Well... It Happened

[SkipZag]

For the last few years I have talked about the WCC and the rough play being allowed. I think CLF calls it the “grind”. I call it what it is... physically out of control play. And the picture in the Review is a perfect example of a player out of control running over another player from behind.

I said players were going to get badly hurt, as they did last year, if the conference didn’t get a handle on it. And it happened. Folks, these long term injuries that can hopefully be lessened if the WCC, ADs, coaches and officials come together and get the game back to how it was meant to be played. And yes the teams will be better when doing so. As someone who has been in the sports world all his life, I can tell you there is a right way and a wrong way. Wrong way gets people hurt.

We all hope that Katie is able to recover from this. We are thinking of you.

The Zag Family is strong and like Jill, will get back in the saddle and finish strong.

Go Zags!!

[Fonebone]

It did not look to me that the injury was caused by excessive roughness on the part of the NYU player.


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[SkipZag]

I have had coaches say never give an easy layup... make them earn it at the line. It you chase a play down from behind instead of being taught to run by... then chances are you are going to foul. Hence a chance of injury. I doubt she meant to hurt her... but it’s the way you were taught to play the game. I have seen GU women run by many times.

[kyle dixon]

[QUOTE=SkipZag;1501664]For the last few years I have talked about the WCC and the rough play being allowed. I think CLF calls it the “grind”. I call it what it is... physically out of control play. And the picture in the Review is a perfect example of a player out of control running over another player from behind.

I said players were going to get badly hurt, as they did last year, if the conference didn’t get a handle on it. And it happened. Folks, these long term injuries that can hopefully be lessened if the WCC, ADs, coaches and officials come together and get the game back to how it was meant to be played. And yes the teams will be better when doing so. As someone who has been in the sports world all his life, I can tell you there is a right way and a wrong way. Wrong way gets people hurt.

We all hope that Katie is able to recover from this. We are thinking of you.

The Zag Family is strong and like Jill, will get back in the saddle and finish strong.

Go Zags!![/QUOTE

Great team win. Sorry to see Campbell get hurt. Prayers for a healthy recovery.

I did not see the replay of the injury. In real time it appears that Katie pulled up in order to not have her shot checked. It did not appear to be a malicious foul or if a flagrant nature or the refs would have went to monitor.

Again, I hope Campbell is okay.

[SkipZag]

You are right Kyle... she did pull up and that is when she got ran over. If you are chasing from behind, contact will happen. If the player was under control... if she would have run to the side, maybe she would not have run her over. Again how you are taught.
And yes it was an accident... maybe avoidable.

[sylean]

If she was behind her and fouled her hard it begs the question was that a flagrant foul?

[sittingon50]

Looked to me like Katie tried to do a jump stop (presumably to let the defense fly by) and injured her knee before any contact was made. She immediately clutched at it.


And I'm sorry, but IMO there is some cherry picking goin' on here. Injuries caused by rough play? Yeah, but I seem to remember about 15 years ago that during pregame introductions a GU woman starter was being introduced, ran out to chest bump her teammate & blew out her knee.


Women athletes & injured knees are an epidemic. It sucks.

[Section 116]

50, I kinda recall that was Ashley Burke? I couldn't believe it, in pregame introductions. I believe after that incident, that was the end of the "chest bump!"

[ZagDad84]

Looked to me like Katie tried to do a jump stop (presumably to let the defense fly by) and injured her knee before any contact was made. She immediately clutched at it.

And I'm sorry, but IMO there is some cherry picking goin' on here.

I fully agree with both parts of Sittingon50's post.

First, his description of the sequence of events on how KC's knee injury occurred is exactly the same way I saw the play. I think the injury occurred before any contact with the BYU Player (#11 - Kaylee Smiler).

yes it was an accident... maybe avoidable.

Yes, it was avoidable by both KC and Kaylee Smiler. You seem to blame Smiler for causing contact by running up the back of KC. Even if you believe the contact with the BYU player was the cause of the injury, KC could have avoided the contact simply by continuing the lay-up and not doing the jump stop. Sure the shot likely would have been blocked but there likely would have been no knee injury and KC likely would have been on the free throw line. By stopping KC knew that the BYU player was either going to fly by and KC was going to get a lay-up or KC was going to get fouled, both are victories to KC. Both players could have done something to avoid the contact and the subsequent injury, neither did. It was an accident, a horrible accident to be sure with potential serious ramifications to KC, but it was just an accident.

