Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: International Question - Mojo or others?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    633

    Default International Question - Mojo or others?

    As a casual NBA fan and basically a totally ignorant international pro basketball fan, could someone explain a bit about the hierarchy or relative prestige/pay/quality of the leagues overseas?

    I noticed that Johnathan Williams (a marginal NBA player) is now set to play in Israel. NWG obviously was playing in Greece. Kyle Wiltjer has bounced around for a few seasons.

    Is there anything like a "#1 league" outside the NBA? If there is, why wouldn't a fringe NBA guy like Williams end up there?

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Spokane South Side
    Posts
    16,925

    Default

    Here's an article from a couple of years ago by Fran Fraschilla, answering your question: https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...ll-leagues-nba

    Fran ranks the leagues:

    1. Euroleague, followed by

    Eurocup

    2. Spain's Liga ACB

    3. Turkish Basketball Super League (BSL)

    4. Russia's VTB United League

    5. Germany's Basketball Bundesliga (BBL)

    6. Italy's Lega Basket Serie A (LBA)

    7. France's LNB Pro A

    8. Adriatic League (ABA)

    9. Greek A1 League

    10. Australia's National Basketball League (NBL)

    11. Lithuania's LKL

    12. Chinese Basketball Association (CBA)

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Spokane South Side
    Posts
    16,925

    Default

    You got me curious, LTownZag, about how many Zags play abroad in the same home and/or international leagues. Here's what I found:



    Obviously, some tams don't play an an international league as well as their home league.

    Also, I don't know why the BCL isn't on Fran's list. It calls on a number of very successful teams.
    Last edited by ZagNative; 08-05-2019 at 09:11 PM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    582

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LTownZag View Post
    As a casual NBA fan and basically a totally ignorant international pro basketball fan, could someone explain a bit about the hierarchy or relative prestige/pay/quality of the leagues overseas?

    I noticed that Johnathan Williams (a marginal NBA player) is now set to play in Israel. NWG obviously was playing in Greece. Kyle Wiltjer has bounced around for a few seasons.

    Is there anything like a "#1 league" outside the NBA? If there is, why wouldn't a fringe NBA guy like Williams end up there?

    Thanks
    There are so many different domestic leagues around the world it becomes difficult to rank where the best "jobs" are because there are some second tier franchises that pay more money and more often on time than some first tier franchises. In the past week I have had a conversation with four different kids that were considering overseas offers. All were starters at major universities. One was offered $1000 month in 2nd German League, one was going to make $4000 a month in the top Lebanese League, one was being offered 10k a month to play in the 1st Italian League, and one has already signed to make $3500 month in Mexico League.

    The teams that compete in the EuroCup are from a variety of domestic leagues, and generally speaking they are considered the top European teams. After that, it really depends on where you are and how much $$ they are paying you as to how good the job is. Making 5K a month in Sydney Australia for a team that always pays its players on time is probably a better gig than making 7K a month in the Ukraine for a team with a history of treating Americans like crap and not paying them when they fail to produce.

    With JW3 I imagine he negotiated a pretty good deal seeing as how he has NBA experience, which is huge if you are demanding top $$ in Europe.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Napa, CA
    Posts
    4,386

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MileHigh View Post
    There are so many different domestic leagues around the world it becomes difficult to rank where the best "jobs" are because there are some second tier franchises that pay more money and more often on time than some first tier franchises. In the past week I have had a conversation with four different kids that were considering overseas offers. All were starters at major universities. One was offered $1000 month in 2nd German League, one was going to make $4000 a month in the top Lebanese League, one was being offered 10k a month to play in the 1st Italian League, and one has already signed to make $3500 month in Mexico League.

    The teams that compete in the EuroCup are from a variety of domestic leagues, and generally speaking they are considered the top European teams. After that, it really depends on where you are and how much $$ they are paying you as to how good the job is. Making 5K a month in Sydney Australia for a team that always pays its players on time is probably a better gig than making 7K a month in the Ukraine for a team with a history of treating Americans like crap and not paying them when they fail to produce.

