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Thread: When will the ESPN guys learn?

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    Default When will the ESPN guys learn?

    https://www.espn.com/mens-college-ba...d-major-anyway

    Gonzaga just hosted the #10 player in the 2020 class and the #2 player in the 2021 class for their Kraziness In The Kennel event. The other two guys who visited were top 65 guys in the 2020 class who have already committed to GU. This is according to 247 Sports, the most reliable recruiting source on the internet. Gonzaga annually spends more money on their basketball program than any Pac 12 program besides Arizona. That includes the Nike rich Oregon and UCLA (although that may change with Cronin now in charge. We will see).

    All of this info is free on the internet for all to see.

    What bothers me so much about this article is that I am not coming from a position of arrogance on this. I just want to see programs like St. Mary's, Harvard, Loyola Chicago, etc., get their just due. They are not playing with the same hand as Gonzaga is. Their facilities, their recruiting, etc., is just not the same. The only thing that is similar is that Randy Bennett keeps sticking around Moraga, although he has not received the tempting offers that Mark Few has to coach blue blood schools.

    By definition, any school that is able to host two top 10 recruits is not a mid major program. Most power conference programs cannot get officials from players like Jalen Suggs and Chet Holmgren. You can define it all you want, but the major/mid major distinction ultimately comes down to resources and recruiting. It has nothing to do with conference affiliation. If you wish to make it about conference affiliation, you need to mention in every sentence that GU is in a class of its own in terms of its resources and its ability to land the kinds of players that could lead them to five straight sweet 16's or better. Otherwise it's not fair to the teams in conferences like they are a part of. Even though one author in this ESPN article acknowledges GU's resources, I still feel that these writers still don't understand that Gonzaga is spending more bread on its men's basketball team, and is taking in more bread from it's men's basketball team, than 95% of all BCS teams despite the fact that those BCS teams have football.

    Gonzaga is a historical anomaly. There has never a program like them. Esteemed writers like Mike Decourcy from TSN and Andy Katz from the NCAA understood this ages ago, but we still have far too many people that just don't get it. GU has redefined the rules of what a major and mid major program is. And it's largely because you don't need as many GREAT players to field a GREAT basketball team as you do a GREAT football team. And yet people keep using football analogies in reference to GU.

    I honestly believe that 100+ head coaches have been fired in the past 15 years from genuine mid major basketball programs due to ignorant athletic directors who do not realize just how much Gonzaga is spending on its men's team and how much they are taking in. Plus all the advantages they have with their ESPN TV contact (and I don't wish to sound arrogant, but that contract would not exist if it were not for Gonzaga). These ignorant AD's do not get that GU is playing with a different deck of cards. It is pathetic and sad. Many great coaches have been canned as a result.

    I have seen GU's program progress from a low major to a mid major to a high major. I have a unique perspective of seeing what each one of those steps means and what they involve. These east coast writers who primarily follow North Carolina and Kentucky have only seen programs that were dominant in their youth and are dominant now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CDC84 View Post
    https://www.espn.com/mens-college-ba...d-major-anyway

    Gonzaga just hosted the #10 player in the 2020 class and the #2 player in the 2021 class for their Kraziness In The Kennel event. The other two guys who visited were top 65 guys in the 2020 class who have already committed to GU. This is according to 247 Sports, the most reliable recruiting source on the internet. Gonzaga annually spends more money on their basketball program than any Pac 12 program besides Arizona. That includes the Nike rich Oregon and UCLA (although that may change with Cronin now in charge. We will see).

    All of this info is free on the internet for all to see.

    What bothers me so much about this article is that I am not coming from a position of arrogance on this. I just want to see programs like St. Mary's, Harvard, Loyola Chicago, etc., get their just due. They are not playing with the same hand as Gonzaga is. Their facilities, their recruiting, etc., is just not the same. The only thing that is similar is that Randy Bennett keeps sticking around Moraga, although he has not received the tempting offers that Mark Few has to coach blue blood schools.

    By definition, any school that is able to host two top 10 recruits is not a mid major program. Most power conference programs cannot get officials from players like Jalen Suggs and Chet Holmgren. You can define it all you want, but the major/mid major distinction ultimately comes down to resources and recruiting. It has nothing to do with conference affiliation. If you wish to make it about conference affiliation, you need to mention in every sentence that GU is in a class of its own in terms of its resources and its ability to land the kinds of players that could lead them to five straight sweet 16's or better. Otherwise it's not fair to the teams in conferences like they are a part of. Even though one author in this ESPN article acknowledges GU's resources, I still feel that these writers still don't understand that Gonzaga is spending more bread on its men's basketball team, and is taking in more bread from it's men's basketball team, than 95% of all BCS teams despite the fact that those BCS teams have football.

    Gonzaga is a historical anomaly. There has never a program like them. Esteemed writers like Mike Decourcy from TSN and Andy Katz from the NCAA understood this ages ago, but we still have far too many people that just don't get it. GU has redefined the rules of what a major and mid major program is. And it's largely because you don't need as many GREAT players to field a GREAT basketball team as you do a GREAT football team. And yet people keep using football analogies in reference to GU.

    I honestly believe that 100+ head coaches have been fired in the past 15 years from genuine mid major basketball programs due to ignorant athletic directors who do not realize just how much Gonzaga is spending on its men's team and how much they are taking in. Plus all the advantages they have with their ESPN TV contact (and I don't wish to sound arrogant, but that contract would not exist if it were not for Gonzaga). These ignorant AD's do not get that GU is playing with a different deck of cards. It is pathetic and sad. Many great coaches have been canned as a result.

    I have seen GU's program progress from a low major to a mid major to a high major. I have a unique perspective of seeing what each one of those steps means and what they involve. These east coast writers who primarily follow North Carolina and Kentucky have only seen programs that were dominant in their youth and are dominant now.
    that's quite the rant. all because we didn't get a specific call-out that we're a high major program in a mid-major conference? seems like a (mod-)major overreaction to me, as those same names have been incredibly complimentary of us in the past.

    gasaway: "... a program that was once a mid-major. No one thinks of the Zags as a mid-major program any more."
    borzello: "Gonzaga is a top-10 team nationally." (from the linked article)
    medcalf has predicted us to win the national championship 2 of the last 4 years-- 2017 and 2019.

    this really isn't a disrespect thing. this is a "we're going to logically classify conferences and then talk about the teams in those conferences"-thing, and they simply left out the standard clause that we are the exception when it comes to resources, recruits, success, and longevity. that's ok; it wasn't important to the purpose of the exercise (which was to talk about the conferences) and they had a lot of ground to cover.

    we're well past the point of being able to legitimately gripe about the respect we get nationally, outside of silly stuff like regional radio personalities, imo. i'm sure you can find counter-examples, if you look-- but it's pretty well drowned out by things like the gasaway article i linked above and the recent excellent piece in the athletic.

    you can let go of some of that angst now.

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    I've been watching college basketball since Kareem's name was Lew. That's a lot of college basketball. There's no way I would consider the Zags a mid-major team anymore. If the ESPN guys think they are, they clearly have their heads up their butts.

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    High major in a mid major conference. I used to shag balls for Frank Burgess.meanwhile I like CDCs
    Response on this. Wasn’t a rant as much as reclarifying facts.

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    From a conference perspective, where would the WCC rank? I could see it behind the A-10, MVC, and maybe MWC.
    'I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay… small acts of kindness and love.'
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    So as ESPN is doing their season previews of each major conference, and then of all the mid major conferences, of which the WCC is one, they should not talk about GU with the WCC, but should have a separate piece all together talking about high major teams in mid major conferences where they only sing GU's praises.
    Or we could just quit getting our little feelers hurt and realize it's not a slight and GU actually does play in a mid major conference and it makes sense to talk about them in this article.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soccerdud View Post
    that's quite the rant. all because we didn't get a specific call-out that we're a high major program in a mid-major conference? seems like a (mod-)major overreaction to me, as those same names have been incredibly complimentary of us in the past.

    gasaway: "... a program that was once a mid-major. No one thinks of the Zags as a mid-major program any more."
    borzello: "Gonzaga is a top-10 team nationally." (from the linked article)
    medcalf has predicted us to win the national championship 2 of the last 4 years-- 2017 and 2019.

    this really isn't a disrespect thing. this is a "we're going to logically classify conferences and then talk about the teams in those conferences"-thing, and they simply left out the standard clause that we are the exception when it comes to resources, recruits, success, and longevity. that's ok; it wasn't important to the purpose of the exercise (which was to talk about the conferences) and they had a lot of ground to cover.

    we're well past the point of being able to legitimately gripe about the respect we get nationally, outside of silly stuff like regional radio personalities, imo. i'm sure you can find counter-examples, if you look-- but it's pretty well drowned out by things like the gasaway article i linked above and the recent excellent piece in the athletic.

    you can let go of some of that angst now.
    Respectfully, I disagree. It is about respect. On some levels, it's always been about respect. Perkins doesn't get the block means Mathews can't make the shot to lift us over WVU (and eventually into the Final Four) and we are having the same conversations we had prior to 2017... "Gonzaga is good, but can't break through."

    The atmosphere at the Final Four in 2017 was pure release and euphoria. We broke that weak narrative's back. And we will break this one, too.

    The fact is, we have been knocking on the door for a long time. Climbing the staircase. Sawing wood. And recently, the Zags have been recruiting at an elite level. Things aren't the same as they were even 4 years ago. High level recruits look at us as perennial third weekend NCAA contenders.

    Calling out lazy reporting doesn't equate to angst, necessarily. The game in Spokane has changed. Astute reporters recognize this -- they see the longer view of our program. Some just haven't done their homework, and will require the Zags to win it all before they can admit we're not just "that team that pads it's win percentage in a weak conference." Unquestionably, there is a heavy biased towards the encumbants and the traditional powers.

    And if we are able to climb that final rung (should we be so fortunate) we will shatter this narrative as well.

    But it will always be about respect. Because it always has been.

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    Everyone loves a winner and Few wins at an 81% clip.

    All the talking points and narratives cannot make that go away.

    In the end, history will be kind to Gonzaga and Mark Few.
    I miss Mike Hart

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    Cool Me Like!

    Kiddwell personally enjoyed the "rant," so-called. It was fun to read, and I found out that GU spends more $$$ on Men's Basketball than any PAC-12 team save Arizona. (Also found out that 247 Sports' recruiting info is very reliable.) That $$$ fact is astoundingly satisfying. Zags basketball is astoundingly satisfying. That the Zags have their season opener in a couple Fridays is astoundingly satisfying.

    Kiddwell feels inspired!


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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityZag View Post
    Respectfully, I disagree. It is about respect. On some levels, it's always been about respect. Perkins doesn't get the block means Mathews can't make the shot to lift us over WVU (and eventually into the Final Four) and we are having the same conversations we had prior to 2017... "Gonzaga is good, but can't break through."

    The atmosphere at the Final Four in 2017 was pure release and euphoria. We broke that weak narrative's back. And we will break this one, too.

    The fact is, we have been knocking on the door for a long time. Climbing the staircase. Sawing wood. And recently, the Zags have been recruiting at an elite level. Things aren't the same as they were even 4 years ago. High level recruits look at us as perennial third weekend NCAA contenders.

    Calling out lazy reporting doesn't equate to angst, necessarily. The game in Spokane has changed. Astute reporters recognize this -- they see the longer view of our program. Some just haven't done their homework, and will require the Zags to win it all before they can admit we're not just "that team that pads it's win percentage in a weak conference." Unquestionably, there is a heavy biased towards the encumbants and the traditional powers.

    And if we are able to climb that final rung (should we be so fortunate) we will shatter this narrative as well.

