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Thread: OT: California Legislature Proposes Law Allowing Athletes to Make Endorsement Deals

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagDad84 View Post
    Interesting to see that so many posters are willing to risk (or throw out) the current NCAA (amateur) model to provide a benefit to a relatively small percentage of the student athletes. The current NCAA (amateur) model, warts and all, has provided billions of dollars to the member institutions athletic departments. Generally speaking only Mbb and Football are money making programs (and many times these programs still operate at a loss) with the rest of the athletic programs (generally speaking) operate at a loss. Where would the athletic departments come up with the replacement funds if the current model is trashed or significantly reduced?

    While the legislation will impact all student athletes, in reality, this legislation will only have a significant ($$) impact on what, 1% maybe 2% of the student athletes? On this 1-2% of the athletes, they are not being asked to give up their money, but to delay it for a year, maybe two in exchange for a paid college education, room and board, stipend, coaching, etc.

    Once the one and done rule is done with by the NBA, the number of student athletes (Mbb) that would see a significant benefit from this legislation is going to be reduced significantly.

    IMO, I don't see that the benefit in helping the future millionaires (top 1% of student athletes) get some additional money outweighs the potential risk to the hundreds of thousands of student athletes which will not see a dime from this legislation.

    To each their own,

    ZagDad
    It's not just the top 1 percent though. Hachimura's earnings would have likely dwarfed nearly everyone, except some other top ballers. Yet others will earn too.

    You can easily see how a player on the tennis team could get paid for an appearance at a youth camp - that's a cool few grand - how a golf athlete could do the same. How an athlete in volleyball could capitalize on his or her 30,000 Instagram followers. How a baseball player could be paid to endorse a summer program or new local bat company. The list goes on. Believe it or not, ZagDad, but a lot of these kids are pretty creative in how they can make money. There are complete unknowns making millions of dollars through Instagram endorsements.

    Also I disagree with the premise that it blows up the system. The NCAA has a huge compliance department. If knight gives kids generous deals to play at Oregon they will be on that. College bball will stay the same but the kids won't be as poor. Maybe they can fly their mom out to Hawaii or Atlantis for the invitational.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willandi View Post
    Then allow NO usage of name or likeness, for profit, of ANY student athlete!

    There...That wasn't so hard, was it!
    So, you're proposing telling the NCAA and colleges that they can no longer profit in any way off the names, images or likenesses of their players? What are the chances of them agreeing to that?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZagDad84 View Post
    I don't think there is anybody going to argue that a person has a fundamental right to profit off their image/likeness. If you can sell it, go for it.

    The question is, do you have a right to profit off your image/likeness AND play collegiate sports. Nobody has a fundamental right to play collegiate sports, that is up to the NCAA and its member institutions. If you don't like the rules and restrictions imposed by the NCAA and its member institutions, don't play for them.

    I may be wrong, but wasn't there a court ruling recently in which one or more of the video game manufacturers was told that they could no longer use the image/likeness of collegiate players without their consent?

    ZagDad
    Sure, but the problem is that the NCAA and colleges are still doing it in capacities outside of video games. So the NCAA/colleges make money off the students names, images and likenesses, but they prohibit students from doing so. So yes, as an institution, they have a right to make rules about who is eligible to participate. However, outside parties may recognize that the rules they make are unjust, and pursue other remedies, in this case a state making a policy about what universities are and are not permitted to do (or prohibit).

    Apparently the NCAA is suggesting that this bill is unconstitutional, which sounds like hogwash to me:

    https://usatodayhss.com/2019/ncaa-le...constitutional

    I do prefer like truly amateur athletics, but let's be honest, amateur is a very rough description of what actually occurs these days. The NCAA and colleges are making big money off of athletics, and it seems fairly reasonable to suggest that athletes should have some right to a cut of that, given that the profits are coming through their efforts. As willandi suggests, if the NCAA and universities are willing to renounce these massive profits, I expect the athletes would have little to no case. However, that seems exceedingly unlikely.
    I will thank God for the day and the moment I have. - Jimmy V

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    "Money, Money, Money..."

    Whatever money touches changes...if anyone believes that student/athletes can market themselves isn't going to change the game of collegiate basketball, football, baseball, etc., then I have another London Bridge to sell you...

