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Thread: Race thread (will be moved on Monday night)

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by LTownZag View Post
    That's some really overly simplistic thinking about proportionality or disproportionality. Women are under-arrested per-capita, but we don't think police are uniformly sexist against men. We don't get worried that elderly americans, or Asian Americans, or Amish/mennonite/devout Muslim or orthodox Jewish americans are all arrested at levels FAR BELOW their raw per-capita numbers in the country. We don't accuse or assume that the police have massive hidden pro-women or pro-elderly or pro-Asian or Pro-religion biases to explain why so few people from those groups are arrested, assaulted by, or killed by police. We understand that it's silly to expect police interactions and police violence to be distributed equally (what current social justice proponents would call "equity") across a society with massively unequal crime rates.

    If you compare the numbers of people from "x" group who are killed by police annually to the number of annual violent crimes, or arrests for violent crimes, or simply number of murders and assaults committed each year by people from "X" group, you find an extremely high correlation and close proportionality.

    People over age 60 or women or Asian-Americans aren't committing murders, aren't encountering police in violent situations, and aren't getting arrested or killed. People from other groups (and basically just males from age 15-40 without stable employment or families) are doing all of those bad things, and are getting arrested and killed.



    The 72% total groups hispanics with whites. I personally think all these categories are a stupid antiquated dead-end, but "white" americans make up 60% of the country, not 72%.
    Much of the reasons that age group is getting killed is economic, which often is tied directly back into race. Educational opportunities for blacks are well below that of whites. The schools for predominately white, urban kids get the money and support. Black kids and rural kids have fewer computers to work with, fewer teachers wanting to teach there etc.

    Rather than disagreeing with my statistics, what do YOU think should be done to alleviate this problem and eventually solve it?

    Please be somewhat specific.
    Hoping you have a sense of humor too!

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPtheBeasta View Post
    It may still be due to conflation but, if so, the debate was about disrespecting the flag very early on. This error was never corrected. For many people on the outside this was about disrespecting the flag, because his protest happened during the anthem, and it seems revisionist to suggest it was never about that. I don’t think his protest would have been offensive to so many if it happened at another time during pregame (any time but the anthem, essentially). This may be another example of persons talking past each other, or worse— people trying to take control of the narrative with an alternate reality.
    That’s exactly my point. Once the furor began there was no one on the Kap side with enough sense to articulate what the purpose of the demonstration was. Tommie Smith and Juan Carlos were different. They were protesting America through the flag, imo. Though oddly they carried small flags. Kap handled it poorly it might have played out differently. But Brees — who never served — was wrong wrapping himself in the flag and praising his grandfather. Geez.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagDad84 View Post
    Police contact by Demographic Characteristics:
    Whites (23%) were more likely than blacks (20%) or Hispanics (17%) to have contact with police. Police were equally likely to initiate contact with blacks and whites (11% each) but were less likely to initiate contact with Hispanics (9%). Also, police were more likely to initiate contact with males (12%) than with females (9%), while females (11%) were more likely to initiate contact with police than males (10%).

    Here is what this stat leaves out. A comparison. Whites make up 60% of the population... Blacks make up 13%. Hispanic 18%.
    "And Morrison? He did what All-Americans do. He shot daggers in the daylight and stole a win." - Steve Kelley (Seattle Times)

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    JP correct. It was about the flag and somebody or some peoples shifted it to police beating up blacks/shooting blacks. Not it's shifted to equality. These shifts lead me to believe it can be whatever the BLM folks/ media wants it to be in any given situation. All these black athletes ( some white ones too) step into the arguments and really don't understand the shifting.
    Kap will never be hired by a team for a couple of reasons, he's destructive and divisive in a team sport..........and when he had a good season or two, he lost his edge and is mediocre. Social issuess on a baskeball board? Can't be good outcome. Foo? or somewhere else.?? Sorry but someone had to say it.... probably best to move this!

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPtheBeasta View Post
    It may still be due to conflation but, if so, the debate was about disrespecting the flag very early on. This error was never corrected. For many people on the outside this was about disrespecting the flag, because his protest happened during the anthem, and it seems revisionist to suggest it was never about that. I don’t think his protest would have been offensive to so many if it happened at another time during pregame (any time but the anthem, essentially). This may be another example of persons talking past each other, or worse— people trying to take control of the narrative with an alternate reality.
    Don’t you think it would have been more disrespectful if the players fled to the locker room or tunnel right before the anthem? They did stay, many stood, some kneeled. I don’t think there’s a comparable point in the game where public attention — especially tv — is as laser focused as the anthem.