Except for some extreme "homers" on this board, it appears that most everybody else agrees that there was no intent or maliciousness meant by the BYU player. I really think you are doing the young ladies on both sides of the game a disservice by blaming KC's injury on "rough play". Whether the injury occurred before or after the contact, the play was a standard basketball play and excessive rough play had little to nothing to do with the injury.

I also agree with 50's cherry picking comment. Skip did you totally overlook the S-R picture of JW pulling Sara Hamson over on her back or LW pulling Moody over. These are examples of truly "rough" play, but do the Zag fans feel they are acceptable because the Wirths got "ball"? You can't simply point out the opponents use of physicality and ignore the physicality of our own Lady Zags. We even have one poster blaming JT's bloody nose on contact with a BYU player with it was a Wirth elbow that caused the damage.

Yes the game yesterday, particularly in the key, was very physical. At times the key resembled a rugby pit. Moody and Salmon using their mass to simply move the Wirths and MK out of the key. MK and JT literally throwing themselves backwards into Moody and Salmon trying to establish position in the key. Both are fouls. I would have had no problem if both were called or as was the case yesterday, both were not called.

To be fair to the referees, with all of the traditional BYU flopping that goes on, it is very difficult to determine if their was or was not a foul committed. Almost every time Johnson got near the key, she ended up on the ground, no matter if there was a Lady Zag around her or not. I think for the most part the refs did not reward most of the BYU flopping but the Moody flop did get rewarded. Moody squatting trying to get a loose ball, a Truong is running up from behind to try and tie up the ball. Moody throws her arm back hitting Truong in the chest and then flops forward. The refs call Truong for the foul. CLF gave the official "hell" for quite some time after the foul and according to her halftime interview, he saw the replay and admitted he missed the initial foul on Truong. How he could ever expect that Truong could have knocked over Moody who outweighs her by a 100% is still unknown.

Skip, I wish the refs would limit the physicality occurring in the key, but I have given up expecting any help in this area. If the officials call it somewhat even, unfortunately, I think this is all we can hope for. However, I think the KC injury had nothing to do with rough play, but was IMO a simple, horrible accident.

Get better Katie, we will keep you in our prayers. Hoping for good news on your knee this week.

ZagDad

[ZagDad84]

I have had coaches say never give an easy layup... make them earn it at the line. It you chase a play down from behind instead of being taught to run by... then chances are you are going to foul. Hence a chance of injury. I doubt she meant to hurt her... but it’s the way you were taught to play the game. I have seen GU women run by many times.

There are three options on most lay-ups.

- Let them have the lay-up either uncontested or try to hound them into missing but no foul.
- Foul them and make them hit the free throws. Yesterday BYU shot 58.3% and GU shot 61.5% on Free Throws. A guaranteed 2 points or free throws, easy to see why they foul.
- The obviously worst option, a soft foul which allows them to make the shot and then a plus one.

Very easy to see, why the foul them option is typically used as it usually results in fewer points being scored by the fouled team.

ZagDad

[upan8th]

Replay of the incident shows the precise moment of the injury occurred just before the contact with the two BYU players. The extent of the injury could very well been compounded by the weight of both Smiler and the other BYU girl crashing down on her. Katie had been picking the pockets of the Cougar's guards the whole game. Can only speculate whether the hard contact was associated with that. It's basketball. People get hurt playing the game. If Katie cannot return, we and she can take some comfort knowing she had a helluva year. Mighty mouse came, saw, and conquered.

[upan8th]

Need to amend that post. Only Smiler fell atop Katie. Was so horrifying I convinced myself two opponents had fallen on her.

[SkipZag]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts... that’s what this board is about., open discussion.

I don’t need or want to blame any player... period. My focus has always been the women’s game becoming the contact sport of the men’s side. And to me, it not only gets kids hurt but takes away from what the game was. And that wasn’t a thug fest or what I think ZD called it... a scrum under the basket. As some have said: it’s going to be hard to change. Sad but maybe true.