    With JW3 I imagine he negotiated a pretty good deal seeing as how he has NBA experience, which is huge if you are demanding top $$ in Europe.
    Thanks for the response, very interesting.
    I will thank God for the day and the moment I have. - Jimmy V

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Hermosa Beach, CA
    Posts
    712

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by webspinnre View Post
    Thanks for the response, very interesting.

    Yeah - you almost have to look at like if the NCAA was a professional league. Perhaps as an example consider that like the WCC there can be some a very "rich" clubs (ie Gonzaga), a secondary club or two (BYU - St Mary's) and then a bunch of poor low budget minnows in domestic league. The Lithuanian league would be a good example. Or there are "power" domestic leagues like the ACC (the Spanish ACB or the Turkish TBL may be loose examples) where there are a number of wealthier clubs and it is a much more competitive league across the board.

    Then you have the Pan-European leagues mentioned above like the EuroLeague and the EuroCup where the better teams from the various domestic leagues also play. The EuroLeague is the premier league and comprises most of the wealthiest clubs in Europe. If your guys is on one of those teams they are likely among the 100 or so best plaid players in Europe. The EuroCup would come next and feeds into the EuroLeague.

    It is hard to gauge the relative strength of domestic leagues but there is a loose hierarchy (see above). But there can be good big budget clubs in weaker domestic leagues who are better than low or average teams in better domestic leagues (with higher pay).

    And then there is China - very high pay - often higher than the EuroLeague for ex-NBA players. But a still a very weak league in terms of quality of play. And the NBL in Australia is getting better every year as well.

    In short - look beyond just the domestic league that someone plays in (the individual club is more important) and see if is a EuroLeague team or EuroCup or then the FIBA Champions League (which has some teams that are way better than EuroCup temas but is generally a weaker pan-European league.

    Hope that helps.

    Specific to JWIII - that is a little lower club but he is just starting out in Europe (it is really a "prove it" attitude towards young Americans). NWG, Pangos, Wiltjer, , Daye have all had their time at the top clubs in Europe (EuroLeague clubs). Pangos and NWG have been quite successful . Wiltjer and Daye have slowly fallen off but still going at slightly lower levels.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Hermosa Beach, CA
    Posts
    712

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ZagNative View Post
    You got me curious, LTownZag, about how many Zags play abroad in the same home and/or international leagues. Here's what I found:



    Obviously, some tams don't play an an international league as well as their home league.

    Also, I don't know why the BCL isn't on Fran's list. It calls on a number of very successful teams.
    If I had to rank the pay rates it is likely the EuroLeague guys first (Pangos, NWG last year) then the EuroCup (Daye, JWIII) then the BCL guys - however Brose (Harris) has been a EuroLeague team in the past and has a good budget. He could be paid more than the EuroCup guys. Wiltjer too as the bigger Turkish teams historical have had solid budgets. This is all educated guessing though and there is load of variation from club to club.

    The rest of the guys are like a fraction of say Pangos's 1MM euro net (after tax) salary. He is very likely the highest paid of all the guys on the list by a wide margin.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    968

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ZagNative View Post
    You got me curious, LTownZag, about how many Zags play abroad in the same home and/or international leagues. Here's what I found:



    Obviously, some tams don't play an an international league as well as their home league.

    Also, I don't know why the BCL isn't on Fran's list. It calls on a number of very successful teams.
    We should have this chart pinned to the top in its own thread on Old Dogs...

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Savannah, GA
    Posts
    2,849

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Malastein View Post
    We should have this chart pinned to the top in its own thread on Old Dogs...
    Agreed! First time I’m seeing it. Thanks ZN!

    Is Karnowski not playing anywhere this season?
    It is their time....their team...I just get to watch. - Bartruff1

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    43

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GonzagasaurusFlex View Post
    Is Karnowski not playing anywhere this season?
    He played few games for Polski Cukier Torun in 18-19 season of Polish Basketball League (PLK) but got injured again and again. No news for now where he is going.
    Probably the only Gonzaga fan in Ireland!