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    I'd like to thank everybody who's posted their thoughts on this thread. The respectful manner of discourse is most appreciated.

    I think it's safe to say we should all listen more to others. I encountered a bit of that last summer at Monticello. A black woman asked Thomas Jefferson's "interpreter" some very pointed questions on slavery. IIRC, he took a good 20 minutes to try and explain his position. It gave us more insight how Mr. Jefferson dealt with it, and in no way did he absolve himself for being a slave owner.

    I saw the woman in the gift shop, and I thanked her for asking her questions. Her reply was refreshing: "I'm a school librarian in Manassas, VA, and I learned that I need to read a lot more!" Listening and reading more is a good start to getting our nation back on track.

    As to the brouhaha between Trump and Mattis, I pay no attention to it, it's a continuation of the battles they've had with each other for several years now. I wish POTUS could act more presidential, a good first step would be to cancel his Twitter account. I'd also like for Generals and Flag Officers to get it through their thick skulls that when they retire, they're ordinary citizens like the rest of us. Of course I respect their service, but they need to fade away, as MacArthur suggested.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDABE80 View Post
    JP correct. It was about the flag and somebody or some peoples shifted it to police beating up blacks/shooting blacks. Not it's shifted to equality. These shifts lead me to believe it can be whatever the BLM folks/ media wants it to be in any given situation. All these black athletes ( some white ones too) step into the arguments and really don't understand the shifting.
    Kap will never be hired by a team for a couple of reasons, he's destructive and divisive in a team sport..........and when he had a good season or two, he lost his edge and is mediocre. Social issuess on a baskeball board? Can't be good outcome. Foo? or somewhere else.?? Sorry but someone had to say it.... probably best to move this!
    Ur spot on D. Can’t believe we’ve gotten this far.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasZagFan View Post
    I'd like to thank everybody who's posted their thoughts on this thread. The respectful manner of discourse is most appreciated.

    I think it's safe to say we should all listen more to others. I encountered a bit of that last summer at Monticello. A black woman asked Thomas Jefferson's "interpreter" some very pointed questions on slavery. IIRC, he took a good 20 minutes to try and explain his position. It gave us more insight how Mr. Jefferson dealt with it, and in no way did he absolve himself for being a slave owner.

    I saw the woman in the gift shop, and I thanked her for asking her questions. Her reply was refreshing: "I'm a school librarian in Manassas, VA, and I learned that I need to read a lot more!" Listening and reading more is a good start to getting our nation back on track.

    As to the brouhaha between Trump and Mattis, I pay no attention to it, it's a continuation of the battles they've had with each other for several years now. I wish POTUS could act more presidential, a good first step would be to cancel his Twitter account. I'd also like for Generals and Flag Officers to get it through their thick skulls that when they retire, they're ordinary citizens like the rest of us. Of course I respect their service, but they need to fade away, as MacArthur suggested.
    And pass up those fat expert fees from cable news? Not bloody likely Tex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    And pass up those fat expert fees from cable news? Not bloody likely Tex.
    Ain't that the truth. Time for me to admit my bias, regarding retired field grade and generals. One of my extra duties in my last job at Fort Bliss was to oversee our Dining Facility. Twice a month, a group of retired officers had breakfast meetings in my mess hall. God forbid my cooks didn't cater to them in a matter acceptable to them. My boss, the battalion commander, would get a call from them, and you know how the fecal matter rolls downhill.

    My response didn't sit too well with him: Dammit Colonel, my cooks don't have a secondary MOS as waiters. They're too busy cooking and serving OUR soldiers. Thus began a quick descent to the end of my promising military career!

    ETA: When my mess hall was named CG's Best Mess, the kudos I received from the Bn Cdr was "don't let it go to your head."

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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasZagFan View Post
    Ain't that the truth. Time for me to admit my bias, regarding retired field grade and generals. One of my extra duties in my last job at Fort Bliss was to oversee our Dining Facility. Twice a month, a group of retired officers had breakfast meetings in my mess hall. God forbid my cooks didn't cater to them in a matter acceptable to them. My boss, the battalion commander, would get a call from them, and you know how the fecal matter rolls downhill.

    My response didn't sit too well with him: Dammit Colonel, my cooks don't have a secondary MOS as waiters. They're too busy cooking and serving OUR soldiers. Thus began a quick descent to the end of my promising military career!

    ETA: When my mess hall was named CG's Best Mess, the kudos I received from the Bn Cdr was "don't let it go to your head."
    I was a lowly Spec 4 E 4 so I have no idea what you’re talking about. But I’d be happy to drop down and give you 20. Haven’t heard MOS in years. I was combat engineer, heavy equipment operator. And before arriving at Lewis’ North Fort and the old Yakima firing center I’d never even driven a shift car. SNAFU, as you know so well. Carry on with scheduled training....

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    I was a lowly Spec 4 E 4 so I have no idea what you’re talking about. But I’d be happy to drop down and give you 20. Haven’t heard MOS in years. I was combat engineer, heavy equipment operator. And before arriving at Lewis’ North Fort and the old Yakima firing center I’d never even driven a shift car. SNAFU, as you know so well. Carry on with scheduled training....
    Give yourself more credit, jazz. My platoon with 3 E4 squad leaders was one of the best times of my life. I think I was still a butterbar at the time.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    Don’t you think it would have been more disrespectful if the players fled to the locker room or tunnel right before the anthem? They did stay, many stood, some kneeled. I don’t think there’s a comparable point in the game where public attention — especially tv — is as laser focused as the anthem.
    What I had in mind would be something like taking a knee right after the anthem. Or right before. Or at the coin flip. I think he could have gotten enough attention, and likely more wide-spread support, from a protest at a less divisive time (namely, during the anthem). His choice to protest then basically said to a lot of people, “I don’t respect the persons who died for this country, and the founding fathers, and the pilgrims, and the politicians who are trying to make this a better place.”

    George Floyd, and other civilians who died unjustly, are also persons that should be included when we sing the anthem, and contemplate the flag and everything it represents. Instead, it’s a divisive us vs them issue.

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    My husband had an enlightening experience with Sam Dower when he lived in Desmet near Sam. My husband was driving with Sam and two white men to the McDonalds downtown at around 11 pm. Sam was in the passenger seat, preventing an officer driving nearby them to only see Sam. He quickly lit them up and when my husband pulled over 3 cop cars and multiple officers were on the scene. They removed Sam from the car. They claimed Sam didn't have his seatbelt on, but neither did the other two passengers. My husband couldn't believe that experience compared to his other experiences with the police. My father in law is a LEO and that experience changed my husband's view on this topic. He was ashamed he didn't offer assistance to Sam during the experience and was just shell shocked.

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    many of the posts in the thread are enough to make me weep. the mental gymnastics some people engage in to dismiss/minimize/ignore/justify the lived experience of black america is frightening. i agree ..... lets please shut this thread down and/or move it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willandi View Post

    Rather than disagreeing with my statistics, what do YOU think should be done to alleviate this problem and eventually solve it?

    Please be somewhat specific.
    I don’t dispute your total per capita statistic, I just think it’s irrelevant. Compare deaths by cop to groups which draw the attention of cops and interact with them, not to the whole population.

    What is the specific problem you are asking me about solutions to?

    If the problem is unarmed black men shot by police, then it’s a problem already tiny in size and already being solved. The total was 38 shot in 2015 and 9 people in all of 2019. That’s still too many, and it’s only those shot to death, so some years there were a few tragic deaths like George Floyd, who weren’t shot.

    Seattle PD revised their entire use-of-force policy 5 years ago and their violent civilian incidents have fallen by 60%. Yet SPD is being protested and treated as though they have made no progress or change or as if their policy killed George Floyd. The NYPD is also at the forefront in terms of fewest civilian deaths relative to size of police force and number of crimes in the police department area. Yet they are protested and treated as though it is 1962 and Edmund Pettus is the NYC police commissioner. I think we should continue to solve problems by acknowledging and rewarding all the good work and solutions already in place, and by spreading those solutions. Not by inflating the scope of the problem by burying our heads in the sand from the numbers.

    There were 9 unarmed black men shot by police in 2019. That’s a tiny number of deaths and is itself a much smaller than the number was 20 years ago or 10 years ago or five years ago.

    ——

    It seems like there far more evidence that black males are unjustly and disproportionately “roughed up” or otherwise pulled over, humiliated, and physically man handled, than white males. The stories and anecdotes (including from Sam Dower) support this, as does the empirical study from Black Harvard Economist Roland Fryer.

    —-


    The initial post and the Zagdad post on page1 were excellent. Thanks for contributing.
    Last edited by LTownZag; 06-04-2020 at 01:56 PM.

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    This isn't about numbers of Black Americans being shot 10, 15, 25 or 50 years ago but rather that it is still happening on a regular basis...One is too many, which is why you see the whole country in disarray. Seattle might not have shot a person of color in the last 20 years but the issue isn't so much in Seattle but rather what has happened so many times or the last few years...

    The protests are not just about the death of Floyd but rather the entire gambit of racism that exists in this country, which is felt every day by people of color. It is about a Black American being pulled over and questioned if they actually own the car; pulling over a Black American female for a bad taillight and then harassed, arrested, thrown in jail and then hanging herself a Black American being shot standing by their SUV and not making a move towards the many police officers present and then shot too death...and on and on and on...

    Black American parents have "The Talk" with all their children when they are old enough to understand about how they should never question the "WHY" they were pulled over but rather do as they are told and file complaints later, because if they were to question then the reason, then things could very well end up badly.

    Case in point an NBA player, late at night, when to the drug store to purchase something for his pregnant wife. The parking lot was empty and he chose to park in a Handicap Parking Space. While the player was in the store, a police officer stopped and began writing a ticket because there was not handicap placard or license plate. When the player came out the two of them began to converse and the player was not disrespectful to the officer but the officer called for back-up and eventually, the player was taken down and placed under arrest...

    There are just so many concerns Black Americans must worry about, while European Americans do not have these concerns...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogozags View Post
    There are just so many concerns Black Americans must worry about, while European Americans do not have these concerns...
    Just as a reminder:

    On July 15, 2017, Justine Damond, née Ruszczyk, a 40-year-old Australian-American woman, was fatally shot by Mohamed Noor, a Somali-American Minneapolis Police Department officer, after she had called 9-1-1 to report the possible assault of a woman in an alley behind her house. Occurring weeks after a high-profile manslaughter trial acquittal in the 2016 police shooting of Philando Castile, also in the Twin Cities metro area, the shooting exacerbated existing tensions and attracted national and international press.

    On March 20, 2018, Noor was charged with second-degree manslaughter and third-degree murder. Prosecutors later upgraded the charges against Noor to second-degree intentional murder. In April 2019, Noor was convicted of third-degree murder and manslaughter, but acquitted of intentional second-degree murder. In June 2019, Noor was sentenced to 12.5 years in prison.

    Same town, Minneapolis. Same reason, excessive use of lethal force by police. Same result, death of an innocent person.

    Did I miss the Public Outcry, the Protest Marches, the Looting and Riots, the nationwide news coverage for weeks?

    Did you notice the dates on the Justine Damond murderer? It took 8 months to even place charges on the police officer that killed her.

    Use of excessive force and lethal force by the nation's police force is a systemic problem that affects all of society, not just limited to our African American friends.

    ZagDad

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    SHUT THIS THREAD DOWN. Some of the posts on here are horrifying and will or should horrify many of those associated with the program and the University and those considering being associated with it. Take it elsewhere or better yet consult with someone that is directly affected by the systematic racism in this country before expressing your opinion on something you haven’t experienced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BearDownZags View Post
    SHUT THIS THREAD DOWN. Some of the posts on here are horrifying and will or should horrify many of those associated with the program and the University and those considering being associated with it. Take it elsewhere or better yet consult with someone that is directly affected by the systematic racism in this country before expressing your opinion on something you haven’t experienced.
    Are you afraid of other people having opinions different than yours? Damn, you should have seen the campus during the 70s. Sociology students were using us as lab rats for their experiments. We seemed to survive that era. And the stories I could tell about living next door to my good friend, Willie Moss, one of the sweetest guys you'd ever want to meet.

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    First and foremost I am an American. I happen to be a white American so apparently when I speak I have to be very careful that I don't offend anyone!

    Prejudice comes in all colors,
    ages,
    shapes and sizes.

    No question things have to change. l am not black so I will never know the injustice that many feel on a daily basis.
    I know the vast majority of protesters are not looters or violent. The looters are just opportunistic thugs!
    Anyway I can only control what I do and who I am. I have great friends who are black, Asian, Hispanic and oh yes white.
    When the announcer for the Sac Kings is fired for saying all lives matter instead of black lives matter it makes me wonder if Don Lemon (CNN) said all lives matter what would happen? My guess is a promotion.

    Prejudice comes in all colors, ages,shapes and sizes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FloridaZagFan View Post
    Prejudice comes in all colors, ages,shapes and sizes.
    Now you did it.

    ZagDad

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by FloridaZagFan View Post
    First and foremost I am an American. I happen to be a white American so apparently when I speak I have to be very careful that I don't offend anyone!

    Prejudice comes in all colors,
    ages,
    shapes and sizes.

    No question things have to change. l am not black so I will never know the injustice that many feel on a daily basis.
    I know the vast majority of protesters are not looters or violent. The looters are just opportunistic thugs!
    Anyway I can only control what I do and who I am. I have great friends who are black, Asian, Hispanic and oh yes white.
    When the announcer for the Sac Kings is fired for saying all lives matter instead of black lives matter it makes me wonder if Don Lemon (CNN) said all lives matter what would happen? My guess is a promotion.

    Prejudice comes in all colors, ages, shapes and sizes.
    Well said...of course, the vast majority of protestors are demonstrating peacefully. However, let's say that you have 5000 in the streets, and 99% are peaceful. That leaves 50 rioters to wreak havoc, riot, and loot. Fifty rioters can do a lot of damage if they're not stopped. In too many cases, they encountered no resistance from local police.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagDad84 View Post
    Just as a reminder:

    On July 15, 2017, Justine Damond, née Ruszczyk, a 40-year-old Australian-American woman, was fatally shot by Mohamed Noor, a Somali-American Minneapolis Police Department officer, after she had called 9-1-1 to report the possible assault of a woman in an alley behind her house. Occurring weeks after a high-profile manslaughter trial acquittal in the 2016 police shooting of Philando Castile, also in the Twin Cities metro area, the shooting exacerbated existing tensions and attracted national and international press.

    On March 20, 2018, Noor was charged with second-degree manslaughter and third-degree murder. Prosecutors later upgraded the charges against Noor to second-degree intentional murder. In April 2019, Noor was convicted of third-degree murder and manslaughter, but acquitted of intentional second-degree murder. In June 2019, Noor was sentenced to 12.5 years in prison.

    Same town, Minneapolis. Same reason, excessive use of lethal force by police. Same result, death of an innocent person.

    Did I miss the Public Outcry, the Protest Marches, the Looting and Riots, the nationwide news coverage for weeks?

    Did you notice the dates on the Justine Damond murderer? It took 8 months to even place charges on the police officer that killed her.

    Use of excessive force and lethal force by the nation's police force is a systemic problem that affects all of society, not just limited to our African American friends.

    ZagDad
    You're missing the forest for the trees. Our country doesn't have an history of enslaving, then oppressing white people. In fact, we had a federal statute that made extrajudicial lynching of "colored people" lawful on the books until 2007, while obviously not being enforced as such.

    No one is arguing that crime is bad by and against any race, but you're opinion is inconsistent with the overwhelming weight of evidence that black people continue to be grossly oppressed. Your individual cases are obvious red herrings.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reborn View Post
    Go Zags!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasZagFan View Post
    Well said...of course, the vast majority of protestors are demonstrating peacefully. However, let's say that you have 5000 in the streets, and 99% are peaceful. That leaves 50 rioters to wreak havoc, riot, and loot. Fifty rioters can do a lot of damage if they're not stopped. In too many cases, they encountered no resistance from local police.
    Tex I agree! 5 can do tremendous damage and must be stopped. Its ridiculous that the police are handcuffed! All and I mean all the people that are quasi justifying these riots and allowing destruction of property and police or law enforcement to be killed or injured have one thing in common!! If that mob was in their neighborhood who would they call? The police!

    Back to basketball! Let's go Zag's, cant wait to beat St Marys by 35 in Moraga next year!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BearDownZags View Post
    SHUT THIS THREAD DOWN. Some of the posts on here are horrifying and will or should horrify many of those associated with the program and the University and those considering being associated with it. Take it elsewhere or better yet consult with someone that is directly affected by the systematic racism in this country before expressing your opinion on something you haven’t experienced.
    How about you use this space to persuade people that you disagree with to see your side of the story.

    We inevitably are told when something like this happens that we need to have a national discussion about race. If you shut down the conversation when something is said that doesn’t meet your approval we’ll never get anywhere.

    Nobody is getting hurt here. Different viewpoints are being shared.

    Carry on.

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