    But it will always be about respect. Because it always has been.
    again, i showed how each of the authors have explicitly and publicly shown the GU program as much respect as you could ask for. the narrative here is in your head, and you're projecting it onto a piece (and set of pundits/personalities) that were simply having a different conversation than you wanted them to have.

    apparently the gu fan psyche is so damaged, that we've gotten to the point that an ESPN piece whose goal is to cover 7 conferences and had lines saying:
    "The West Coast Conference is probably closest to qualifying for that label, given Gonzaga's status, consistency and resources" (regarding which conf was closest to attaining "major" status-- basically backdooring in the callout CDC was asking for)
    "I still think Gonzaga is a legitimate top-10 team nationally"
    "...capable of reaching the Elite Eight."
    didn't put enough sugar on our name and we feel disrespected. really, guys?

    we have an incredible, fascinating story-- and for that reason i, also, enjoyed reading cdc's "rant". but having a hair-trigger about perceived slights is outdated, imo. those ain't giants, they're windmills.

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    - cdc84 post is fine with me.
    - I think the point to focus on is....if your conference is not the power 5 or the big east, you are in fact a mid major conference. and to cdc84's point if mid major a.d.'s do not understand how and why Gonzaga operates as a 'major' conference team, within a 'mid-major' conference, then I would not be too critical of each and every journalist or editor who does not understand that either.
    - I'd feel more upset for the fired coaches who cannot elevate their teams and organizations to the level of Gonzaga, than a slight of respect that Gonzaga gets for being called a mid major school.
    - as said before, just keep on winning baby, the praise and acknowledgment will keep growing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CDC84 View Post
    https://www.espn.com/mens-college-ba...d-major-anyway

    Gonzaga just hosted the #10 player in the 2020 class and the #2 player in the 2021 class for their Kraziness In The Kennel event. The other two guys who visited were top 65 guys in the 2020 class who have already committed to GU. This is according to 247 Sports, the most reliable recruiting source on the internet. Gonzaga annually spends more money on their basketball program than any Pac 12 program besides Arizona. That includes the Nike rich Oregon and UCLA (although that may change with Cronin now in charge. We will see).

    All of this info is free on the internet for all to see.

    What bothers me so much about this article is that I am not coming from a position of arrogance on this. I just want to see programs like St. Mary's, Harvard, Loyola Chicago, etc., get their just due. They are not playing with the same hand as Gonzaga is. Their facilities, their recruiting, etc., is just not the same. The only thing that is similar is that Randy Bennett keeps sticking around Moraga, although he has not received the tempting offers that Mark Few has to coach blue blood schools.

    By definition, any school that is able to host two top 10 recruits is not a mid major program. Most power conference programs cannot get officials from players like Jalen Suggs and Chet Holmgren. You can define it all you want, but the major/mid major distinction ultimately comes down to resources and recruiting. It has nothing to do with conference affiliation. If you wish to make it about conference affiliation, you need to mention in every sentence that GU is in a class of its own in terms of its resources and its ability to land the kinds of players that could lead them to five straight sweet 16's or better. Otherwise it's not fair to the teams in conferences like they are a part of. Even though one author in this ESPN article acknowledges GU's resources, I still feel that these writers still don't understand that Gonzaga is spending more bread on its men's basketball team, and is taking in more bread from it's men's basketball team, than 95% of all BCS teams despite the fact that those BCS teams have football.

    Gonzaga is a historical anomaly. There has never a program like them. Esteemed writers like Mike Decourcy from TSN and Andy Katz from the NCAA understood this ages ago, but we still have far too many people that just don't get it. GU has redefined the rules of what a major and mid major program is. And it's largely because you don't need as many GREAT players to field a GREAT basketball team as you do a GREAT football team. And yet people keep using football analogies in reference to GU.

    I honestly believe that 100+ head coaches have been fired in the past 15 years from genuine mid major basketball programs due to ignorant athletic directors who do not realize just how much Gonzaga is spending on its men's team and how much they are taking in. Plus all the advantages they have with their ESPN TV contact (and I don't wish to sound arrogant, but that contract would not exist if it were not for Gonzaga). These ignorant AD's do not get that GU is playing with a different deck of cards. It is pathetic and sad. Many great coaches have been canned as a result.