    Money has already changed sports in the last 10-15 years and it will only have more of an ill effect as each year passes by...

    I have given some thought to this dilemma and can't see why schools can't set up trust accounts for these athletes, which they can have access to after they have finished playing...

    These California colleges and universities can just chose to NOT play in the NCAA Championship Tournaments...they could still play within their own conferences but not post season tournaments run by the NCAA.

    Some of you might be aware but JC's have their own NC tournament; however, California JC's don't participate...they have their own tournament. What's to stop CA schools from doing the same thing and continue to play within their own conferences?

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    Quote Originally Posted by webspinnre View Post
    So, you're proposing telling the NCAA and colleges that they can no longer profit in any way off the names, images or likenesses of their players? What are the chances of them agreeing to that
    Well, you are saying Trash the NCAA for a few athletes.

    Which makes more sense?
    Hoping you have a sense of humor too!

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    Do athletes surrender control of their Name, Image, and Likeness (NIL) when they sign up to play college sports? Sounds like that’s the view of the NCAA, though the O’Bannon lawsuit results certainly chipped away at that piece of the rock


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    Quote Originally Posted by willandi View Post
    Well, you are saying Trash the NCAA for a few athletes.

    Which makes more sense?
    No, I'm saying that the NCAA isn't willing to give up the money they're making off the back of the athletes, and as such, I don't have much sympathy for them being upset that the athletes want to have the right to utilize their name, likeness, and image. I think college athletics are a good, but I think the right of an individual to his or her name, image and likeness trumps the good of the NCAA. As CB4 explains, this isn't just a "few" - any social media savvy athlete is going to be able to make some money, as will many in their local communities.
    I will thank God for the day and the moment I have. - Jimmy V

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    On their podcast, Gary Parrish and Matt Norlander have covered this issue pretty extensively and make some great points:

    1) This stuff happens already - this will allow it to come out into the open. Worried about corruption? This will allow boosters or shoe companies or whoever who want to influence an athlete to pass money to the athlete directly instead of having to launder it first.

    2) Why are the schools against this? Because money would be going to the athletes instead of the school. Let's say you have a local booster who gives $100k a year to the athletic department. Now, this booster might split up that donation and maybe sign a player to a $50k endorsement deal and the school only gets $50k. The NCAA, it's member institutions, and the well paid staff at these schools are collectively making BILLIONS, and they don't want the players getting that money.

    3) Worried that the best players will all go to the best schools? They already do. The pool of available players won't change significantly. So Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, UNC, etc will still get a lot (or most) of the best players. Davidson, George Mason, and Pacific will still get mostly mid major players.

    4) Worried about lots of kids leaving early? This can help solve that problem. A lot of players want to go make money. Like literally all of us, they would rather have money than not. If you can make a little bit of money traveling on busses in the G-League, make some medium money playing in Europe, or make some medium money still playing for the Zags and be on charter flights and sold out arenas every game, fewer athletes will leave college early. This allows college to compete with other minor league systems on a fair footing in that light.

    Bottom line for me - precluding athletes from legally making money to hold up a facade of amateurism is immoral. I believe that allowing athletes to accept compensation would be unlikely to significantly change the amount of money flowing into the sport. It would just change who would be getting a portion of it.

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    I feel a lot of the focus gets unfairly placed on the NCAA. If all professional sports gave an avenue for athletes to go pro out of HS, then I would have zero issue with the current structure. You have a choice, develop in college or go make your $$ in the pros. Right now it seems baseball and basketball have that. You can go to the G-League now out of HS I believe. Yes, the wages aren't great, but its a way for you to make some $ and prove yourself to the teams that you can compete at a higher level.

    Football is the toughest because it seems to have the biggest gap between a HS player and a pro as far as physicality is concerned, that isn't as much of an issue for basketball and baseball. My buddy who played in the NFL says it was amazing how the big guys in HS could just stand there and block you, in college they could move around and block you, and in the nfl they could run you down and bring you to the ground.

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    I'm great with the idea of giving athletes a $5-$10 K stipend to help make ends meet and reward them for their contribution. But I hate to see the sponsor money come into college sports. Making money will become a job, the more money available, the more time they will devote to making it. It could really become an issue. We want students to be excellent students. That's the purpose of going to college. We want student athletes to devote all of their spare time to work on improving at their sport as well. What little time is left needs to be focused on friends and being kids. If we are now adding the demands of being entrepreneurs and marketing themselves as a business, it adds another huge layer of complexity and pressure to their present heavy load. Let them enjoy being with friends as young college students for a few years before they are thrust into the real world of full-time chasing the almighty dollar.

