year that I can roll over. If you want to calculate that benefit into a total salary package then you need to do that for all occupations that include sick leave. When I look at salary comparisons, I never see that as part of the salary, and that is not what is shared in comparisons of occupational pay. Most professional occupations include some form of sick leave.

    I get 2 personal days per year (most districts have bargained for 2-4 of these days), which I can use for most things. In my district I can roll over 1 to the next year, so have a maximum of 3 I can use.

    Holidays (spring break, Christmas break, summers, etc)-See above regarding my 180 day contract. In the past, teachers would collect a paycheck just during the months they would work. In the past 20 years, pay is now disbursed over 12 months instead of 9. I get paid the same amount I just get smaller checks over 12 months instead of 9.

    Prep Time-at the HS level mostly universally, I get one period off to do logistical things, paperwork and/or use to plan or grade work. This is work time and not a time to kick my feet up and take a nap. At the MS level, it is generally accepted they have the same amount of prep time. Where you see the discrepancy is at the elementary or primary level where some teachers will get some time (often maybe 30 min while a specialist works with the class) either daily or sometimes only a few times a day.

    Coaches stipends-see above for extra work equals extra pay.

    "Cadillac" insurance coverage-I don't think I would ever call what we get a Cadillac insurance policy. I get to choose from a variety of plans that include low deductible to high deductible plans with varying degrees of coverage from different companies. I also get vision and dental. One of the changes for teachers with the new education funding model is instead of individual (or multiple) districts separately bargaining with insurance companies, we are now all part of the state pool. This year was our first year under the new plan. In my region, teachers will pay monthly premiums anywhere from $25/mo (individual, high deductible, limited coverage) to $350/mo (family, low deductible). In general, the state lowered the costs for families, but also boosted the cost for individuals to narrow the gap. Costs are lowered a decent amount, but also vision and dental coverage has been reduced.

    Prior to the change in funding 2 years ago, each staff member was allowed a certain amount of dollars to purchase health insurance. In 2017-18 (actual figures from our district), an individual could pay anywhere from $6-$411/mo for health insurance. For a $500 deductible plan with 20% copay, it would cost $138/mo in premiums (there was some pooling of dollars that could lower that amount each year). For a family, monthly premiums cost $689-$1774 EACH month. Subscriber with just children cost $198-$798/mo. That same $500 plan would cost a family $1,413/mo and subscriber/children $620/mo. Combined with the minimal to zero pay increases many educators in the state were going backwards (for years) in terms of pay because of the skyrocketing costs of insurance....just like everyone else.

    Generous pension plans-There are three teacher pension plans in WA. Plan 1 (closed to new subscribers before I started work in the late 90's) allowed for 60% of teacher final pay after completing 30 years of service. Sounds great, but you had to put in your 30 years to get it, and salaries, even adjusted with a COLA for those teachers were below $60k a year. Plan 2 (which was closed when I started, so wasn't an option for me, but is now open as an option again) allows for a teacher to get 2% of their highest continuous 5 years salary per year of service (so you work 30 years you get 60%). Teachers must contribute a set amount each month (currently 7.77% a month of their gross pay). Plan 3 (I'm on) is a hybrid plan that I think most teachers are on. There is a defined benefit where instead of 2% per year with the formula above, I can earn 1% per year of service based on my highest 5 consecutive years, and a defined contribution portion where I have to contribute anywhere from 5% to 15% of my gross pay to a 401k type account. I can then withdraw these funds at retirement. For both Plan 2 and 3 I can claim my full benefit at age 65, or age 62 if I have worked 30 years, but restrictions are placed on that. As an example, if I worked 30 years with an avg annual compensation of $90,000 I can get a pension of $4500/mo on Plan 2 or $2500/mo on Plan 3. You won't get any argument from me that this is a great benefit, and I feel bad that pensions have gone the way of the dodo in this country. It (along with social security) has provided a great floor for so many elderly people to keep them out of poverty. Yes, there have been abuses and some outrageous examples, but I will leave the argument around the benefits of pensions to another day.

    I'm curious Markburn (and Sylean), what do you think would be fair compensation for a teacher? I personally feel (and the majority of the people I work with) that I am fairly compensated for the work that I do. Of course I want my pay to increase each year as most workers do (remember, under our system once I work 17 years I've topped out on the salary schedule, so if I start teaching at 24, by age 42, I could conceivably not get a raise from the state for the next 20 years before I can draw a full pension). I feel lucky that I have the option of a pension, though it won't make me rich, and that I have sick leave and insurance coverage because I know a lot of workers don't. Based on how much schooling and training I've done I am a professional, and I don't think what I get paid, or the benefits I receive, are out of line of other professional occupations. I think by now if the word was out that teachers had it "so good" that there would be a huge surplus of teacher candidates. It's hard work (as so many of our jobs are), both from a physical and emotional standpoint.

