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Thread: OT - Jayhawks in for a world of pain

  1. #26
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by GonzaGAW View Post
    - what does a "world of pain" mean?
    It's a league game, Smokey.

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    from the article
    "If we're going to have these rules, they need to be enforced. Until we see the end game, I don't know how worried Kansas should be about these allegations because it still has to go through the infractions process. The committee on infractions has shown in the past that it's very reticent to punish some schools. We'll have to wait and see. If they're doing their job, Kansas should be absolutely eviscerated."
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    From Yahoo Sports:

    Sources: Kansas men's basketball charged with multiple Level 1 allegations, including lack of institutional control
    Pat Forde, Pete Thamel and Dan Wetzel

    The University of Kansas received its notice of allegations from the NCAA on Monday, which includes potentially devastating allegations toward the men’s basketball program, according to multiple sources.

    Kansas has been charged with lack of institutional control, three Level I violations in men’s basketball and there is a head coach responsibility charge against coach Bill Self, according to multiple sources. There also are allegations against football, sources added, although those are Level II violations. The football allegations include charges of allowing an extra coach to work during practice under former head coach David Beaty.

    The Level I violations are tied, in part, to the recruitments of Billy Preston and Silvio De Sousa. Court testimony and documents tied to the federal basketball corruption cases over the past two years included details of veteran adidas consultant T.J. Gassnola having “conspired to illicitly funnel approximately at least $90,000” to the mother of Preston. Gassnola also testified in court that he paid De Sousa’s guardian $2,500, although he denied arranging a $20,000 payment that had been discussed on wiretaps.

    The charge against Self will potentially prove a compelling and high-profile application of the NCAA’s head coach responsibility bylaws. Evidence tied to the case included Gassnola and Self talking openly in text messages about Adidas helping Kansas recruit players. “I’m happy with Adidas,” Self wrote Gassnola. “Just got to get a couple real guys.”

    Later, Gassnola texted about keeping Self and Kansas happy with lottery picks. Self responded: “That’s how (it) works. At UNC and Duke.”
    Article Link: https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nca...v8T?li=BBnb7Kz

    ZagDad

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    The charge against Self will potentially prove a compelling and high-profile application of the NCAA’s head coach responsibility bylaws. Evidence tied to the case included Gassnola and Self talking openly in text messages about Adidas helping Kansas recruit players. “I’m happy with Adidas,” Self wrote Gassnola. “Just got to get a couple real guys.”

    Later, Gassnola texted about keeping Self and Kansas happy with lottery picks. Self responded: “That’s how (it) works. At UNC and Duke.”


    https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nca...rol/ar-AAHJv8T

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    Quote Originally Posted by maynard g krebs View Post
    It's a league game, Smokey.
    ncaa telling bill self: "this is not nam... there are rules."

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    This is all unpossible! Kansas is the birthplace of basketball and they are the greatest program in the history of the world. They have the tradition and the legacy. They have the "Beward the Phog!" They have the waving of the brown paper bags! This cannot stand!

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    From the ESPN article...

    Under NCAA rules, Kansas officials have 90 days to respond to the charges. In a release, the school noted "it is already clear from an initial review that the University will fiercely dispute in detail much of what has been presented."

    If they take 90 days to respond and then the NCAA takes however long to review and decide means that KU can string this out and probably not face any consequences for the current season.

    ZZ

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    Quote Originally Posted by zagzilla View Post
    From the ESPN article...

    Under NCAA rules, Kansas officials have 90 days to respond to the charges. In a release, the school noted "it is already clear from an initial review that the University will fiercely dispute in detail much of what has been presented."

    If they take 90 days to respond and then the NCAA takes however long to review and decide means that KU can string this out and probably not face any consequences for the current season.

    ZZ
    It's hard to imagine this doesn't hurt there recruiting for the near future in 2020 and 2021.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagRecruitWatch View Post
    It's hard to imagine this doesn't hurt there recruiting for the near future in 2020 and 2021.
    Did it hurt crooked Seannie? And Bill has a lot more charm.

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    Still convinced we'll only see slaps on the wrists even with these multiple level 1 violations... because... they are Kansas.
    "And Morrison? He did what All-Americans do. He shot daggers in the daylight and stole a win." - Steve Kelley (Seattle Times)

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    A counterpoint from USA Sports to the views noted above:

    NCAA says Self is a cheater and wants him out
    Dan Wolken, USA TODAY
    20 hrs ago

    This isn’t a theory anymore. It’s not an empty threat from a U.S. Attorney or a grandiose promise from some stuffed shirt in Indianapolis.

    Two years after an FBI investigation cracked the door open on how college basketball really works and tons of skepticism about whether the NCAA would truly go after the sport's big names, the first real hammer dropped Monday. In no uncertain terms, they have called Kansas coach Bill Self a cheater.

    The Notice of Allegations that was sent to Kansas isn’t a 20-page document as much as it is a showdown. Kansas and Self are going to fight it, of course, because there’s really no other choice. They’re going to put the NCAA’s credibility on trial in the court of public opinion and say there’s no real evidence linking their Hall of Fame coach to the underground machinations of an Adidas bagman who was using cash to recruit basketball players to Kansas.

    But make no mistake about what is happening right now: The NCAA wants Self out of college basketball, and it is firing directly at him with all the power it's got.

    Had NCAA investigators chosen to go after Self merely for looking the other way or not properly monitoring his program, he could feel a little more secure about his future in college basketball. Plenty of coaches have been popped on that technicality, served their time in the penalty box and returned to normal operation.

    But the allegations against Self go much further, implicating him both directly and tacitly in the corruption that was carried out by T.J. Gassnola, a “consultant” in the Adidas grassroots basketball system who admitted in federal court that he made payments to the families of several high-profile recruits, including two who ended up at Kansas.

    The bottom line to all of it is this: Over and over in the Notice of Allegations, the NCAA accuses Self and Kansas assistant Kurtis Townsend of not only knowing that Gassnola and others at Adidas were working to recruit players to Kansas but that they welcomed the help and, in some cases, actively encouraged it.

    The technical sticking point Kansas will dispute is the NCAA classifying Adidas and consultants like Gassnola as Kansas boosters, which automatically turns interactions that might have seemed normal into violations.

    But ultimately, text messages between Self, Townsend and Gassnola that were entered into evidence in the federal trial could doom him. In August of 2017, shortly after Kansas and Adidas agreed to an extension of their apparel contract, Gassnola texted the following to Self: “In my mind it’s KU bill self. Everyone else fall into line , to (expletive) bad, that’s what’s right for adidas Basketball. And I know Iam RIGHT. The more you win, have lottery pics. And you happy

    That’s how it should work in my mind.”

    Self responded: “That’s how ur (sic) works. At unc and Duke”

    Gassnola: “Kentucky as well”

    Gassnola: “I promise you. I got this , I have never let you down Except (Dyondre) lol"

    The “Dyondre” he was talking about, of course, is DeAndre Ayton, who ended up at Arizona but had also been on Gassnola’s payroll. If those text messages don’t paint a pretty clear picture of Gassnola as a Kansas booster — by whatever definition you want to use — then he was sure putting up a good front.

    The way the NCAA enforcement staff connects the relationship between Self and Gassnola to illicit recruiting is both direct and damning. That’s why Self punched back so hard Monday night, essentially accusing the NCAA of overreach to make a point at his expense.

    “Compelled to reassure member institutions and the general public that it can police its member institutions, the NCAA enforcement staff has responded in an unnecessarily aggressive manner in submitting today’s unsubstantiated Notice of Allegations, and I, as well as the University, will vigorously dispute what has been alleged,” Self wrote. “In its haste and attempt to regain control, the enforcement staff has created a false narrative regarding me and our basketball program. The narrative is based on innuendo, half-truths, misimpressions and mischaracterizations.”

    But as Self surely knows, in the NCAA’s kangaroo court, he is not innocent until proven guilty. Instead, what’s contained in the Notice of Allegations already makes him guilty. Now, it’s up to Self to prove that he doesn’t deserve the massive and perhaps career-ending punishment that the NCAA could throw his way.

    Self will almost certainly coach Kansas this season because he is too successful and too well-supported to be cut loose before anyone’s hand is forced. But the weight of what the NCAA has alleged is going to hang heavy over Lawrence because for all the written defiance on Monday, Kansas knows what’s coming.

    Even if the FBI fell short of completely exposing college basketball for the cesspool that it is, the NCAA couldn’t take a pass on this. The NCAA had to hit a big name and hit them hard, and now it has its chance.

    When Gassnola early demonstrated over and over again how hard he was working to help the great Bill Self get lottery picks to Lawrence, the NCAA had the only smoking gun it needed. And in some ways, it’s the perfect one to capture the essence of the sport — a legendary, $7 million a year coach and a shoe company fixer sucking up to each other in text messages largely out of paranoia that their competition was doing the same.