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    If this issue is something about which you have strong feelings (in either direction), I really encourage you to take a few minutes and listen to the most recent CBS college basketball pdocast. Parrish and Norlander break down this issue from a strong pro-student perspective.

    https://www.cbssports.com/college-ba...nge-its-rules/

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB4 View Post
    It's not just the top 1 percent though. Hachimura's earnings would have likely dwarfed nearly everyone, except some other top ballers. Yet others will earn too.

    You can easily see how a player on the tennis team could get paid for an appearance at a youth camp - that's a cool few grand - how a golf athlete could do the same. How an athlete in volleyball could capitalize on his or her 30,000 Instagram followers. How a baseball player could be paid to endorse a summer program or new local bat company. The list goes on. Believe it or not, ZagDad, but a lot of these kids are pretty creative in how they can make money. There are complete unknowns making millions of dollars through Instagram endorsements.

    Also I disagree with the premise that it blows up the system. The NCAA has a huge compliance department. If knight gives kids generous deals to play at Oregon they will be on that. College bball will stay the same but the kids won't be as poor. Maybe they can fly their mom out to Hawaii or Atlantis for the invitational.
    Let me clarify that I absolutely agree that a player should own the rights to their name/image and I don't think you would get any argument from most of us on this board.

    CB4, maybe you and I have a difference of opinion on this statement that I made:

    While the legislation will impact all student athletes, in reality, this legislation will only have a significant ($$) impact on what, 1% maybe 2% of the student athletes? On this 1-2% of the athletes, they are not being asked to give up their money, but to delay it for a year, maybe two in exchange for a paid college education, room and board, stipend, coaching, etc.
    The key word is in bold. In the context of my statement above, my definition of significant means $10,000s or more, not the $500-1,000-2,000 benefits that golfer, tennis player, etc. could possibly earn. Not that the $500-1,000-2,000 is not "significant" to a student athlete.

    I am not exactly sure on how much money the member schools and/or NCAA are really making off the name/image of the vast majority of athletes in golf, swimming, cross country, rowing, volleyball (in most cases), gymnastics (in most cases), etc. but I am relatively sure they are certainly not making millions, let alone billions of dollars on the name/image/likeness of student athletes in the non-elite (read non-Mbb and non-football) sports.

    Let me play devil's advocate here and throw out some conceptual issues.

    What about names on the back of jersey's, do the students get paid and if so how much? Rui gets $10,000, Kispert gets $2,000 and Timme only $500? Do some people get names on the jersey's and others not?

    If you want to use the name and picture of a student athlete on the team's annual program, soda cup, do you have to negotiate with each member of the team individually?

    Have you ever or sent kids (grandkids) to a Zag summer camp? Are we now going to have to negotiate with the players if we want them to participate in this camp or compete with alternative camps that are run by the student athletes? How much is the cost of the summer camps going to have to increase to cover the costs and how many kids are going to be priced out of the summer camp? Tough luck kids.

    I could go on and on and maybe the California bill has addressed some of these issues, I have not read bill. But there will be significant ramifications that are not foreseen by passage of this bill that will negatively affect collegiate athletics far beyond Mbb. Like last year's tax cut, the bill will affect most of the student athletes, but the Top 1% will be far and away the biggest beneficiaries. The rich will get richer.

    The good thing is that if the California bill gets passed, it will not take affect until 2023 and you can bet that by the time the NCAA and California get done negotiating, the bill will be significantly changed.

    Nice discussion everyone.

    ZagDad

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagDad84 View Post
    Let me play devil's advocate here and throw out some conceptual issues.

    What about names on the back of jersey's, do the students get paid and if so how much? Rui gets $10,000, Kispert gets $2,000 and Timme only $500? Do some people get names on the jersey's and others not?

    If you want to use the name and picture of a student athlete on the team's annual program, soda cup, do you have to negotiate with each member of the team individually?

    Have you ever or sent kids (grandkids) to a Zag summer camp? Are we now going to have to negotiate with the players if we want them to participate in this camp or compete with alternative camps that are run by the student athletes? How much is the cost of the summer camps going to have to increase to cover the costs and how many kids are going to be priced out of the summer camp? Tough luck kids.

    I could go on and on and maybe the California bill has addressed some of these issues, I have not read bill. But there will be significant ramifications that are not foreseen by passage of this bill that will negatively affect collegiate athletics far beyond Mbb. Like last year's tax cut, the bill will affect most of the student athletes, but the Top 1% will be far and away the biggest beneficiaries. The rich will get richer.

    The good thing is that if the California bill gets passed, it will not take affect until 2023 and you can bet that by the time the NCAA and California get done negotiating, the bill will be significantly changed.

    Nice discussion everyone.

    ZagDad
    We're conflating revenue sharing (the University paying the player) with endorsements (third parties paying the players). The CA legislation prohibits revenue sharing, including $$ for names on jerseys like you address in your hypothetical. So that wouldn't really be an issue. Nor would it be an issue regarding how much the University has to pay each player for their image on other items.

    California Senate Bill 206

    This bill would prohibit California postsecondary educational institutions except community colleges, and every athletic association, conference, or other group or organization with authority over intercollegiate athletics, from providing a prospective intercollegiate student athlete with compensation in relation to the athlete’s name, image, or likeness, or preventing a student participating in intercollegiate athletics from earning compensation as a result of the use of the student’s name, image, or likeness or obtaining professional representation relating to the student’s participation in intercollegiate athletics. The bill also would prohibit an athletic association, conference, or other group or organization with authority over intercollegiate athletics from preventing a postsecondary educational institution other than a community college from participating in intercollegiate athletics as a result of the compensation of a student athlete for the use of the student’s name, image, or likeness.

    To summarize, the bill prohibits colleges from paying student athletes for their likeness, image. It also prohibits colleges and the NCAA from preventing a student athlete from profiting off his or her likeness in other respects, such as endorsements from third parties. So, schools won't have to pay players anything. Same as it is now. But Cup Noodles can pay Hachimura to endorse the product.

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    My take is this, the NCAA is absolutely making huge amounts of money. However, to say that member institutions (which I take as athletic programs) are making huge money is not accurate in most cases. I don't think the answer is allowing athletes to get endorsement deals as that is far to easy to manipulate with boosters, etc essentially changing the amateurism of the sports. In all honesty, less than 2% of all college athletes go professional and the majority of sports at the NCAA level are funded primarily from football/basketball...the number of sports programs will decrease with a pay model.

    I'm frankly tired of hearing about the "poor athletes" when they have the opportunity to get a degree at no financial cost, healthcare, training tables, nutrition/conditioning programs, and the select top tier build their brands at this level as well. I have no problem if the NCAA itself were to distribute out revenue to each athlete in intercollegiate athletics as long as it is at the exact same level regardless of the star status or sport. It would take information I don't have access to in order to determine what that amount is but I don't think $20k is realistic if all athletes are paid.

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    Vulture, why do you think rowers at Gonzaga, as an example, should receive the same distribution as college basketball players at Gonzaga under some system of revenue sharing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Vulture View Post
    My take is this, the NCAA is absolutely making huge amounts of money. However, to say that member institutions (which I take as athletic programs) are making huge money is not accurate in most cases. I don't think the answer is allowing athletes to get endorsement deals as that is far to easy to manipulate with boosters, etc essentially changing the amateurism of the sports. In all honesty, less than 2% of all college athletes go professional and the majority of sports at the NCAA level are funded primarily from football/basketball...the number of sports programs will decrease with a pay model.

    I'm frankly tired of hearing about the "poor athletes" when they have the opportunity to get a degree at no financial cost, healthcare, training tables, nutrition/conditioning programs, and the select top tier build their brands at this level as well. I have no problem if the NCAA itself were to distribute out revenue to each athlete in intercollegiate athletics as long as it is at the exact same level regardless of the star status or sport. It would take information I don't have access to in order to determine what that amount is but I don't think $20k is realistic if all athletes are paid.
    Well said! I couldn't agree more with your comments. Unfortunately i feel if you start to allow sudent athletes to be paid even if all are paid exactly the same it will open up pandora's box.
    I dont think it would be long before crazy things start to happen. I can see cheerleaders and (human) mascots say that are integral part of the team and should be paid. The students who attend games could make the same claim and want to get paid. I realize this sounds crazy but Las Vegas dosnt think so! Home games and fans definitely influence point spreds maybe 2-4 points. If a player who averaged 2 points a game gets paid where does it end?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FloridaZagFan View Post
    Well said! I couldn't agree more with your comments. Unfortunately i feel if you start to allow sudent athletes to be paid even if all are paid exactly the same it will open up pandora's box.
    I dont think it would be long before crazy things start to happen. I can see cheerleaders and (human) mascots say that are integral part of the team and should be paid. The students who attend games could make the same claim and want to get paid. I realize this sounds crazy but Las Vegas dosnt think so! Home games and fans definitely influence point spreds maybe 2-4 points. If a player who averaged 2 points a game gets paid where does it end?
    If a student who attends a game wants to endorse a product on Instagram - and some of them do (namely: beautiful people, artistic people, fashion people, travel people, funny people, you name it) - they can. They don't lose their eligibility to sleep through college classes. If a college athlete wants to make an account on Cameo or endorse a product on Instagram or elsewhere, they lose their eligibility to play basketball, cause their program to be stripped of seasons or titles, and become a pariah to a certain degree.

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    nobody knows any famous college tennis players, or college baseball players, or golf players.....lets get real.....

    its a very bad idea......rich teams will be able to entice the top players because they mostly exist in large populated areas with lots of opportunity for advertising....true, these same teams have a leg up on top recruits anyway, but this new ruling just makes the advantage exponentially better....

    college game will be over.....what will be left will be semi pro teams.....which is not what we watch college basketball for. ..

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    The reason the NCAA banned athletes from accepting money was because it was rampant with fraud and cheating. Athletes were being paid huge sums for little to no work.

    This is opening that Pandora's box again. Who will determine how much any given athlete should be paid for the use of their name or likeness? Is that amount for EACH usage or a blanket amount.

    Even with the prohibition in place, boosters have cheated. This will just make it worse.
    Hoping you have a sense of humor too!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB4 View Post
    If a student who attends a game wants to endorse a product on Instagram - and some of them do (namely: beautiful people, artistic people, fashion people, travel people, funny people, you name it) - they can. They don't lose their eligibility to sleep through college classes. If a college athlete wants to make an account on Cameo or endorse a product on Instagram or elsewhere, they lose their eligibility to play basketball, cause their program to be stripped of seasons or titles, and become a pariah to a certain degree.
    Great point! I dont agree with all of the NCAA's rules and i think many are ridiculous. Maybe I'm old school but i think the Olympics have been ruined by alowing professionals to compete. College sports are still being played by amateurs, if all athletes in all sports shared equally in some type of revenue sharing it might not change basketball because outside of the NCAA & maybe AAU there really arnt any amateur leagues that im aware of that you would be excluded from after college. Sports like golf however trake amateurism very seriously, you would be banned from playing top level amateur events.
    I dont think enough value is put on education (a fee education) what is the tuition at GU this year? If you are in the very small percentage of athletes who are planning on going pro then you have two choices coming out of high school
    1. I am good enough to turn pro and go make some money.
    2. I'm good but I want to (USE)college to get better and showcase my skills. That means i will take the scolarship $$$$ learn from the best coaches$$$$ play aginst the best competition $$$$ work with the best trainers and doctors$$$$. After that i will use the world wide exposure of TV$$$$$$ to promote my brand.

    Sounds to me like NCAA athletes get a heck of alot that has serious Value!
    I would say that Zion was able to use Duke to the tune of maybe $25 million? Great player coming out of high school but NCAA basketball created his image.
    Look at the brand Rui created at Gonzaga!

    I dont ever want to take advantage of a college student!
    I think they get a heck of alot and they deserve it! I just dont think they should get paid. Either you are an amateur or a pro. In the larger income sports i feel for the walk on's really.

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    The market is very efficient at determining value.....if it is allowed to work.....the value of anything is what a buyer is willing to pay for it at a point in time...… who gets.... how much..... for what...…. is a very simple problem to resolve….

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    Quote Originally Posted by FloridaZagFan View Post

    Sounds to me like NCAA athletes get a heck of alot that has serious Value!