    I apologize with my long posts but I wanted to provide details for all of information I posted. I hope I haven't derailed this thread too much and stand by my original point that education funding, both in WA and in the US (because we are a lot better off here than a majority of the states), does not provide for an equal education and systemically impacts blacks and POC more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagNative View Post
    This thread has gotten dumber and dumber ....
    Sorry to disappoint ZagNative. I think I've failed in my mission today to please you.....


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    I have found that people who complain about what our teacher's are paid have never worked in a classroom or been married to a teacher.

    My wife spent over 30 years in the classroom teaching mostly Advanced Placement classes. The last 10 years in the classroom she was a Department Head as well as a teacher. I can guarantee you that the hours spent outside the classroom were at least 50% of the hours spent inside the classroom.

    Yes, there are excesses, particularly in administration staff, but perhaps the biggest issue with funding in the schools is the unfunded mandates issued by OSPI (in Washington) and by the Federal Government.

    ZagDad

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    Back to the topic.

    Copied from a friend of mine. I am sure that many will have a bone to pick about specifics, but the generalities are true and have value.

    ***Quotas in MN are illegal. Departments can’t give you a number of arrests to make or tickets to write ***

    How to respond to these tired, obviously racist, talking points:

    1. “Black people commit more crime”

    Black neighborhoods are more heavily policed than white neighborhoods. Nearly every police department has arrest and ticketing quotas. Black crimes are simply better documented, also given the corrupt nature of many departments sometimes crimes are just made up. And lets not forget that we rarely crimilinalize white collar crime.

    2. “More white people are killed by cops than black people”

    There are 200,000,000 non-hispanic white people and 40,000,000 black people. By shear numbers yes more white people are killed by police. But black people are shot by police 4 times as often. Also do you not think cops killing unarmed people generally is not a problem?

    3. “White privilege isn’t real”

    One of the most effective ways to transfer wealth generationally is through property. Black people were excluded from owning good property until as late as the 1970s. White people have had a 300 year head start where all the institutions, economic rules, and laws were created by them with them in mind. That doesn’t make you in particular a bad person and it doesn’t mean your life isn’t hard. However it’s an acknowledgement that your life would be more difficult if you were black.

    4. “This is all sad but I can’t support rioting and looting”

    As black support for congressional legislation rises from 0% to 100% the chances Congress acts falls from 40% to 30%. That’s not true for white people. If you get punished for taking part in the normal political process by voting, lobbying, petitioning, running for office etc....and peaceful protesters are arrested and abused, you’re literally being told “non-violence doesn’t work”. You should be mad at every level of government for making people feel that desperate.

    5. “All Lives Matter”

    No they don’t and they should hence the reason we’re protesting. Would you say “All Neighborhoods Matter” during natural disaster clean up? No because that’d be horribly insensitive and ignore that there is a neighborhood in particular that is suffering right now. Exactly.

    6. “White people have been oppressed too!”

    Yeah, by other white people. When Black people create a nation enshrining in their founding documents the right to own and trade white people, we can talk.

    7. “How come (insert race here) doesn’t riot or protest or loot?”

    They do, I promise you they do but it’s not well reported in the media you consume. White people burn cars and buildings if a sporting event goes wrong.

    8. “What about black on black crime”

    Black people don’t kill each other because they’re black. America is still very segregated, many neighborhoods are nearly all white or all black. People aren’t driving 20 miles across the county to kill, they kill whoever is nearby. Whites kill about as many whites as blacks kill blacks. Also ask yourself do you only bring this up in conversations about police brutality? Have you literally ever posted or talked about this in any other context?

    9. “Blue Lives Matter”

    You can stop being a cop, you can’t stop being black. Getting hurt, shot, or killed while on the clock is a occupational hazard, cops signed up for that. People of color did not.

    10. “Many of those killed had prior criminal histories. They were no angels”

    Many of the cops also have prior records of DUIs, Domestic Abuse, and other on the job murders. Also there are no perfect people and do you deserve to die because you have excessive parking tickets or have been evicted or have tried drugs or yes have even been arrested before?

    11. “If they just followed the law, they’d be fine”

    Eric Garner was killed for selling loose cigarettes, which isn’t even a misdemeanor. Even if you do commit a crime, it’s up to the legal system to determine consequences. What traffic stop warrants a death sentence? Also innocent people have been killed for simply fitting a description.

    12. “Why can’t they just peacefully protest?”

    We still get tear gassed, shot, harassed and arrested. Martin Luther King only peacefully protested and was literally murdered.

    13. “Not all cops kill or brutalize people”

    But many do and face no push back from other officers or the systems in place to catch “bad cops”. A system that allows a class of people to exist above the law and above all reproach is not in anyone’s benefit.

    14. “Cops are people too and have human reactions”

    Famously being a cop is a high pressure job. If you don’t have the mental fortitude to not beat the living hell out of someone because they yelled at you, then you shouldn’t have a gun and you definitely shouldn’t be a cop. Police departments should require anger management, more extensive background checks, and yes regular mental wellness evaluations. But they’d rather spend money on riot gear and drones.

    15. “I don’t see color”

    That’s bad. You’re ignoring the experience of every black person in this country. You’re pretending everyone is treated equally or have equal experiences in this country when that’s demonstrably false. Just because you wish it true don’t make it so. Those differences and that diversity is important to recognize.
    It's not funny.

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    Hey Will,

    I think it would be more useful if you stopped copying and pasting and gave us your own thoughts instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagNative View Post
    This thread has gotten dumber and dumber ....
    IMO this thread should never have been allowed on this forum. I understand the passion that people have for this issue, and believe me, I do too. But because this thread became something so very political it should have been moved. I understand the need for people here to express their views on racism in the United States in view of what has been going on in the past 3 weeks. I don't see why this debate over whether their is or isn't racism here in the US couldn't have been carried on in a different forum. I will say one thing, I deplore racism and it hurts me to see it displayed here in this forum that I respect so much. We do have to tolerate differing opinions when it comes to basketball. We do have to tolerant people who don't seem to know anything about basketball here on this forum. We do have to tolerate mean people sometimes here on this forum when it comes to basketball. But when it comes to making racist statements about how we treat people of color, and in particular black people, we should not have to tolerate any racist comments. IMO anyone making any statement close to a racist remark should be banned from this forum.
    I have a grandson who is black. I have a daughter in law who is black. I have many friends who are black. At least I can address this topic that was started in this thread about blacks and Gonzaga basketball. I had never known a black person until I came to Gonzaga. There were maybe a dozen of them on campus, and they were all athletes. My roommate, when we traveled, on the Gonzaga basketball team was a black man from Oakland, California. After ballgames, when we returned to our rooms to go to sleep, he would tell me all about what it was like to be a black man in Oakland. It was horrifying. HORRIFYING. I got to know this black man very well, and we became good friends, and I learned so much about racism in America from him. This black man, this black basketball player at Gonzaga, and I began to get involved in the INJUSTICES in our white systems against blacks, and we even began to PROTEST and march in order to express our indignation toward these injustices. This was in 1969-70 and protesting and marching became common and were happening in Spokane and even on Gonzaga University.

    I am not going to finish the story about what happened to this black man, me and another player on the team because I don't feel it's appropriate here, and it is a black mark on the university in my opinion. This thread, in many ways, is so racist that it makes me sick to my stomach. AND I HOPE IT'S FINALLY CLOSED. If you don't understand what all the protesting is about, go talk to some black people who live in hoods. If you don't understand what's going on when people carry signs that say Black Lives Matter, than get off this forum and go and spread your racist remarks elsewhere. My grandson, who is black, is 21 years old and plays football at Idaho State. Three years ago, on a hot summer night in Yakima, after he and a few of his friends were playing basketball at a local middle school. As it grew dark, the boys returned to the pick-up truck they were riding in. My grandson was sitting in the back of the truck with a couple of his black friends when suddenly someone being shooting at them. The shooter shot 3 times, and fortunately missed all three times, as the boys drove off into the black night. Thank God my grandson and his two other black friends were not killed. But as we all know, many young black men have been killed for NO REASON AT ALL other than the color of their skin is not white. If you can't say Black Lives Matter, get out of here. If you can't support others who can and are marching in the streets, and carrying signs that say Black Lives Matter, in order to get people to wake up, then go to some other place and spread your venom. If you can't feel the pain and fear of Black People as they watched Floyd get murdered, than you are part of the problem.

    Does racism exist today in the USA? I'll finish with a story. A young, six year old black girl, was walking with her mom in a park. A policeman approached them, because she wanted to be friendly toward this black mother and her daughter, and the young six year old girl immediately put her two arms up in their air, as if to say, please don't shoot me. This just happened the other day. Do you know or even understand the fear this little girl has, and has to live with whenever she sees a policeman? No I got one more story. A couple of weeks I ran out of gas at an intersection, and had to abandon my car and go and call a friend to come and help me. While I went over to my bank to call him, a white woman who was in that area called the police. When I came out of the bank and walked back to my car I saw her on the phone. As I approached her she asked in a tone that showed surprise, if that was my car. I said yes, and she looked guilty of something. She helped me push my car out of the intersection and into a safe parking place. She never mentioned that she had called the police. While I was waiting for my white friend, maybe ten minutes later, a policeman showed up. He told me about a lady who had called because of an abandoned car. He asked if I knew where that car was, and I told him it was mine and pointed to where it was safely parked. The policeman was really nice to me. That's how lucky I am to be white. I wonder what would have happened if I had been black? I know one thing. It would have been different.

