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Thread: This generation Zags vs Zags of 10 to 20 years ago?

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    Default This generation Zags vs Zags of 10 to 20 years ago?

    By this generation I mean from Kelly O's (jr year) team to current. Anything before that is the older generation. As an example how would Calvary, Stepp, Dickau, Morrison teams fare against Sabonis, Clarke,William's Goss,Rui teams? Personally I think it's a mismatch. The players today are simply faster,stronger, more athletic, and defensively superior. Average win would be 10 plus. Thoughts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by YukonJack View Post
    By this generation I mean from Kelly O's (jr year) team to current. Anything before that is the older generation. As an example how would Calvary, Stepp, Dickau, Morrison teams fare against Sabonis, Clarke,William's Goss,Rui teams? Personally I think it's a mismatch. The players today are simply faster,stronger, more athletic, and defensively superior. Average win would be 10 plus. Thoughts?
    Guile vs genes......could be closer than you think.....the earlier guards are superior, the later bigs way superior......

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    Quote Originally Posted by YukonJack View Post
    By this generation I mean from Kelly O's (jr year) team to current. Anything before that is the older generation. As an example how would Calvary, Stepp, Dickau, Morrison teams fare against Sabonis, Clarke,William's Goss,Rui teams? Personally I think it's a mismatch. The players today are simply faster,stronger, more athletic, and defensively superior. Average win would be 10 plus. Thoughts?
    OLD
    Calvary, Santangelo, Dickau, Stepp, Turiaf, Morrison, Batista, Ravio, Bouldin, Sacre, Gray and Pargo
    Starters: (Dickau, Stepp, Morrison, Turiaf and Batista)


    NEW
    Olynyk, Harris, PK, Pangos, Bell, McClellan, Perkins, Wiltjer, Sabonis, Goss, Clarke, and Rui
    Starters: (Goss, Pangos, Rui, Olynyk and Clarke)

    I'm not so sure you would be right in that assumption BUT it would be interesting to watch those teams play...

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    New... think they are just too deep in terms of talent. BUT... it would be a tough and tight game.
    "And Morrison? He did what All-Americans do. He shot daggers in the daylight and stole a win." - Steve Kelley (Seattle Times)

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    Bobo, that OLD starting line-up would have a terrible time a defense. Their defense would HAVE to be offense - and hope to out score the other guys. Turiaf and maybe Stepp are the only two that could really defend, though JP did take up space and was a good rebounder. But Morrison and Dickau... you'd see a lot of guys getting by those two.
    GO ZAGS!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    Guile vs genes......could be closer than you think.....the earlier guards are superior, the later bigs way superior......
    Jazz is spot on.

    The depth in recent frontcourts would be too much to defend, yet the guards & even wings of old would have a field day imo.

    Our best team ever was last year, yet the missing piece was a guard who could create their own offense vs pressure defense.

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    Ammo vs Rui would be cool to see. Ammo scoring at will because he's Ammo, and Rui doing the same because Ammo is just waiting to get the ball back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EEzag View Post
    Ammo vs Rui would be cool to see. Ammo scoring at will because he's Ammo, and Rui doing the same because Ammo is just waiting to get the ball back.
    I’m busting. So true

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    About as well as track athletes from 20 years ago would ….with a few exceptions of course..

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    Thanks for a very good and very fun post Yukonjack: IMO it's not even close. The best TEAM of all time was the '16-'17 team which finished 2nd in the NCAA Tournament, losing in a very close game to North Carolina. The next best teams were either the '99 team which made it to the Elite 8, the '14-'15 team which made it to the Ellite 8, and the 18-'19 team (last year which made it to the Elite 8. So in the last ten years we've had at least 2 teams that made it to the Elite 8 and one team made it to the National Championship Game. That's 3 great teams vs one great team. 3-1 has to go to the modern Zags.

    Even if you look at the All-Stars from both era's I've got to vote the same; the modern Zag All-Stars would be the Old Timers. I also disagree with Jazz about the guards. Nigel NG is the best point guard, all time in my opinion. And then we go to the 2 guard or combo guard who is Perkins. Some of you may be laughing at me, but look at the stats. He was a starting guard on a team which made it to the Finals, and on a team that made it to the Elite 8. And then you have to go with Pangos and Bell, which may be the 2nd best combo guards in the history of Zag basketball. NWG and Bell may be the two top defensive guards that GU has ever had. And now let's look at the first two guard subs (or we could call them wings): Melson and Hart. These are two really, really gutsy tough guys and they both played on GREAT teams.

    All-Start Teams: Only 12 players can make these teams: Old Timers: Dickau, Stepp, Morrison, Turiof, Batista, Santangelo, Bouldin, Heytvelt, Daye, Frahm, Pargo and Pendo.

