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Thread: Race thread (will be moved on Monday night)

  1. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB4 View Post
    No one wants the police to stand down. Read about it man. People are polarizing this issue and are making silly statements that dumb down the issue. The issue is getting the most bang for your buck for police dollars. It doesn't mean abandoning the police department. It's a sliding scale of choices. The police will never be defunded. Come on.
    I wish I could agree with you. The crazies are taking over city councils and state houses. I have not heard any discussion from the Minneapolis city council regarding "getting the most bang for your buck from police dollars."

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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasZagFan View Post
    I wish I could agree with you. The crazies are taking over city councils and state houses. I have not heard any discussion from the Minneapolis city council regarding "getting the most bang for your buck from police dollars."
    Here is an explanation of the current status for nine of the thirteen members of the Minneapolis City Council.

    Also, take a look at what occurred with the Camden, New Jersey police force which was ripe with corruption, lying, and other abuses when it was disbanded and reinstituted.

  3. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by daskim View Post
    Here is an explanation of the current status for nine of the thirteen members of the Minneapolis City Council.

    Also, take a look at what occurred with the Camden, New Jersey police force which was ripe with corruption, lying, and other abuses when it was disbanded and reinstituted.
    Thanks for posting these links. No editorial comments from me, I'd rather hear from hoop and others with LE experience.

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    here are some studies I found fascinating on the subjects being discussed, if you're interested, all within the last few years. Thick reading but packed with data, statistics, information and analysis if you're into that. There are many studies out there, UW has one recently I believe, but the below revolve around Harvard Prof Roland Fryer's July 2017 paper the NYTimes made famous (before it was vetted) about police use of lethal and non-lethal force and minorities

    here's the study from Harvard's Roland Fryer the NYTimes made famous
    https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/fr...es_figures.pdf

    here is a rebuttal with numerous interesting studies linked
    https://scholar.harvard.edu/jfeldman...ootings-police

    and this one about statistics and data gathering on the subject, very interesting
    https://csdp.princeton.edu/news/knox...-cited-science

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    [QUOTE=TexasZagFan;1520679]ZagHouse, you left out Blazing Saddles...was that on purpose?

    No. Blazing Saddles was great and while its message is undeniable, the PC world we live in would never allow a movie like that to be made today. There's a ton more I could have listed. Richard Pryor, Rock, Chapelle, and so many more. But it's weird. I didn't go see Beverly Hills Cop because I loved Judge Reinhold. It has to be terrible growing up in some parts of this country and I'm aware skin color amplifies some of those struggles. But, I remember when my daughter was six and we were watching a competitive cooking show. She asked me who I wanted to win. One of the contestants happened to be black. Because they were all wearing the same cooking attire and I couldn't immediately think of a different way to identify him. I said, "I hope the black guy wins." She replied, "Which one is that?" Now, society is telling me I am a terrible father unless I sit her down and have a serious discussion about race. I guess the new outlook is that someone shouldn't be oblivious to skin color but now must take that into consideration whenever interacting with someone. I can't be "Are they a good person." It's not that I don't think it's important for my daughter to learn about the history of this country and the plight of some of it's people, or that we don't have room to grow as a nation, it's that by separating us based on something as simple as skin color, we are claiming that the human experience is inherently different based on genetics. Feelings like pain, love, loss, joy, remorse, are no longer universal, but are weighted based on what you look like and how or where you grew up. People grow up in terrible conditions under terrible circumstances all over the world. I think everyone wants the world to work for everyone. For everyone to find a level of comfort, success and happiness. Hopefully, this moment allows us to at least recognize and reach out to those in need regardless of what they look like.

  6. #281
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    [QUOTE=ZagHouse;1520686]
    Quote Originally Posted by TexasZagFan View Post
    ZagHouse, you left out Blazing Saddles...was that on purpose?