    BLACK LIVES MATTER
    Go Zags!!! The Best Is Yet To Come!!!

  20. #470
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markburn1 View Post
    Hey Will,

    I think it would be more useful if you stopped copying and pasting and gave us your own thoughts instead.
    I happen to believe that when I see something that I believe expresses what I think, copy and pasting is appropriate.

    I have posted several times, in this thread, what I think should be done.

    I believe that the Police should be held accountable. That Qualified immunity should be banned. I DO support the police, but they need to be made to stand by their actions, lauded when good and punished when bad.
    I believe that ALL new schools need to built as state of the art schools, the best of the best, top teacher pay, top facilities. The best all the way around, and that these schools need to be built in the center of Black communities. Let the schools be so good that white students transfer in. The start of elevating the poor is to educate them.
    I believe the war on drugs has been lost. Completely start over, as much as possible, making almost all drugs legal and available. The hows of that are a thorny problem, but a start is to release all incarcerated people, of any color, for all drug related convictions, stopping only at the major importers and suppliers.
    I believe that we must expunge the greed that has gripped this country. We must insist that ALL workers are paid a living wage, one that allows food shelter, utilities, amenities and some extra because it is the spending of ALL the people of this country that make the economy. Not the stock market. Along with that, we need to tax all the extra wealth that is banked in off shore accounts. Tax it as it leaves the country or as it is brought back in. We need to tax those products that have been moved to foreign countries to avoid paying American workers a fair wage.
    In conjunction with the above, we need a universal health care system. One that gives affordable access to ALL Americans for ALL health care needs including dental and vision, but especially mental health care.
    I also believe that ALL Americans of any race, creed or color should have to attend a 'boot camp' after leaving high school, whether by graduation or dropping out. They would get complete physical health evaluations, including mental, dental and vision and receive care anywhere it was needed, and that they would serve the country in one form or another for a minimum of two years (including the boot camp). They could also receive specialized training to prepare for a career after leaving the service. I believe that this should be a requirement before being allowed to play any collegiate or professional sports in this country.

    How's that?
    It's not funny.

  21. #471
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reborn View Post
    IMO this thread should never have been allowed on this forum. I understand the passion that people have for this issue, and believe me, I do too.
    This is the appropriate forum, in my opinion, because it reaches the most Gonzaga fans. It touches the lives of all the players and all the fans, if it was in a different forum, most would never have seen it.
    It's not funny.

  22. #472
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    The logic for letting this "masterpiece" being here was 1. We have nothing better to do in this quiet basketball period and 2.......LIZ what did you say the second reason was??

  23. #473
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    Default Question for Hoopaholic

    Question for Hoopaholic. I respect your law enforcement experience and perspective, and I think you have been even handed in your remarks. There is something I have always wondered about. Last night there was a black man in Atlanta I think, shot and killed. He was wrestlilng with to police, broke free and ran off. I think he had their taser. I believe they had checked him and he had no weapons. The video shows him running away, and they shot him as he ran and killed him. I've never understood how shooting someone who was running away would be justified, unless they had reason to beleive that he might be a threat to cause serious harm to others. Yet, periodically I see where a person running away is shot and killed. Is there any basis from the law enforcement perspective for that, unless he is a threat to others ? I assume there must be some school of thought, though I can personally cant see how that could be justifiable.

    Also, I'm on the side of those who are in favor of this thread. From this point on I will view our posting community in a much more positive light. The last few years have been discouraging because far too frequently legitimate differences of opinion become, in my opinion, an excuse for disrespectful, childish comments, personal attacks implicit and explicit. Some people are more sophisticated and subtle about it, yet their disdain is clear. And yet this topic, which surely fans emotions and deeply felt beliefs, about matters of great importance, has been for the most part kept at a very respectful level. Even posters who I find often argumentative to the point of exhaustion have conducted themselves, in my opinion, very well. So going forward, I'll always remember this thread as a time when everyone's better angels keep the dialog respectful. Its really been quite remarkable and encouraging, and it illustrates the possibiliity for this board and for our culture as a whole.

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    More to the story Fone. It's nothing like Minneapolis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MDABE80 View Post
    More to the story Fone. It's nothing like Minneapolis.
    You can watch multiple video angles online. The suspect, running away from the cop turned around while running away to point the taser on the officer who then grabbed his gun and shot the guy while running away next to a drive through line with people in cars. Thankfully no one else was killed. The officer will now need to live with this homicide and may be charged. A family will never be the same. A man is dead. Why? Because the cop couldn't let the guy run away and call for back up to arrest him on the next block.

    The killing could have been avoided, like many others.

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