    I have seen GU's program progress from a low major to a mid major to a high major. I have a unique perspective of seeing what each one of those steps means and what they involve. These east coast writers who primarily follow North Carolina and Kentucky have only seen programs that were dominant in their youth and are dominant now.
    We aren't easy to quantify, as we definitely play in a mid-major conference, and your overall point is absolutely correct - compared to the other teams mentioned in this piece, we are playing with a completely different set of resources. It does them a disservice to compare them to the Zags. Especially St Mary's - what Randy Bennett has done with the resources he has is staggering. The fact that they are a perennial top 30 team with a chance every year to make the tournament is impressive. But lumping them in with the Zags isn't right. Most seasons, the floor for the Zags season is around the ceiling for St Mary's.

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    I recall being quite upset when Pluto was downgraded from a planet to a dwarf planet, but in all reality it hasn't diminished its impact and importance to the solar system one bit.
    Likewise, a sematic parsing of the term "mid-major" hasn't stopped Gonzaga's ascent in its quest to be elite. Also, it's grist for the mill that drives Gonzaga basketball.

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    I love ya' CDC but I can't for the life of me figure out why one would complain about that article.

    The article is focused solely upon conferences, not teams. Our conference is a mid major, bc I do buy their argument that a conference must average 2-3 teams in the NCAA every year, and have more than one team a candidate to make the S16.

    Additionally, two of them said that the WCC is the closest of all of them to "High Major" status. That is a huge compliment since we're the ones leading the way, and it had five top 100 teams last year.

    I don't understand the consternation. Maybe it used to be an issue, but this article was just so clearly referencing conferences, and not select teams, that I don't understand.

    Had they simply being discussing specific programs, I think they'd put us right where we belong.

    If one wants to find a slight, perhaps picking Ford over Tillie as the WCC POY is perhaps a better one. If Tillie is healthy, I don't see a player in the conference worth trading him for, and I mean no disrespect to Ford, great guy and player.
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    My only two issues in the article is how they all seem to underestimate Tillie and our ceiling this year. One of them said Tillie is one of the best players in the league, but I would argue that sells him short because he is one of the best players in the country. They also all seem to think our ceiling is around the E8. If everything bounces our way, I think the FF4 is very possible. It may be unlikely, but still possible. Of course Tillie's ranking and the teams ceiling all depends on his health, which is kinda scary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zagssuperfan View Post
    My only two issues in the article is how they all seem to underestimate Tillie and our ceiling this year. One of them said Tillie is one of the best players in the league, but I would argue that sells him short because he is one of the best players in the country. They also all seem to think our ceiling is around the E8. If everything bounces our way, I think the FF4 is very possible. It may be unlikely, but still possible. Of course Tillie's ranking and the teams ceiling all depends on his health, which is kinda scary.
    Tillie is fine btw ..... expect him to be 100 percent when they tip it off for real in a couple of weeks. Not sure what'll happen tomorrow with the Spartans .... but the kid IS healthy .... and much better since the minor maintenance that was performed awhile back.

    "To be continued ....."
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoZags View Post
    Tillie is fine btw ..... expect him to be 100 percent when they tip it off for real in a couple of weeks. Not sure what'll happen tomorrow with the Spartans .... but the kid IS healthy .... and much better since the minor maintenance that was performed awhile back.
    thanks GZ...GREAT NEWS!