    It’s easy enough to look at these slimy college basketball coaches, the greedy shoe companies and the hypocritical NCAA and wish for a plague on all their houses. But someone has to be made an example of to keep the amateurism con going. It appears that burden is going to fall directly on Self’s neck.
    Article Link: https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nca...1g?ocid=msn360

    ZagDad

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    I hope he's right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LongIslandZagFan View Post
    Still convinced we'll only see slaps on the wrists even with these multiple level 1 violations... because... they are Kansas.
    We’ll see. I think coach K may be untouchable, but the NCAA might want a big target this time.

    Whatever happens, at least we will be entertained with some game time heckling of Self and Kansas. I really enjoyed Oregon’s “Where’s the money” chant at DeAndre Ayton.
    It's peanut butter jelly time!

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    Quote Originally Posted by zagzilla View Post
    From the ESPN article...

    Under NCAA rules, Kansas officials have 90 days to respond to the charges. In a release, the school noted "it is already clear from an initial review that the University will fiercely dispute in detail much of what has been presented."

    If they take 90 days to respond and then the NCAA takes however long to review and decide means that KU can string this out and probably not face any consequences for the current season.

    ZZ

    Nothing happens until after the 2020 Tournament...

    I think Self will be gone for 5-years under the "show cause" scenario. IMO KU will reduce it's scholarship by two per year for two years and volunteer not to play in the B12 tournament and decline a tourney for 2020, this way KU will not be sanctioned by the NCAA - therefore, not being ALLOWED in to the tournament. Being banned from the tournament would allow their players to transfer to any school and be immediately eligible and the NCAA needs KU for marketing purposes for the "Dance!"

    If/When Self is fired, I think it would depend on who the next coach will be to determine how this damages KU's recruiting...with a new coach, it only took UL two years to regain prominence.

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    Speaking of Louisville, from the Louisville Courier Journal:

    NCAA is hammering Kansas. Is the same in store for Louisville?
    Danielle Lerner
    Louisville Courier Journal

    Continued fallout from the FBI's college basketball recruiting investigation pounded Lawrence, Kansas on Monday, and it's only a matter of time before it rolls into Louisville.

    The University of Kansas received a Notice of Allegations from the NCAA alleging three Level I violations as well as a lack of institutional control and a head coaching responsibility charge against men's basketball coach Bill Self.

    The allegations are tied to Kansas' involvement in the pay-to-play scandal, in which Adidas employees organized payments to college basketball recruits in exchange for their commitments to specific programs.

    The NCAA is taking a heavy hand with Kansas. Is the same in store for Louisville?

    The Cardinals definitely have the right to be worried. With Kansas, the NCAA relied heavily on evidence presented at the federal trials last fall and spring, particularly testimony and text messages from Adidas fixer T.J. Gassnola.

    The NCAA investigation into Louisville is also focused on confirming evidence from the trials, where witnesses testified of a scheme to funnel $100,000 to the family of former recruit Brian "Tugs" Bowen so he would sign with the Cards.

    Two former Louisville assistants, Kenny Johnson and Jordan Fair, are also accused of making illicit payments. Bowen's father testified that he received $1,300 from Johnson, and government witness Marty Blazer testified that Fair paid $11,700 to an AAU coach in hopes of landing another recruit identified as Balsa Koprivica.

    Many of the recruiting violations in the Kansas and Louisville cases appear similar; Gassnola testified that he conspired to make or made payments in the recruitment of Billy Preston (up to $89,000) and Silvio De Sousa ($2,500).

    One main difference is that Louisville coaches are actually accused of making payments themselves. The school fired Johnson and Fair shortly after the FBI complaint came out in September 2017, but there's no guarantee that action will mitigate any punishment from the NCAA, especially since Louisville was already on probation from the escort scandal when the payments allegedly occurred.

    Central to both cases is the relationship each school had with Adidas, and the question of who knew what.

    Text messages between Self and Gassnola appear to show that the two had a close relationship and talked about Adidas helping Kansas recruit players, so it's feasible Self could have known what Gassnola was up to.

    On the other hand, Gassnola testified that former Louisville head coach Rick Pitino was unaware of the Bowen scheme. Pitino has consistently maintained he did not know Christian Dawkins, the aspiring agent at the center of the Bowen web. Texts show Pitino was close with Adidas executive Jim Gatto, but they do not depict the two men discussing paying players.

    In its notice of allegations to Kansas, the NCAA described Adidas as a "representative of an institution's athletic interests," which is effectively the definition of a booster in NCAA bylaws. It's quite a complicated assertion that speaks to the influence shoe companies have in the basketball world, but it's unclear how much control the NCAA expects member schools to have over employees of apparel companies.

    As for the allegations themselves, the lack of institutional control charge is among the most serious against Kansas. The NCAA says that because multiple violations occurred over a period of multiple years, Kansas did not adequately monitor or enforce compliance measures.