In my trade, safety was top priority... and we new that the odds of someone getting hurt would be greater if we let poor habits continue without being checked. That’s all I’m saying here. Keep up the unchecked bad play and the odds of another player getting hurt continues.

For thoughs who say it’s part of the game that players get hurt... you are right. But clean up the game and maybe fewer season ending injuries and maybe a better cleaner game.

Cheers...

Go Zags!!

[ZagDad84]

In my trade, safety was top priority... and we new that the odds of someone getting hurt would be greater if we let poor habits continue without being checked. That’s all I’m saying here. Keep up the unchecked bad play and the odds of another player getting hurt continues.

Skip,

I watch a lot, and I mean a lot (as if you could not tell) of women's sports of all kinds (great win by Sophia Kenin at the Aussie Open on Saturday). Typically I love watching women's collegiate sports (Wbb, Gymnastics, softball, etc.) more so than professional sports.

In support of your comment above, the play in the key yesterday between BYU and GU, was as rough or rougher than in any D-1 NCAA Wbb game I have seen all year. I also agree that the rough play continues because the WCC refs continue to allow that type of play. I am currently watching the Rutgers-Minnesota Wbb game and if the refs in that game were calling the GU-BYU game, every starter on both teams would have fouled out by halftime. Hand checks are called. Stick a knee out to impede the path of guard, yep a foul. None of the physicality in establishing position in the key is tolerated, does not matter if it is arms or knee pushing from behind or the use of the gluteus maximus or shoulders used as a battering ram pushing from the front, both are fouls and are fouls that are called.

In the past I have likened the quality of the Wbb, WCC refs to very poor high school officials, but I am not sure if they are really that good (maybe I am being rude to the HS refs). To make any change, I feel that it is going to have to come from the coach's, and AD's complaining to the conference about the officiating and demanding changes be made. Unfortunately, I don't know if the coach's and AD's are in agreement about the officiating.

Thanks for thread, Skip.

ZagDad

[HRZag]

I watched the injury live (on the computer) and the replay. Her knee buckled as she jump-stopped and tried to go right. There was no contact before the knee gave way. She clenched the knee on her way down to the floor and only then was there some contact.

That is my humble opinion. That is what I saw. It is an all too common injury in women's sports.

[CG3Dad]

First off tremendously sorry about KCs injury. Been following her since her and Chels were playing against each other in middle school.

Jasmine Jones went down in the very first play of the game and came back on crutches. Not sure what's going on?

Wishing both ladies a speedy recovery.


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[OldGoatZagFan]

Katie's injury happened right in front of me...coming directly at us. She was going full speed and tried to "brake" hard. I instantly thought ACL injury based on the mechanism of injury...hope I'm wrong and it's just MCL. Like HRZag said, it is an all too common injury in women's sports!

I do think that historically, the BYU/GU and SMC/GU games are very physical. Zag fans are a little sensitive because Jill got injured last year against them too. But there is no need to badger the opposing players...as a fan or two did in the NE corner. JT even gestured at the fan to stop! Fans need to be as classy as the team!

Go Zags!!

[pony]

The replay that I saw on video looked like her knee gave out after a quick stop and not from being run over.

[upan8th]

That is what happened. Think everyone can agree. Her sudden slowing after the injury compounded the contact w/the BYU girl trailing the play. When Katie went down there was nowhere BYU's Smiley could go and she fell atop Katie. All agreed, then, I motion we put an end to this thread. Second? Can I get a second? Good. Thank you, GC3Dad. All in favor say aye. Thank you. Motion carried. We're adjourned.

[SkipZag]

UP... Had to read your post a few times.
So are you saying that the BYU player running over Katie was because Katie stopped? If so, you made my point... Katie had the right to stop... she had the ball. It was the out of control BYU player that ran her over. Hence a foul and her landing on Katie.
Please don’t soften what it was... Whether Katie hurt her self or the contact... it’s still over aggressive play and the WCC is known for it. If you don’t think so, Watch the game and tell me what you see in paint.

And if you are tired of this thread ... maybe time to move on.

Go Zags!!

[ZagDad84]

Skip,

As I said above, I agree that the play in the paint in the WCC (Wbb particularly) seems to be much more aggressive and physical than even in the P-5 conferences.