    Now generation: Nigel NG, , Bell, Steven Gray, Perkins, Mathews for his excellent 3 point shooting and his very tough defense , Sabonis, Clarke, Hachimura, Karnowski, Wiltjer, Collins and Silas Melson. Silas Melson played on two of the three all time best teams. He must get credit for his skills and his toughness. IMO he was as tough as Hart but was a better offensive player.

    Keeping Kevin Pangos off of the All-Star team was really difficult but I had to give the edge for back-up point guard to Perkins. JUst my opinion. And it was for the reason that Perkins played on the two best All-Time teams. Point guard this past year, and combo guard in '16-'17. for these reasons he edges out Pangos.
    Go Zags!!! The Best Is Yet To Come!!!

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    No contest.

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    The biggest difference in the last 5 years or so is depth of talent. The stars 20 years ago would still be stars today, but the 6th man on the recent teams would be the 3rd option back then. The other change is emphasis on defense, which is a change in team philosophy. I think some of the old players could have been better defenders if they had been forced to.

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    I think Casey and Ronny would be just fine against any of the bigs from the last ten years. I also think NWG would destroy Dickau since one of those two players brings value to both ends of the court and the other doesn't/didn't. To me:

    PG NWG vs Dickau = advantage New
    SG Gary Bell vs Stepp = advantage Old (but Bell's defense would be better than Stepp's)
    SF Rui (if we get to change his position from PF - otherwise Jordan Matthews?) vs Ammo = advantage old
    PF Sabonis vs Casey = advantage new (but Casey is more athletic if we are keeping track)
    C Clark vs Turiaf = advantage new (but Turiaf has a lot of size and was NBA athletic as well)

    bPG: Perkins or Pangos vs Santangelo (the most athletic of the group) or Pargo = Advantage ?
    bSG: Norvell then Silas? Matthews? Perkins? vs Gray/Bouldin/Raivio = Advantage Old
    bSF: Dranginis/McClellan/Mike Hart vs Micah Downs/Austin Daye/Bouldin/Knight/etc Advantage Old
    bPF: Wiltjer/Harris/Williams vs Batista/Violette/Mallon/Daye Advantage New
    bC: Olynyk/Shem/Collins/Tillie/Dower/ vs Sacre/Dench/Gourde Advantage New (by a mile)

    If I was putting together 12 man lineups for both squads, I think I'd go something like this:
    New
    G: Goss, Perkins, Pangos, Bell,
    F: Rui, Clark, Williams, Harris
    C: Sabonis, Olynyk, Shem, Wiltjer
    Last Cut: Collins (an NBA Center)

    OLD:
    G: Dickau, Stepp, Pargo, Santangelo
    F: Ammo, Downs, Frahm
    C: Turiaf, Sacre, Batista, Heytvelt, Cavalry
    Last Cut: Bouldin (too similar to Stepp) Hard to leave Gray and Daye off too. Gray could easily displace a number of those guards.

    The old team would have a lot of shooting with Dickau, Frahm, Ammo, Heytvelt and Cavalry on the court at times. Their centers can stretch the floor like modern bigs do (and both of those guys probably would do better in today's NBA) but are athletic rim protectors as well. They'd lack defense and teams would love to face a team where Frahm is the best perimeter defender, by a wide margin, on the floor. For defense they could rotate in Santangelo, Pargo and Downs, get a lot more athletic, and still have a lot of shooting on the floor around their front court. Sacre and Turiaf are both NBA level defenders who can't spread a team out, but would fortify the paint pretty well.

    The new team would have a lot of options. Goss, and whoever at SG would be a good fit. Pangos is the worst defensively of the group, but Perkins and especially Bell could come in if they need to shut down Frahm. At the forwards they would always be a little off because they'd be using PFs or combo guards at that spot. So they could go big (Rui or Harris or even Williams who could defend) or small (Bell - who played their as a junior) but there isn't a natural fit. It'd be tempting to leave Williams out and just put Mike Hart on the roster, the anti-Ammo and see what happens when the greatest mid range scorer we've had goes up against the greatest mid-range defender we've ever had.

    Anyway, to me, I think the new guys win the 7 game series 4 games to 3. They have more options and styles inside. They have more athleticism because there is nobody quite like Clark. And frankly, I think the big difference maker on the perimeter is Goss, not Dickau or Santangelo, or any of the other great guards we've had. Goss contributed in every facet of the game and would be a nightmare matchup for any of the past guards (just like he was for basically everyone we went against in 2017). Combine his PG skills with Clark and Sabonis cleaning up around the rim and I think they edge out the old guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarenyon View Post
    Bobo, that OLD starting line-up would have a terrible time a defense. Their defense would HAVE to be offense - and hope to out score the other guys. Turiaf and maybe Stepp are the only two that could really defend, though JP did take up space and was a good rebounder. But Morrison and Dickau... you'd see a lot of guys getting by those two.
    +1
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    Not a single "new" team with Karnowski on it? the all-time winningest player in NCAA history? lolz

    The "new" crop of talent is on average considerably better than the "old" crop, but there are a handful of guys in the old crop that would more than hold their own against the new crop. Frahm is still the best GU wing of the last 20 years. Calvary starts on any lineup GU has. Same for Ronny. the only year it's even a debate is 18/19.