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Bothell, WA
    Posts
    719

    Default

    Are Pargo and Micah Downs still playing?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    If at first you don't succeed, try to solve the situation with a spud gun. ~Dwight Schrute~

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Napa, CA
    Posts
    4,386

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NontradZag View Post
    Are Pargo and Micah Downs still playing?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Pargo was with Maccabi Tel Aviv, but I don't know that he's signed anywhere for this year yet.

    Downs is listed on the roster for Benfica in Portugal.

    https://www.eurobasket.com/team//Spo...boa_Benfica/97
    I will thank God for the day and the moment I have. - Jimmy V

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Hermosa Beach, CA
    Posts
    712

    Default

    Here is an annual ranking of the domestic leagues in Europe by Eurohoops.net.

    https://www.eurohoops.net/en/league-...-the-others/4/

    This can help you differentiate the domestic leagues but always keep in mind the individual club is probably more important. For example you will see the Lithuanian league ranked 10th here, but Pangos' old club Zalgiris plays there and is definitely is a top 10 club in all of Europe.

    Also note this doesn't include the international leagues - EuroLeague, EuroCup, FIBA Champions League, FIBA Europe Cup (listed in order of quality) that many clubs also play in.

    Even in something like the EuroLeague there is huge disparity in pay - A deep pocked club like CSKA has a +40MM euro budget (including operational costs, not just salaries) where Zalgiris is around 10MM euros (about $8MM dedicated to salaries).

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    633

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo13 View Post
    Here is an annual ranking of the domestic leagues in Europe by Eurohoops.net.

    https://www.eurohoops.net/en/league-...-the-others/4/

    This can help you differentiate the domestic leagues but always keep in mind the individual club is probably more important. For example you will see the Lithuanian league ranked 10th here, but Pangos' old club Zalgiris plays there and is definitely is a top 10 club in all of Europe.

    Also note this doesn't include the international leagues - EuroLeague, EuroCup, FIBA Champions League, FIBA Europe Cup (listed in order of quality) that many clubs also play in.

    Even in something like the EuroLeague there is huge disparity in pay - A deep pocked club like CSKA has a +40MM euro budget (including operational costs, not just salaries) where Zalgiris is around 10MM euros (about $8MM dedicated to salaries).
    Thanks for posting this!

    Do you have any insight why a 2nd year fringe NBA type player (JW3) would go from NBA/G-league to an Israeli Winner's League & Eurocup team to suddenly? To the ignorant (me) it seems like a big dropoff.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Napa, CA
    Posts
    4,386

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LTownZag View Post
    Thanks for posting this!

    Do you have any insight why a 2nd year fringe NBA type player (JW3) would go from NBA/G-league to an Israeli Winner's League & Eurocup team to suddenly? To the ignorant (me) it seems like a big dropoff.
    I would suspect that they pay significantly better than the G-league does.
    I will thank God for the day and the moment I have. - Jimmy V

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Hermosa Beach, CA
    Posts
    712

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by webspinnre View Post
    I would suspect that they pay significantly better than the G-league does.

    According to Sportrac JWIII made $127,250 last year.
    https://hoopshype.com/player/johnathan-williams/salary/

    He was on a 2-way contract last year with the Lakers and is frankly a little old for a contract like that (24) - as they are more menat of young, high potential guys that the NBA clubs want to hold their rights to and develop..He likely didn't get good feedback about his prospects in the NBA - I doubt at his age he is a high growth player and by now is probably more of a finished product (or at least doesnthave that high upside). A logical decision is that he thinks he has a better shot of making good money in Europe than the NBA. Most guys don't jump right into the EuroLeague and a +$1MM a year contract in Europe and need to start a little lower and prove themselves (like NWG, Pangos etc.). Regardless he should be making well overt he $127K he made a 2-way player last year with this club. Probably in the $200-500K range. This is a similar level club to Pangos' rookie club (Gran Canaria) - likely a similar payday.