    I would say that Zion was able to use Duke to the tune of maybe $25 million? Great player coming out of high school but NCAA basketball created his image.
    Look at the brand Rui created at Gonzaga!

    I dont ever want to take advantage of a college student!
    I think they get a heck of alot and they deserve it! I just dont think they should get paid. Either you are an amateur or a pro. In the larger income sports i feel for the walk on's really.
    While it varies widely depending on where you go to school, various estimates figure that a full scholarship athlete (room, board, tuition books, fees, coaching, nutrition, trainers, etc.) gets a value of $50,000 - $130,000 per year not including any stipends they may be paid. Trying to tell the students (and me for that matter) that have to pay for that same value out of pocket that these full scholarship athletes are "poor" sticks in my craw. Even when these full scholarship athletes graduate from college, whether they play pro or semi-pro ball or not, they are not saddled with the ever burdening student debt that a large portion of our collegiate graduates have to deal with.

    That orthopedic doctor putting the student athlete's shoulder (knee, ankle, etc.) back together may have a $250,000 in student debt that he is paying on for the next 20 years.

    You want to argue that the students athletes have a right to earn additional money based on their name/image/likeness, fine, I can accept that argument. But calling a full scholarship athlete poor (or deprived, undervalued, etc.) they are far from it.

    ZagDad

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    Quote Originally Posted by sylean View Post
    nobody knows any famous college tennis players, or college baseball players, or golf players.....lets get real.....

    its a very bad idea......rich teams will be able to entice the top players because they mostly exist in large populated areas with lots of opportunity for advertising....true, these same teams have a leg up on top recruits anyway, but this new ruling just makes the advantage exponentially better....

    college game will be over.....what will be left will be semi pro teams.....which is not what we watch college basketball for. ..


    Exactly. The backup kicker at Alabama will make more than the starting quarterback at wazzu.

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    Associated Press writer Eddie Pells' article on the proposed changes hit the local fish wrap this morning:

    https://www.apnews.com/3d147819a61f4c93a0ecef8e1e8cfdd4

    "It would erase the critical distinction between college and professional athletics and, because it gives those schools an unfair recruiting advantage, would result in them eventually being unable to compete in NCAA competitions," the letter said.

    The second part of this argument makes sense. If a player who attends college in California can get a sponsorship deal while those in other states can't, it builds in an advantage that not even the shadiest college recruiter and his shoe-company buddies can match.

    But the first part -- the part about the "critical distinction between college and professional athletics" -- is disingenuous to the core, a notion as antiquated as the peach basket and leather helmet, and the reason this whole thing is bound to change.

    The notion that these near-full-time athletes in these billion-dollar sports are amateurs, or that they shouldn't get paid, runs counter to the tenets of basic fairness and feels downright un-American. Hard to believe the Olympics -- hardly run by the most forward-thinking or athlete-centric organizations -- were decades ahead of the NCAA when it came to unwinding the charade of amateurism in its sports.

    "It's a fundamental truth of life that our innate ability is what creates our livelihood," said Jeremy Bloom, the former skier/football player who, years ago, got caught in the NCAA crosshairs for having the temerity to want to play both sports and to have sponsors in one (skiing) so he could fund his Olympic dreams. "These are the abilities of these people, and there's no reason they shouldn't have the ability to monetize that, irrespective of whether their education is getting paid for or not."
    In addition to threatening to bar California schools from NCAA championships (Think of the possibilities: Winner of March Madness plays UCLA for the real national title.), the NCAA called the bill unconstitutional, a notion that immediately brings with it the specter of a court case.

    That’s how seriously the NCAA appears to take this threat. It’s a sign of how far NCAA President Mark Emmert and his cronies are willing to go to protect a way of life that has lined all its schools’ coffers along with the pocketbooks of all the administrators, TV networks, coaches and sponsors involved in college sports.

    Everyone but the players.

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    And they won't get one red cent (more then their scholarship [if they have one]).



    Hoping you have a sense of humor too!

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    Quote Originally Posted by willandi View Post
    And they won't get one red cent (more then their scholarship [if they have one]).



    Whether we like it or not, nobody pays any money to go see the band.
    'I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay… small acts of kindness and love.'
    - Gandalf the Grey

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    Foo Time

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