    The same could apply to Louisville, if only because the school was already on NCAA probation after being hit with multiple Level I violations in 2016. Any more violations committed after that could be used to cite lack of institutional control, meaning a postseason ban could be inflicted on Louisville.

    As for Self's head coach responsibility charge, NCAA bylaws say the head coach is responsible for the actions of all staff who report to the coach and all violations within the program unless they can prove otherwise.

    Given that two of Pitino's assistants are directly implicated, the NCAA could decide to charge him with lack of coach control and issue a show-cause penalty. Show-cause orders are also possible for Johnson and Fair.

    There's no telling when the NCAA will wrap up its investigation into Louisville, but in the meantime it will be important to monitor how Kansas handles its allegations.
    Article Link: https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nca...bAk?li=BBnba9I

    Rumblings are being felt in the bluegrass state.

    ZagDad

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagDad84 View Post
    Speaking of Louisville, from the Louisville Courier Journal:



    Article Link: https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nca...bAk?li=BBnba9I

    Rumblings are being felt in the bluegrass state.

    ZagDad
    If UL is caught up in the same mess as KU, NCST, AZ, USC, Creighton...then the penalties could all be severe...this is the first I've heard of UL...second NCAA look see in a couple of years...they have been in constant trouble...it would seem that the Death Penalty might be warranted, if UL is hit again by the NCAA but I also remember reading that NCAA will never again use it again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LongIslandZagFan View Post
    Still convinced we'll only see slaps on the wrists even with these multiple level 1 violations... because... they are Kansas.
    They'll exhume James Naismith's corpse to ward off NCAA sanctions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogozags View Post
    If UL is caught up in the same mess as KU, NCST, AZ, USC, Creighton...then the penalties could all be severe...this is the first I've heard of UL...second NCAA look see in a couple of years...they have been in constant trouble...it would seem that the Death Penalty might be warranted, if UL is hit again by the NCAA but I also remember reading that NCAA will never again use it again.
    I saw ESPN headlines where Dennis Smith Jr. denied receiving any money from Adidas. We'll see...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    Did it hurt crooked Seannie? And Bill has a lot more charm.
    I believe it did for a year and a half, and may hurt him a bit in the near future.

    Not a ton, but it did seem to have an impact. Not of the type deserved, but some.

    You are right, it had little lasting impact, but when the whole thing was up in the air, it was an anchor on him a bit IIRC.

    Then he appeared in the clear, incoming would get massive minutes, so a great class. But w/ storm clouds brewing, possible dry days ahead, possible transfers.

    It should have a bigger impact in a just world, but hard for me to say it had no impact at all.
    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagDad84 View Post
    A counterpoint from USA Sports to the views noted above:



    Article Link: https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nca...1g?ocid=msn360

    ZagDad
    Careful about fair use policy. The rules of the board dictate caution copying articles, usually limited to 3 paragraphs and a link.

    I believe the site rule matches the general internet standard.

    Mods can note if I am wrong, obviously.

    I know you meant well, and we appreciate the good-intentions. Just watch out a bit in the future.

    Cheers, and thx.
    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
    Mark Twain.

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    Georgia Tech

    Dan Wolken
    @DanWolken
    ·
    1h
    BREAKING: Georgia Tech basketball banned from the postseason in 2019-20


    Evan Daniels
    @EvanDaniels
    ·
    1h
    To go with postseason ban, Georgia Tech also hit with these each of next 4 years:

    •Reduction of a scholarship
    •8 week ban on unofficials
    •3 visit reduction on officials
    •8 week ban on recruiting communication
    •Reduction of 19 recruiting days

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    Wow! GT isn't that a P-5 school and I thought the NCAA might have made a mistake because P-5 schools were not supposed to be penalized...this must be a mistake...Maybe they meant UOP!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogozags View Post
    Wow! GT isn't that a P-5 school and I thought the NCAA might have made a mistake because P-5 schools were not supposed to be penalized...this must be a mistake...Maybe they meant UOP!
    LOL

    so is GT the precedent for punishment in this, or the fall guy? we'll see, but I'm focused on Kansas, Arizona, Louisville...again, etc.

    GT being hurt helps their foes, as it would with Kansas, Arizona, Louisville...another perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogozags View Post
    Wow! GT isn't that a P-5 school and I thought the NCAA might have made a mistake because P-5 schools were not supposed to be penalized...this must be a mistake...Maybe they meant UOP!
    Hahah yeah I was going to note that Georgia Tech is pretty much the Pacific of the ACC, at least BBall performance-wise.

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