    EuroCup is way better in quality of play than the G league as well - if it matters.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Napa, CA
    Posts
    4,386

    Default

    Thanks, Mojo, for your help. Based on that, seems like a pretty obvious decision. Make 2-3x the money this year, play better basketball, and have the chance to earn even more in future years.
    I will thank God for the day and the moment I have. - Jimmy V

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Lithuania
    Posts
    783

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo13 View Post
    And then there is China - very high pay - often higher than the EuroLeague for ex-NBA players. But a still a very weak league in terms of quality of play. And the NBL in Australia is getting better every year as well.
    A guy who averaged 9 points & 5 rebounds in the Lithuanian league (LKL), got an offer to play for a team in the 2nd Chinese league. He averaged something crazy like 25 points and 15 rebounds there and got paid 4-5 times more than in Lithuania. Chinese teams pay quite a lot for foreign talent.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Hermosa Beach, CA
    Posts
    712

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jstock12 View Post
    A guy who averaged 9 points & 5 rebounds in the Lithuanian league (LKL), got an offer to play for a team in the 2nd Chinese league. He averaged something crazy like 25 points and 15 rebounds there and got paid 4-5 times more than in Lithuania. Chinese teams pay quite a lot for foreign talent.

    Yeah - China is hard to judge. There is a tight quota on foreign talent and the pay is very high for them. But in general the leagues suck. So you here of big names over (lots of ex-NBA guys) there putting up huge stats and getting great money but those teams would get crushed by decent European teams.


    Anyways here is a "Power Ranking" from Eurohoops done on the EuroCup teams (not EuroLeague). There is a JWIII blurb in there as his is the signuture signing for his club. You can see where his club stacks up in the 2nd best Pan-European league. The winner (or top 2?) of the EuroCup moves up to the EuroLeague next season. If JWIII rips it up in the EuroCup a EuroLeague likely will come calling (like what happened with Pangos and NWG).

    https://www.eurohoops.net/en/tradema...gs-volume-1/6/

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Hermosa Beach, CA
    Posts
    712

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo13 View Post
    Yeah - China is hard to judge. There is a tight quota on foreign talent and the pay is very high for them. But in general the leagues suck. So you here of big names over (lots of ex-NBA guys) there putting up huge stats and getting great money but those teams would get crushed by decent European teams.


    Anyways here is a "Power Ranking" from Eurohoops done on the EuroCup teams (not EuroLeague). There is a JWIII blurb in there as his is the signuture signing for his club. You can see where his club stacks up in the 2nd best Pan-European league. The winner (or top 2?) of the EuroCup moves up to the EuroLeague next season. If JWIII rips it up in the EuroCup a EuroLeague likely will come calling (like what happened with Pangos and NWG).

    https://www.eurohoops.net/en/tradema...gs-volume-1/6/

    And here is a Power Ranking for the EuroLeague from EuroHoops.
    https://www.eurohoops.net/en/tradema...ops-vol-1-3/5/

    You can take this as a defacto ranking of the top 18 clubs in Europe (and outside the NBA). If a GU guy is on one of these clubs they are likely at peak pay and competition in Europe. We can be a little loose on that statement as there are some EuroCup clubs and maybe even a Champions League team or two that are just as good (or better) as the bottom clubs in this ranking, and maybe even have a bigger budget. Some of the clubs in EuroLeague are invited into the EuroLeague strategically for the future. Alba Berlin, Asvel (Lyon, France) are examples of the EuroLeague chasing big cities, larger fanbases, with deep pocketed owners and bigger stadiums. They are planning to make the EuroLeague a "closed league" like the NBA in the next couple years (historically the EL has been a comprised of group of clubs having a ten year licence and the rest winning entry from winning domestic leagues or the EuroCup). Expect a team in London at some point as they expand from 18 teams and maybe Paris.
    T

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •