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Thread: Idaho passes transgender laws for womens sports

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    Default Idaho passes transgender laws for womens sports

    How many players in women's BB will this affect and will it also apply to coaches.????

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    I don't know how many it will affect because I don't know the backgrounds of the players we see.....it has nothing at all to do with coaches or staff.....this is Idaho, and I think there is one other state who passed a similar law...why other states haven't passed laws to protect girls and womens sports is the big question.

    its ultimately unfair to ask girls and women to compete with biological males, and biology in this instance means dna...I'm sure people have read about various championships across the country where little girls were beaten out of a trophy by biological males...and then there was the case of the girl transitioning to be a boy who was taking testosterone and won a championship.....where is the sanity?...where is the fairness?






    but I want women's sports to continue, and I want little girls to know that their chance at a scholarship in sports...tennis, track, etc....is a real opportunity and one not to be lost out to someone with male dna ...dna is dna...you can change your name, your looks, your way of dress, etc...but you can not change your dna...

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    I know very little about Transgenders...I remember reading about a young lady, who was a natural anatomical female and was extremely proficient in running. She was not a normal female as she had naturally high levels to testosterone and she was not being allowed to run in international competition. I do not know the percentage of females that are born with such high levels of testosterone but they must be far and few between, let alone with the potential to be world class athletes.

    IMO they are born females and as such should be allowed to compete with other females...One could easily say that "GOD" blessed her in this fashion! Is she unusual, YES but she is still a female and that should be enough to compete as it is no fault of hers how she was born...Michael Jordan, who many would argue is the best basketball player of all time but he was not normal...he could jump over 15' and stay airborne long enough to dunk the ball from the free-throw line...we all just say he sure was gifted so now there is this female who is gifted and many are saying she should compete with males!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogozags View Post
    I know very little about Transgenders...I remember reading about a young lady, who was a natural anatomical female and was extremely proficient in running. She was not a normal female as she had naturally high levels to testosterone and she was not being allowed to run in international competition. I do not know the percentage of females that are born with such high levels of testosterone but they must be far and few between, let alone with the potential to be world class athletes.
    BozoZags,

    Caster Semenya, South African middle distance runner may be the young (29 years old) lady you are describing. She won the gold medal in the 800 meters at the 2016 Olympic Games.

    ZagDad

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagDad84 View Post
    BozoZags,

    Caster Semenya, South African middle distance runner may be the young (29 years old) lady you are describing. She won the gold medal in the 800 meters at the 2016 Olympic Games.

    ZagDad
    THANKS, yes you are right and remember ideas being bounced around by some people in the "know" with the OC and they were considering to ban her in the 2020 Olympics because she had higher than "normal" testosterone levels...

    PS: I am looking for someone with your mind reading and research skills to help me navigate these senior years I'm facing since my memory muscle is atrophying...

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    To be clear, Caster Semenya is a woman - she was born that way and is not a transgender. Sylean asked why other states have not passed a similar law as Idaho and the answer is simple. Those laws are unconstitutional and will not withstand a legal challenge under either a 5th or 14th amendment equal protection challenge. I think the Governor of Idaho understands that but most of the Idaho legislators do not. In particular, the legislators from North Idaho would not be considered on any side of bright and their collective IQ is quite possibly less than 50. So it’s something of a mystery why Governor Little signed bills he know will not stand a legal challenge which is coming from the ACLU of Idaho. While Idaho has always been a conservative state in general, notwithstanding Sen. Frank Church and Governor Cecil Andrus, in recent years it has become way more conservative to the point where it’s almost embarrassing to live here.

    Transgender athletes are a concern in high school sports, although I think it’s overstated given the relative low numbers. I am not sure what the answer is for them. I understand the argument of genetic unfairness by the female athletes competing against biological boys and the transgender athletes and their parents don’t seem to acknowledge those concerns. Listening to their comments, it’s all about them but that’s not too surprising given today’s culture. All I know is there needs to be a solution.

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    Caster Semenya is chromosomally XY not XX and has undescended testicles.
    https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05...y-chromosomes/


    She has legally challenged rules that would prohibit “female” athletes when those athletes have testosterone levels above 5nml/L, which is far far outside the amount produced by an XX person with ovaries. There is nothing close to a natural overlap between XY persons (men) and XX persons (women). The difference in T is 10X to 30X without overlap.

    Most females have natural testosterone levels of between 0.12 and 1.79 nmol/L in their blood, while men have 7.7 to 29.4 nmol/L. The IAAF have capped the female limit at 5 nmol/L. That’s the limit which disqualified Semenya.

    If that fits your personal parameters around the category of thing you call “woman” I’m not going to spend time arguing word definitions with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogozags View Post
    I know very little about Transgenders...I remember reading about a young lady, who was a natural anatomical female and was extremely proficient in running. She was not a normal female as she had naturally high levels to testosterone and she was not being allowed to run in international competition. I do not know the percentage of females that are born with such high levels of testosterone but they must be far and few between, let alone with the potential to be world class athletes.

    IMO they are born females and as such should be allowed to compete with other females...One could easily say that "GOD" blessed her in this fashion! Is she unusual, YES but she is still a female and that should be enough to compete as it is no fault of hers how she was born...Michael Jordan, who many would argue is the best basketball player of all time but he was not normal...he could jump over 15' and stay airborne long enough to dunk the ball from the free-throw line...we all just say he sure was gifted so now there is this female who is gifted and many are saying she should compete with males!!!
    Your recollection of the situation is a common one but not based in reality.

    There isn’t any overlap or anything close to overlap between female and male testosterone levels. A high-T female (XX person with ovaries) only has about 25% the testosterone concentration of a very low end male (XY with testicles).
    It’s like the “overlap” between a tall adult human and a “short” adult giraffe. Now have them compete to grab the highest Branch.

    Ultimately the relevant question is:

    Should we even bother with having specially protected classes of competition at any age level? (Such as a women’s category)

    If the answer is “yes” and you would like there to be a competition class protected and exclusive only to a subset of society (females, for example) then there’s no athletically meaningful boundary for the category “female” which permits participating XY people with male T levels. Either exclude those people or dismiss with the protected (women’s) category of competition and have one open field.
    Last edited by LTownZag; 04-02-2020 at 02:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogozags View Post
    I know very little about Transgenders...I remember reading about a young lady, who was a natural anatomical female and was extremely proficient in running. She was not a normal female as she had naturally high levels to testosterone and she was not being allowed to run in international competition. I do not know the percentage of females that are born with such high levels of testosterone but they must be far and few between, let alone with the potential to be world class athletes.

    IMO they are born females and as such should be allowed to compete with other females...One could easily say that "GOD" blessed her in this fashion! Is she unusual, YES but she is still a female and that should be enough to compete as it is no fault of hers how she was born...Michael Jordan, who many would argue is the best basketball player of all time but he was not normal...he could jump over 15' and stay airborne long enough to dunk the ball from the free-throw line...we all just say he sure was gifted so now there is this female who is gifted and many are saying she should compete with males!!!
    This is actually a very intelligent and well articulated view. The only thing I'd say, and this is coming from a person who wholeheartedly agrees with your conclusion, is that the proper language in polite discussion is to call them "transgendered people" rather than "transgenders." I realize that "transgenders" is in a sense proper shorthand use for a noun, but calling someone "a transgender" or a group "transgenders" would not be well received and would undermine your otherwise intelligent and perceptive view on the issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB4 View Post
    This is actually a very intelligent and well articulated view. The only thing I'd say, and this is coming from a person who wholeheartedly agrees with your conclusion, is that the proper language in polite discussion is to call them "transgendered people" rather than "transgenders." I realize that "transgenders" is in a sense proper shorthand use for a noun, but calling someone "a transgender" or a group "transgenders" would not be well received and would undermine your otherwise intelligent and perceptive view on the issue.
    How do you think "female" or "born female" should be bounded or defined? Is it what your parents raised you to think of yourself as? What your body appears subjectively most similar to from the outside? Or your chromosomes, gonads, and the the sex hormones you produce or produced during puberty? I'm genuinely curious what thing those who support trans women competing against biologicial women would like the NCAA or the IOC to use as the parameters around the category of "female".

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    Quote Originally Posted by LTownZag View Post
    How do you think "female" or "born female" should be bounded or defined? Is it what your parents raised you to think of yourself as? What your body appears subjectively most similar to from the outside? Or your chromosomes, gonads, and the the sex hormones you produce or produced during puberty? I'm genuinely curious what thing those who support trans women competing against biologicial women would like the NCAA or the IOC to use as the parameters around the category of "female".
    I can give you my view on it. But the science complicates it. Here's what the WHO says:

    Humans are born with 46 chromosomes in 23 pairs. The X and Y chromosomes determine a person’s sex. Most women are 46XX and most men are 46XY. Research suggests, however, that in a few births per thousand some individuals will be born with a single sex chromosome (45X or 45Y) (sex monosomies) and some with three or more sex chromosomes (47XXX, 47XYY or 47XXY, etc.) (sex polysomies). In addition, some males are born 46XX due to the translocation of a tiny section of the sex determining region of the Y chromosome. Similarly some females are also born 46XY due to mutations in the Y chromosome. Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex.

    The biological differences between men and women result from two processes: sex determination and differentiation.(3) The biological process of sex determination controls whether the male or female sexual differentiation pathway will be followed. The process of biological sex differentiation (development of a given sex) involves many genetically regulated, hierarchical developmental steps. More than 95% of the Y chromosome is male-specific (4) and a single copy of the Y chromosome is able to induce testicular differentiation of the embryonic gonad. The Y chromosome acts as a dominant inducer of male phenotype and individuals having four X chromosomes and one Y chromosome (49XXXXY) are phenotypically male. (5) When a Y chromosome is present, early embryonic testes develop around the 10th week of pregnancy. In the absence of both a Y chromosome and the influence of a testis-determining factor (TDF), ovaries develop.


    https://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

    I don't quite understand all of this. But I think they need to come up with some categorical way of determining which chromosome types require you to compete in the "male" division and which chromosome combination requires you to compete in the "female" division. Simple as that, but maybe not. Either way, if you're born a male with the XY chromosome (what transgender advocates refer to as "assigned male gender at birth") my view (and it shouldn't be controversial, but it is) is that you must compete in the "male" division, no exceptions.

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    Ladies and Gentlemen,

    Thank you for (mostly) staying on a very highly controversial topic and generally speaking being very civil. Politics has no place on this board, there are lots of other boards you can post about politics to your hearts content.

    As the uncle of a transgendered person (niece going to nephew), the topic has some interest to me.

    Airborne, thanks for touching on the legal aspect of the topic. LTownZag, thanks for posting the article from Lets Run. While I watch a lot of women's sports including a fair amount of Track and Field, all I had heard about Caster Semenya was the high testosterone levels. I know that several sport governing agencies had talked about genetic testing her, but she had strongly opposed such testing (nobody else had to do it, why her?). This paragraph in the Let's Run article was all new news to me:

    "Some people — intersex people — have traits of both sexes. Semenya isn’t male, but in addition to Y chromosomes, she is believed to have internal testes and lack a womb or ovaries — characteristics we don’t traditionally associate with females."

    We have to realize and be willing to accept, that there is no one solution that will be 100% fair to everybody involved.

    According to the Let's Run article, "if you limit the term intersex to its traditional meaning — to refer either to individuals who have XY chromosomes with predominantly female anatomy, XX chromosomes with predominantly male anatomy, or ambiguous or mixed genitalia, then the rate of intersex births is just .018% — less than two out of every 10,000 people."

    I think the IAAF got it right in this case. They set a testosterone limit that is 7.5 times the average female testosterone level. The IAAF has not banned Caster Semenya from running, she can run in any of the male events (with whom she has similar testosterone levels) or she can medically reduce her natural testosterone levels to those which are still 7.5 times higher than the average woman.

    Perfect, absolutely not, but given what is at stake and the extremely low percentage of birth intersex individuals, I think the IAAF did a pretty good job overall in this case, by giving Caster Semenya two different methods to compete and still protect women's sports.

    ZagDad

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagDad84 View Post
    Ladies and Gentlemen,

    Thank you for (mostly) staying on a very highly controversial topic and generally speaking being very civil. Politics has no place on this board, there are lots of other boards you can post about politics to your hearts content.

    As the uncle of a transgendered person (niece going to nephew), the topic has some interest to me.

    Airborne, thanks for touching on the legal aspect of the topic. LTownZag, thanks for posting the article from Lets Run. While I watch a lot of women's sports including a fair amount of Track and Field, all I had heard about Caster Semenya was the high testosterone levels. I know that several sport governing agencies had talked about genetic testing her, but she had strongly opposed such testing (nobody else had to do it, why her?). This paragraph in the Let's Run article was all new news to me:

    "Some people — intersex people — have traits of both sexes. Semenya isn’t male, but in addition to Y chromosomes, she is believed to have internal testes and lack a womb or ovaries — characteristics we don’t traditionally associate with females."

    We have to realize and be willing to accept, that there is no one solution that will be 100% fair to everybody involved.

    According to the Let's Run article, "if you limit the term intersex to its traditional meaning — to refer either to individuals who have XY chromosomes with predominantly female anatomy, XX chromosomes with predominantly male anatomy, or ambiguous or mixed genitalia, then the rate of intersex births is just .018% — less than two out of every 10,000 people."

    I think the IAAF got it right in this case. They set a testosterone limit that is 7.5 times the average female testosterone level. The IAAF has not banned Caster Semenya from running, she can run in any of the male events (with whom she has similar testosterone levels) or she can medically reduce her natural testosterone levels to those which are still 7.5 times higher than the average woman.

    Perfect, absolutely not, but given what is at stake and the extremely low percentage of birth intersex individuals, I think the IAAF did a pretty good job overall in this case, by giving Caster Semenya two different methods to compete and still protect women's sports.

    ZagDad
    Zagdade84 - Great post. I too have very much appreciated the civility.

    I honestly can't think of any category system that would be "fair" to Semenya, or the 2-in-10,000 people born with her condition. She is not at fault and I feel bad for her. I just feel like letting her compete vs biological women in unfair to the 5,000-in-10,000 potential competitors (XX women) who are going to lose.

    My better half has a doctorate in human anatomy, and saw this video out of the corner of her eye and immediately suggested due to pelvic fusion, lack of hip swing, and upright torso that the 3 winning runners were not biological xx females.

    In fact, it has been revealed that all 3 medalists are not XX females.


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    Quote Originally Posted by CB4 View Post
    This is actually a very intelligent and well articulated view. The only thing I'd say, and this is coming from a person who wholeheartedly agrees with your conclusion, is that the proper language in polite discussion is to call them "transgendered people" rather than "transgenders." I realize that "transgenders" is in a sense proper shorthand use for a noun, but calling someone "a transgender" or a group "transgenders" would not be well received and would undermine your otherwise intelligent and perceptive view on the issue.
    Thank you for sharing the correct way of grouping these individuals...I shall remember this in the future...

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