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    Quote Originally Posted by zagssuperfan View Post
    My only two issues in the article is how they all seem to underestimate Tillie and our ceiling this year. One of them said Tillie is one of the best players in the league, but I would argue that sells him short because he is one of the best players in the country. They also all seem to think our ceiling is around the E8. If everything bounces our way, I think the FF4 is very possible. It may be unlikely, but still possible. Of course Tillie's ranking and the teams ceiling all depends on his health, which is kinda scary.
    Tillie is without question a super talented player with an untapped upside.
    I think we all have a little bit of anxiety going into this year because of the unknown. However lets not forget Mark Few and the staff, these guys have been blending redshirts ,transfers & players who's first language isn't English together better than great minestrone soup. It takes a great chef to constantly make a quality product when the ingredients are always diffrent. The Gonzaga staff has a wounderful ability to make it work! Infact they have been making it work with diffrent odds and ends for quite some time now. The Zags have figured out a way to turn all those crazy diffrent parts in to a sustainable product year after year!
    Some people just can't figure out how a small Jesuit school from Spokane Washington with the "awe shucks " coach can continue to be so good.
    Its not until they look at his record and realize he is going to be a hall of fame coach that they start to put 2 & 2 together.
    Gonzaga basketball is a unicorn! Its really not supposed to exist, some in the media just don't know what to say when they refer to Gonzaga ( most have figured it out). Most of us Gonzaga fans have a little chip on our shoulder because eventhough we get the respect now, we didn't for years! All I know it's dam good time to be a Zag fan!!!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoZags View Post
    Tillie is fine btw ..... expect him to be 100 percent when they tip it off for real in a couple of weeks. Not sure what'll happen tomorrow with the Spartans .... but the kid IS healthy .... and much better since the minor maintenance that was performed awhile back.
    Healthy or still on the mend, it's best to not play him (IMO), bc he's the last one who needs reps in the system, and coming just out of rehabbing it from the scope, I'd prefer he just continue getting stronger.

    I don't think that getting beat by Michigan State is the worst result here.

    Getting waxed this week might be the perfect scenario. Get them refocused on all that needs to be improved as they head into the last 3 weeks before meaningful games.
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    This is a site that every Zag fan should have bookmarked:

    https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/

    Right here you can find out how much your men's basketball program gains in revenue and how much they spend. Last year GU men's basketball generated $14,723,219 in revenue. More importantly, even though Minnesota generated $17.4 million in revenue, they spent close to a million less on their basketball team than Gonzaga did, proving that just because you generate revenue in basketball (or for that matter, football), it doesn't mean that it all gets put back into the men's basketball team.

    Gonzaga men's basketball revenue in comparison to Pac 12 teams:

    Arizona = $22,830,561
    Gonzaga = $14,723,219
    Oregon = $11,384,188 (yes, Nike U.)
    Washington = $10,226,399
    Utah = $9,754,858
    Colorado = $9,204,900
    Arizona State = $8,622,647
    Cal = $8,085,222
    Stanford = $7,254,493
    Oregon State = $6,950,454
    USC = $5,961,525
    Washington State = $5,756,568
    UCLA = $648,297 (no, it is not an error, look it up. Alford buy out?)

    Yeah, GU cannot compete in the Pac 12 . That's my major issue here. I remember the days when our assistants were sleeping in rental cars on recruiting visits. I have seen Gonzaga's rise from low major, to mid major to high major (that plays in what could be argued is a mid major league). I just don't think it is fair to be lumping the program in with programs that have an 11 million difference in annual revenue, ride buses, have nowhere near the same facilities and so on. It's not fair. It has nothing to do with ELITISM. It has to do with FACTS. It would be like someone expecting the 2000 Zags to compete like an upper level Pac team across the entire season.
    Last edited by CDC84; 10-27-2019 at 11:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CDC84 View Post
    UCLA = $648,297 (no, it is not an error, look it up. Alford buy out?)
    this is an error 100%

    Alford's buy-out has nothing to do with revenue

    ---the site is interesting --thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by billyberu View Post
    I recall being quite upset when Pluto was downgraded from a planet to a dwarf planet, but in all reality it hasn't diminished its impact and importance to the solar system one bit.
    Likewise, a sematic parsing of the term "mid-major" hasn't stopped Gonzaga's ascent in its quest to be elite. Also, it's grist for the mill that drives Gonzaga basketball.
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