    No. Blazing Saddles was great and while its message is undeniable, the PC world we live in would never allow a movie like that to be made today. There's a ton more I could have listed. Richard Pryor, Rock, Chapelle, and so many more. But it's weird. I didn't go see Beverly Hills Cop because I loved Judge Reinhold. It has to be terrible growing up in some parts of this country and I'm aware skin color amplifies some of those struggles. But, I remember when my daughter was six and we were watching a competitive cooking show. She asked me who I wanted to win. One of the contestants happened to be black. Because they were all wearing the same cooking attire and I couldn't immediately think of a different way to identify him. I said, "I hope the black guy wins." She replied, "Which one is that?" Now, society is telling me I am a terrible father unless I sit her down and have a serious discussion about race. I guess the new outlook is that someone shouldn't be oblivious to skin color but now must take that into consideration whenever interacting with someone. I can't be "Are they a good person." It's not that I don't think it's important for my daughter to learn about the history of this country and the plight of some of it's people, or that we don't have room to grow as a nation, it's that by separating us based on something as simple as skin color, we are claiming that the human experience is inherently different based on genetics. Feelings like pain, love, loss, joy, remorse, are no longer universal, but are weighted based on what you look like and how or where you grew up. People grow up in terrible conditions under terrible circumstances all over the world. I think everyone wants the world to work for everyone. For everyone to find a level of comfort, success and happiness. Hopefully, this moment allows us to at least recognize and reach out to those in need regardless of what they look like.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZagHouse View Post
    It’s weird. Apparently I’ve had blinders on for most of my life. I remember Growing up on entertainment where shows like The Jefferson’s and Cosby were watched by households all over America. Oprah became a national icon. Loving movies and actors like Denzel, Eddie Murphy and Will Smith to name a few. Loving the NBA and the NFL. Loving certain players and Teams and never once thinking about race. Thinking Halle Berry was the most beautiful woman alive. I think the reason most people never thought about race is because we were taught not to. Content of character over the color of someone’s skin. Now, we must consider race or it cheapens someone’s life experience. I think most people have always thought Black lives mattered before it was a slogan and if they didn’t stop to consider what life was like for a black person it was only because they were too busy trying to survive their own life. It’s hard to think of privilege when life is a grind. When loved ones get sick and die. My father for example had a childhood I wouldn’t wish on anyone. For someone to say that it was the color of his skin that allowed him to overcome the challenges he faced in his life denigrates all of his struggles. Most people abhor racism, poverty, inequality. The ability to recognize it though is far different than the feeling that you have any power to change it. I can only control me. I don’t want to control how someone else thinks and there’s a danger in wanting to control. There's a danger in shouting down or shaming someone for what you perceive is in their heart. My worry is that this movement has “fear” baked into saying and doing what should be said and done. It only requires fake empathy or the appearance of caring so people can get on with their lives.
    I don't think you've had blinders on. I don't think you're a terrible father if you don't think to talk about race in a given moment. I do think you have brought up some very important, interesting, and thoughtful points and perspectives. To your point, the MLK dream speech was about judging a person not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. And I think that at an individual level that still holds true. A person's character is what matters. But when we are talking about people, at a group level, there is a lot of evidence that this dream is not happening in many parts of our country, in many situations and institutions, and for many people of different cultures and races and religions and ethnicities. Until this dream is achieved, it can be really helpful to acknowledge that not everybody is "starting the race" at the same point to use a really bad analogy. To judge a person by the content of their character may include considering some of the obstacles you may never really think about that they have had to overcome. As a psychologist, I always try to remember the fundamental attribution error -- that we often attribute to a person traits that may be more influenced by his or her environment. The intersection of poverty and poor socioeconomic status with race in our country makes this a very hard distinction to draw.

    To your point about your father. I think it's important to reiterate that white privilege does not mean that all white people, or any given white person, is privileged or has had an easy life or hasn't faced enormous obstacles. It's about the recognition that all else being equal (which is saying a lot), there are often many subtle advantages that white people in our country are allowed. Today, this means both incredibly small benefits like finding band-aids that match your skin to looking at the Fortune 500 CEO list as a child, dreaming of being on there one day, and not having to squint to find the .08% that are Black.

    Take my own family history. My great grandfather was horribly abused as a child in Austria. He somehow escaped to the US in the early 1900's with his family and eventually settled in Montana. He and my grandfather were both incredibly hard working and incredibly poor. And yet. They could vote. Own land. Send their children to good schools. They were never kicked out of a church or a school or a store. These things helped them build up our family farm from a small, destitute farmhouse to a modest but successful farm that my father ran for 40 years. My ancestors worked hard, sacrificed, and had little to show for it...but because they were white, their sacrifices provided my family and me with a great deal. The same would not have been true if they were Black. I have worked very hard for my own achievements in life, but I can also recognize that there are many, many things that have helped me along the way. And I know that, when I have made some mistakes in life, I've also had more leeway because of my racial background.

    None of this is to insult or criticize you our your perspective. These are tough issues to grapple with. I don't have many, or maybe any, of the answers. But I do think that our thinking on these issues have changed over time. The "melting pot" ideal taught for a long time missed out on the importance of celebrating our different cultures and values and backgrounds rather than pretending they don't exist. And where inequity is, I believe we can both try to lift others up while acknowledging our own advantages, however big or little they might be. Because I work in healthcare, and many of my patients have sickle cell disease, I am committed to finding solutions to help with inequity we see in analgesia and healthcare delivery for Black youth. I think it's important, but everybody has their role to play.

  7. #282
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    [QUOTE=zagfan24;1520692]
    Quote Originally Posted by ZagHouse View Post



    I don't think you've had blinders on. I don't think you're a terrible father if you don't think to talk about race in a given moment. I do think you have brought up some very important, interesting, and thoughtful points and perspectives. To your point, the MLK dream speech was about judging a person not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. And I think that at an individual level that still holds true. A person's character is what matters. But when we are talking about people, at a group level, there is a lot of evidence that this dream is not happening in many parts of our country, in many situations and institutions, and for many people of different cultures and races and religions and ethnicities. Until this dream is achieved, it can be really helpful to acknowledge that not everybody is "starting the race" at the same point to use a really bad analogy. To judge a person by the content of their character may include considering some of the obstacles you may never really think about that they have had to overcome. As a psychologist, I always try to remember the fundamental attribution error -- that we often attribute to a person traits that may be more influenced by his or her environment. The intersection of poverty and poor socioeconomic status with race in our country makes this a very hard distinction to draw.

    To your point about your father. I think it's important to reiterate that white privilege does not mean that all white people, or any given white person, is privileged or has had an easy life or hasn't faced enormous obstacles. It's about the recognition that all else being equal (which is saying a lot), there are often many subtle advantages that white people in our country are allowed. Today, this means both incredibly small benefits like finding band-aids that match your skin to looking at the Fortune 500 CEO list as a child, dreaming of being on there one day, and not having to squint to find the .08% that are Black.

    Take my own family history. My great grandfather was horribly abused as a child in Austria. He somehow escaped to the US in the early 1900's with his family and eventually settled in Montana. He and my grandfather were both incredibly hard working and incredibly poor. And yet. They could vote. Own land. Send their children to good schools. They were never kicked out of a church or a school or a store. These things helped them build up our family farm from a small, destitute farmhouse to a modest but successful farm that my father ran for 40 years. My ancestors worked hard, sacrificed, and had little to show for it...but because they were white, their sacrifices provided my family and me with a great deal. The same would not have been true if they were Black. I have worked very hard for my own achievements in life, but I can also recognize that there are many, many things that have helped me along the way. And I know that, when I have made some mistakes in life, I've also had more leeway because of my racial background.

    None of this is to insult or criticize you our your perspective. These are tough issues to grapple with. I don't have many, or maybe any, of the answers. But I do think that our thinking on these issues have changed over time. The "melting pot" ideal taught for a long time missed out on the importance of celebrating our different cultures and values and backgrounds rather than pretending they don't exist. And where inequity is, I believe we can both try to lift others up while acknowledging our own advantages, however big or little they might be. Because I work in healthcare, and many of my patients have sickle cell disease, I am committed to finding solutions to help with inequity we see in analgesia and healthcare delivery for Black youth. I think it's important, but everybody has their role to play.
    Thanks for the thoughtful response. I'm all for listening. I'm all for eliminating obstacles that are getting in the way of the American Dream. I still don't understand the point of acknowledging advantages. No one is afforded the same starting point. From physical and intellectual attributes, to socio-economic advantages, no one starts the race at the same point. Some start with intact family units, some with single mothers. What about someone born with a physical handicap? I would imagine that life is hard in general and wouldn't say, yeah but if that child was black, it would be extra hard. We can work to make the world a better place for all, but to start looking at equity in terms of who has what in terms of beginnings and eventual outcomes is some dystopian hell I don't want to live in. I'm not saying you're advocating for that, but you seem to be saying that in the back of my mind I should always be reminding myself of how good I've got it and to recognize that came from a place of privilege, that there are others out there who don't or didn't have the same opportunities. Isn't everyone aware of that. Would your grandparents even understand what you are talking about? Back to my daughter; what are we telling our kids if they are taught that some will have to work that much harder to succeed and others won't but it all depends on the color of your skin, not at the individual level per se but when we're focusing on a group. And if you succeed and you're white, you need to recognize that it's only because of the subtle advantages that white people in our country are allowed. I think there's danger in asking kids to look through the world with that lens.