However, contrary to some of the posters on this board, at the slipper still fits and on the social media platforms, the lady zags are certainly not immune to hard, aggressive play. On this thread we talk about KC and her injury, but take a look at the "Defense Matters" highlight video on the WBB twitter page. Sarah Hamson gets pulled over backwards by LW straight onto her back. Paige Johnson (BYU) gets knocked to the ground on three, separate occasions, very similar to what happened to Katie, except she did not jump stop. On one occasion, MK, attempting a steal, slipped and took out her legs, resulting in three players on the floor. In another occasion, LW cleanly blocked the shot but clearly made contact from behind and knocked Johnson over and out of bounds. On the third occasion MK cleaning blocked Johnson's shot from the front but made contact with the hips knocking her over and out of bounds. Just because KC was injured on her play and the BYU players were not does not justify the physicality on either side.

It appears that the WCC Wbb refs call the game as if you get clean contact with the ball, no other contact (on the arms, on the lower body, etc.) matters whether or not you had to go through the person to get to the ball. In the same video look at all the steals KC got on BYU. How many times did she put her arm across the BYU player's body to get to the ball. Sometimes it was clean, other times she impeded the BYU player and should have been called, but she got the ball cleanly, so in the eyes of the refs, no foul.

We can't complain about physical play in the WCC without at least acknowledging that the team we support is as physical as any of the teams in the WCC.

As is the matter of course in any sport, the players on the court/field/pitch are going to adjust their game, to the level of physicality permitted by the refs. If the schools want the level of physicality to be reduced, they are going to have to get the WCC to train the refs on how to officiate the game accordingly.

Twitter Link to the "Defense Matters" highlight video: https://twitter.com/ZagWBB

ZagDad

[SkipZag]

ZD...Couldn’t agree with you more.

You are right about the Lady Zags... they play hard in the WCC. They have to to survive. But I don’t see the cheap play from them that I see from some of the others. It’s what is coached and accepted. The GU Ladies are not afraid of putting a body on someone but that’s the way the game has gone. I did see LW and JW on the block of SH. I just hope some changes happen before others are hurt.

Go Zags!!

People need to watch the movie Hoosiers to see the game of basketball.

[jbslicer]

I watched the injury live (on the computer) and the replay. Her knee buckled as she jump-stopped and tried to go right. There was no contact before the knee gave way. She clenched the knee on her way down to the floor and only then was there some contact.

That is my humble opinion. That is what I saw. It is an all too common injury in women's sports.

That is what I saw too.

[Bigfooot]

ZD the only problem I see with what you said was about Paisley Johnson and our bigs with the blocks. Both blocks by LW and MK Johnson ended up on the ground like you said. The problem I see is she always ends up on the ground when she goes to the hole, to try and get an and 1. If looks like to me that the refs have caught on to this and no longer give her those fouls, unless it an obvious fouls. And I don’t believe either of those blocks are obvious. That’s a 50/50 call in any league as to whether that’s a fouls. I would think not. But I am biased.


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[ZagDad84]

ZD the only problem I see with what you said was about Paisley Johnson and our bigs with the blocks. Both blocks by LW and MK Johnson ended up on the ground like you said. The problem I see is she always ends up on the ground when she goes to the hole, to try and get an and 1. If looks like to me that the refs have caught on to this and no longer give her those fouls, unless it an obvious fouls. And I don’t believe either of those blocks are obvious. That’s a 50/50 call in any league as to whether that’s a fouls. I would think not. But I am biased.


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You are exactly right about Johnson, and I said as such earlier in this thread. I also agree that the refs have caught on to her act and she not only does not get the flop calls but she also does not get the legitimate foul calls either. She made her bed, she gets to lie in it.

I just mentioned the calls on Johnson to validate my point that the lady zags play as physical as any team in the league. They are not going to be pushed around. Hamson and Moody being pulled over backwards, the lower body contact on Johnson by several different players, was just to illustrate my point.

The above being said, Pacific played much less physical and in return the Lady Zags also played much less physical than they did against BYU. I don't think the Lady Zags typically start the extreme physical play that we have seen at times (maybe a homer view), but I think if a team wants to try and push the Lady Zags around, the Lady Zags are more than glad to meet them in the middle of the ring. If a team elects to play a cleaner, more skillful game, the Lady Zags can play that game as well.

ZagDad