  8. #283
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    Kits been said before but I want to thank everyone for a civil conversation it brightens my day knowing we can engage in discussion, learn, understand and work together to continue to improve on opportunities for all

    Ed Casey
    Basketball...The Toy Department of Life

    Don't mess wth happy...Coach Few

  9. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagHouse View Post
    what are we telling our kids if they are taught that some will have to work that much harder to succeed and others won't but it all depends on the color of your skin, not at the individual level per se but when we're focusing on a group. And if you succeed and you're white, you need to recognize that it's only because of the subtle advantages that white people in our country are allowed. I think there's danger in asking kids to look through the world with that lens.
    I don't think anyone is arguing that "it all depends on the color of your skin" or that the success of white people is "only because of subtle advantages". Those are strawmen.
    Agent provocateur

  10. #285
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    [QUOTE=ZagHouse;1520693]
    Quote Originally Posted by zagfan24 View Post
    I still don't understand the point of acknowledging advantages.

    ...but you seem to be saying that in the back of my mind I should always be reminding myself of how good I've got it and to recognize that came from a place of privilege, that there are others out there who don't or didn't have the same opportunities. Isn't everyone aware of that.

    what are we telling our kids if they are taught that some will have to work that much harder to succeed and others won't but it all depends on the color of your skin, not at the individual level per se but when we're focusing on a group. And if you succeed and you're white, you need to recognize that it's only because of the subtle advantages that white people in our country are allowed.
    I think that acknowledging advantages helps us have humility, empathy, gratitude, and perspective. I think it also helps understand the benefits of providing supports for those with fewer advantages. You're right, those advantages come in many shapes and forms. But I don't think you're right in that everyone is aware of that. Most may KNOW it at a cognitive level. But, there are a lot of people who are born on third that go around in life acting like they hit a triple, and being dismissive of or active better than those at second who were born outside of the stadium.

    To your other point, as sonuvazag points out, I'm certainly not suggesting that success ALL depends on race, or that accomplishments or failures are ONLY because of skin color. It's just one of many factors to consider, but it's one that those in a majority racial group often have the privilege of ignoring. One thing that I learned in research and reading in this area is that people of color in our country think often about their skin color, as being a minority makes it so much more salient. In most situations, being white means you don't have to think about your race because it has an almost default status in our country.

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    [QUOTE=zagfan24;1520701]
    Quote Originally Posted by ZagHouse View Post

    I think that acknowledging advantages helps us have humility, empathy, gratitude, and perspective. I think it also helps understand the benefits of providing supports for those with fewer advantages. You're right, those advantages come in many shapes and forms. But I don't think you're right in that everyone is aware of that. Most may KNOW it at a cognitive level. But, there are a lot of people who are born on third that go around in life acting like they hit a triple, and being dismissive of or active better than those at second who were born outside of the stadium.

    To your other point, as sonuvazag points out, I'm certainly not suggesting that success ALL depends on race, or that accomplishments or failures are ONLY because of skin color. It's just one of many factors to consider, but it's one that those in a majority racial group often have the privilege of ignoring. One thing that I learned in research and reading in this area is that people of color in our country think often about their skin color, as being a minority makes it so much more salient. In most situations, being white means you don't have to think about your race because it has an almost default status in our country.
    This is from a link posted above. I don't normally like to post large blocks of data, buyt this should be read. It provides some insight into what 'white privilege' is.

    Daily effects of white privilege
    I decided to try to work on myself at least by identifying some of the daily effects of white privilege in
    my life. I have chosen those conditions that I think in my case attach somewhat more to skin-color
    privilege than to class, religion, ethnic status, or geographic location, though of course all these other
    factors are intricately intertwined. As far as I can tell, my African American coworkers, friends, and
    acquaintances with whom I come into daily or frequent contact in this particular time, place and time of
    work cannot count on most of these conditions.
    1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.
    2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to
    mistrust my kind or me.
    3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can
    afford and in which I would want to live.
    4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.
    5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.
    6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely
    represented.
    7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my
    color made it what it is.
    8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their
    race.
    9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.
    10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.
    11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the
    only member of his/her race.
    12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket
    and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find
    someone who can cut my hair.
    13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the
    appearance of financial reliability.
    14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.
    15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical
    protection.
    16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and
    workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.
    17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.
    18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute
    these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.
    19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.
    20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.
    21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.
    22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's
    majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.
    23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without
    being seen as a cultural outsider.
    24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.
    25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled
    out because of my race.
    26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's
    magazines featuring people of my race.
    27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than
    isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.
    28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize
    her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.
    29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program
    centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues
    disagree with me.
    30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me
    more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.
    31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage
    them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative
    consequences of any of these choices.
    32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.
    33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my
    race.
    34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.
    35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job
    suspect that I got it because of my race.
    36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether
    it had racial overtones.
    37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my
    next steps, professionally.
    38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether
    a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.
    39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.
    40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be
    mistreated in the places I have chosen.
    41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.
    42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my
    race.
    43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.
    44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.
    45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.
    46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.
    47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal
    with us.
    48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.
    49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not
    turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.
    50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.
    It's not funny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zagfan24 View Post
    One thing that I learned in research and reading in this area is that people of color in our country think often about their skin color, as being a minority makes it so much more salient. In most situations, being white means you don't have to think about your race because it has an almost default status in our country.
    This is a great point. I know some will dismiss this as a result of the media and hucksters reinforcing division, but the year I lived in a primarily black neighborhood in Los Angeles, I thought about being a white person there all the time and there was an uncomfortable tension that I had to consciously try to overcome to feel what for the rest of life had been my default level of ease. I doubt the experience gave me even close to a full comprehension of what it means to be black in America, but it opened my eyes quite a bit and made me a lot more humble about what I think I can understand about what it's like to be a minority in America.

    Just to be clear, there wasn't a single moment I can think of when anyone acted overtly in a way that made me feel uncomfortable and, yet, I was often on edge without meaning to be.
    Agent provocateur

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    Quote Originally Posted by sonuvazag View Post
    This is a great point. I know some will dismiss this as a result of the media and hucksters reinforcing division, but the year I lived in a primarily black neighborhood in Los Angeles, I thought about being a white person there all the time and there was an uncomfortable tension that I had to consciously try to overcome to feel what for the rest of life had been my default level of ease. I doubt the experience gave me even close to a full comprehension of what it means to be black in America, but it opened my eyes quite a bit and made me a lot more humble about what I think I can understand about what it's like to be a minority in America.

    Just to be clear, there wasn't a single moment I can think of when anyone acted overtly in a way that made me feel uncomfortable and, yet, I was often on edge without meaning to be.
    I grew up on an Indian Reservation. I was a little white kid among 85% Native Americans. I was bullied regularly because I was white and I was small. I was saved beatings because my older brother received them until he didn't and garnered a reputation as a tough guy not to be messed with.

    I have no bitterness at all or lasting effects from the first 18 years of my life living as a minority. I have very good friends who are Native American and I cherish those friendships.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sonuvazag View Post
    This is a great point. I know some will dismiss this as a result of the media and hucksters reinforcing division, but the year I lived in a primarily black neighborhood in Los Angeles, I thought about being a white person there all the time and there was an uncomfortable tension that I had to consciously try to overcome to feel what for the rest of life had been my default level of ease. I doubt the experience gave me even close to a full comprehension of what it means to be black in America, but it opened my eyes quite a bit and made me a lot more humble about what I think I can understand about what it's like to be a minority in America.

    Just to be clear, there wasn't a single moment I can think of when anyone acted overtly in a way that made me feel uncomfortable and, yet, I was often on edge without meaning to be.
    Why? I sincerely don’t understand this. I live in a minority major majority county and I’ve never felt any anxiety about it. I’ve coached in gyms where I was the only salt in a sea of pepper and wasn’t on edge. Years ago I worked in the vineyards where nothing but Spanish was spoken by all brown people and wasn’t concerned about my whiteness.

    I contend that 99% of all people are just looking to take care of themselves and their families. White, black, yellow or brown, people are just looking to put a roof over their heads and food on their tables. If more people would be aware of opportunity instead of roadblocks we would be a lot better off. And that includes most people including whites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by former1dog View Post
    I grew up on an Indian Reservation. I was a little white kid among 85% Native Americans. I was bullied regularly because I was white and I was small. I was saved beatings because my older brother received them until he didn't and garnered a reputation as a tough guy not to be messed with.

    I have no bitterness at all or lasting effects from the first 18 years of my life living as a minority. I have very good friends who are Native American and I cherish those friendships.
    Would you say you thought more about being a white person while you were on the reservation than you do now?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markburn1 View Post
    Why? I sincerely don’t understand this. I live in a minority major majority county and I’ve never felt any anxiety about it. I’ve coached in gyms where I was the only salt in a sea of pepper and wasn’t on edge. Years ago I worked in the vineyards where nothing but Spanish was spoken by all brown people and wasn’t concerned about my whiteness.

    I contend that 99% of all people are just looking to take care of themselves and their families. White, black, yellow or brown, people are just looking to put a roof over their heads and food on their tables. If more people would be aware of opportunity instead of roadblocks we would be a lot better off. And that includes most people including whites.
    Yeah, I've been in gyms where I was one of the only white people too. My experience in Los Angeles was different. And, yes, I acknowledged in my post there was no indication that anyone wasn't minding their business or going about their lives as normal.

    Let me make this clear. I chose to live there because I assumed that most people are fine and I'd be OK. I didn't choose the anxiety.

    My whole point is the experience opened my eyes about something I had no idea about before. When in younger years, I overhead a black person say how hard it is to live in Spokane, I thought, "Why? I'd love to have the attention of being different." I don't think that any more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonuvazag View Post
    Would you say you thought more about being a white person while you were on the reservation than you do now?
    Not really.

    The most important thing I learned growing up on a personal level was that empathy, love, respect will overcome any difference eventually. My Father was respected and loved in our community because he demonstrated those principles for the 50+ years he lived there until his death. One of his most prized possession was an oil painting presented to him by his good friend who happened to be the Tribal Chairman for many years. The painting was of a Native American Medicine Man who is one of the most respected members of any native tribe. My Father was a pharmacist.

    Growing up on the reservation was formative to the point that it influences how I think about just about everything in my life. As you may recall from our interactions years ago on the OCC, I have very definitive ideas about what is wrong in poor communities in this country and it doesn't have much to do with skin color.

    My time is short right now, but I'm happy to circle back and share personal experiences as well as years of research on what would contribute towards solving the real problems faced by poor communities in our country, including those that happen to be predominantly black.

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    Quote Originally Posted by former1dog View Post
    Not really.
    Quote Originally Posted by former1dog View Post
    I was bullied regularly because I was white and I was small.
    What if it had nothing to do with being white and was just because you were small. You see, I can be dismissive of how you qualify your experience in the way Markburn is dismissive of mine. After all, how do you know the notion that being white got you bullied wasn't all something you dreamed up in your head?

    Or maybe they explicitly told you it was because you were white, but if that's the case I have a hard time believing you didn't think about your whiteness more than I did growing up in Spokane where it was almost never a thought.
    Agent provocateur

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    Quote Originally Posted by sonuvazag View Post
    What if it had nothing to do with being white and was just because you were small. You see, I can be dismissive of how you qualify your experience in the way Markburn is dismissive of mine. After all, how do you know the notion that being white got you bullied wasn't all something you dreamed up in your head?

    Or maybe they explicitly told you it was because you were white, but if that's the case I have a hard time believing you didn't think about your whiteness more than I did growing up in Spokane where it was almost never a thought.
    I think you misunderstood me. I was aware I was different from an extremely young age. I was bullied explicitly because I was white before I was even in Kindergarten. I知 hardwired to be aware of how I知 different from everyone around me.

    Now, I知 a Catholic in a 90% Mormon neighborhood.

    The reason I don稚 think differently now that I live off the reservation is that I知 still aware that I知 white. I go home to the Rez at least yearly. I interact with my Native American friends on a near daily basis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by former1dog View Post
    I think you misunderstood me. I was aware I was different from an extremely young age. I was bullied explicitly because I was white before I was even in Kindergarten. I’m hardwired to be aware of how I’m different from everyone around me.

    Now, I’m a Catholic in a 90% Mormon neighborhood.

    The reason I don’t think differently now that I live off the reservation is that I’m still aware that I’m white. I go home to the Rez at least yearly. I interact with my Native American friends on a near daily basis.
    Thanks for clarifying. I agree that there is likely to be some kind of hardwiring that is activated under such circumstances and I could understand how it could be permanent after 18 years.

    What I thought that was unique about my experience was how much I could tell my baseline changed. I was there with my wife and one-year old daughter. My wife and I talked about it and our feelings were similar. It didn't help that there were constantly helicopters circling above at night. I'd be willing to bet there were many other elements of the neighborhood that made everyone there feel more on edge than you would in a sleepy part of town.

    You see, I don't know how much it had to do with being white among other factors. It just made me less certain that I know what someone else is going through and why.

    It's just a fact that you don't know what you don't know.
    Agent provocateur

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    Quote Originally Posted by sonuvazag View Post
    Thanks for clarifying. I agree that there is likely to be some kind of hardwiring that is activated under such circumstances and I could understand how it could be permanent after 18 years.

    What I thought that was unique about my experience was how much I could tell my baseline changed. I was there with my wife and one-year old daughter. My wife and I talked about it and our feelings were similar. It didn't help that there were constantly helicopters circling above at night. I'd be willing to bet there were many other elements of the neighborhood that made everyone there feel more on edge than you would in a sleepy part of town.

    You see, I don't know how much it had to do with being white among other factors. It just made me less certain that I know what someone else is going through and why.

    It's just a fact that you don't know what you don't know.
    I would suspect your baseline changed because you are a good and empathetic person. I also suspect and hope that you got to know your neighbors? I suspect that getting to know them, that you learned that on a very fundamental and important level, you had a lot more in common than you had differences.

    As I got older living on the Rez and made friends of all colors and ethnicities and was "accepted" (for the most part) I noticed the differences were still there, but they melted in importance and what remained was the common values that we shared. I've always recognized the differences in me versus "others". No matter what, when I walk into a room I know I'm different from everyone else. They don't know what I've been through and I don't know what they have been through. So for me, it starts with respect and kindness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sonuvazag View Post
    What if it had nothing to do with being white and was just because you were small. You see, I can be dismissive of how you qualify your experience in the way Markburn is dismissive of mine. After all, how do you know the notion that being white got you bullied wasn't all something you dreamed up in your head?

    Or maybe they explicitly told you it was because you were white, but if that's the case I have a hard time believing you didn't think about your whiteness more than I did growing up in Spokane where it was almost never a thought.
    I didn’t dismiss your story. In point of fact, I stated that I sincerely didn’t understand it based on my personal experience. Everybody’s story is different. That’s all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Markburn1 View Post
    I didn’t dismiss your story. In point of fact, I stated that I sincerely didn’t understand it based on my personal experience. Everybody’s story is different. That’s all.
    Fair enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by former1dog View Post
    I would suspect your baseline changed because you are a good and empathetic person. I also suspect and hope that you got to know your neighbors? I suspect that getting to know them, that you learned that on a very fundamental and important level, you had a lot more in common than you had differences.

    As I got older living on the Rez and made friends of all colors and ethnicities and was "accepted" (for the most part) I noticed the differences were still there, but they melted in importance and what remained was the common values that we shared. I've always recognized the differences in me versus "others". No matter what, when I walk into a room I know I'm different from everyone else. They don't know what I've been through and I don't know what they have been through. So for me, it starts with respect and kindness.
    The neighbors were fine. None of my story is about my ability to get along with people from different backgrounds or of different skin colors. I understand that in getting to know someone, a lot of the initial boundaries can melt away.

    The point was I spent more time contemplating my race. When I'd go to the grocery store, I'd know people would be more likely to notice the white guy so I'd make sure to mind my business and not act too weird which is probably what I'd do anyway, but not something I would give a thought about before. And that experience supports Zag24's assertion that black Americans spend more time thinking about their race. I don't know if I would have believed that before going to LA.
    Agent provocateur

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    Quote Originally Posted by sonuvazag View Post
    The neighbors were fine. None of my story is about my ability to get along with people from different backgrounds or of different skin colors. I understand that in getting to know someone, a lot of the initial boundaries can melt away.

    The point was I spent more time contemplating my race. When I'd go to the grocery store, I'd know people would be more likely to notice the white guy so I'd make sure to mind my business and not act too weird which is not something I would worry about before. And that experience supports Zag24's assertion that black Americans spend more time thinking about their race. I don't know if I would have believed that before going to LA.
    Maybe it’s me. I have gone through life not much caring what people think of me. My wife of forty two years doesn’t understand how that works. Hahahaha

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