    Santangelo is a better guard than most as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rennis View Post
    Not a single "new" team with Karnowski on it? the all-time winningest player in NCAA history? lolz
    Shem = Karnowski

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    Quote Originally Posted by rennis View Post
    Not a single "new" team with Karnowski on it? the all-time winningest player in NCAA history? lolz

    The "new" crop of talent is on average considerably better than the "old" crop, but there are a handful of guys in the old crop that would more than hold their own against the new crop. Frahm is still the best GU wing of the last 20 years. Calvary starts on any lineup GU has. Same for Ronny. the only year it's even a debate is 18/19.

    Santangelo is a better guard than most as well.
    Sorry! Karnowski is on my New Generation team, and he deserves to be. Maybe you are someone who doesn't view my posts.
    Go Zags!!! The Best Is Yet To Come!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rennis View Post
    Not a single "new" team with Karnowski on it? the all-time winningest player in NCAA history? lolz

    The "new" crop of talent is on average considerably better than the "old" crop, but there are a handful of guys in the old crop that would more than hold their own against the new crop. Frahm is still the best GU wing of the last 20 years. Calvary starts on any lineup GU has. Same for Ronny. the only year it's even a debate is 18/19.

    Santangelo is a better guard than most as well.
    OLD
    Calvary, Santangelo, Dickau, Stepp, Turiaf, Morrison, Batista, Ravio, Bouldin, Sacre, Gray and Pargo
    Starters: (Dickau, Stepp, Morrison, Turiaf and Batista)


    NEW
    Olynyk, Harris, PK, Pangos, Bell, McClellan, Perkins, Wiltjer, Sabonis, Goss, Clarke, and Rui
    Starters: (Goss, Pangos, Rui, Olynyk and Clarke)

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    Steven Gray played on the 2010-2011 season, along with Sacre, Harris, Olynick, Dower, Carter, Goodson, Stockton. That's why I put him on the New Generation All-Star team.
    Go Zags!!! The Best Is Yet To Come!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reborn View Post
    Steven Gray played on the 2010-2011 season, along with Sacre, Harris, Olynick, Dower, Carter, Goodson, Stockton. That's why I put him on the New Generation All-Star team.
    I would replace NWG with Rem although an argument could be made for NWG. If Rem hadn't forgone his NBA career for that Waco life style everyone would have him down as the #1 PG.

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    One of the biggest differences is that Few learned how to teach team defense from coaching the national teams with Coach K. The reason for this change might not be Coach K but the timing is about the same time. Few then started recruiting better with more athletic defenders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reborn View Post
    Steven Gray played on the 2010-2011 season, along with Sacre, Harris, Olynick, Dower, Carter, Goodson, Stockton. That's why I put him on the New Generation All-Star team.
    Reborn, the parameters for choosing players for these teams are as follows:

    By this generation I mean from Kelly O's (jr year) team to current. Anything before that is the older generation. As an example how would Calvary, Stepp, Dickau, Morrison teams fare against Sabonis, Clarke,William's Goss,Rui teams? Personally I think it's a mismatch. The players today are simply faster,stronger, more athletic, and defensively superior. Average win would be 10 plus. Thoughts?

    KO's Junior year was his last year at GU...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogozags View Post
    Reborn, the parameters for choosing players for these teams are as follows:

    By this generation I mean from Kelly O's (jr year) team to current. Anything before that is the older generation. As an example how would Calvary, Stepp, Dickau, Morrison teams fare against Sabonis, Clarke,William's Goss,Rui teams? Personally I think it's a mismatch. The players today are simply faster,stronger, more athletic, and defensively superior. Average win would be 10 plus. Thoughts?

    KO's Junior year was his last year at GU...
    Age before beauty, I believe the players that played through their senior year not counting Morrison (junior) would do a schooling of the newer folks. One on one maybe not but as a group something to be said.

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    Thanks for making this a worthwhile thread. In addition why is that I gravitate towards Stepp, Raivio,Gray, Frahm, and Clarke ? It must mean humbleness I guess. I used to be the opposite and when a life changing moment came about I slowly strived to be like these special 5. Even if older there is always something to learn from younger people.

    Getting back to the lists. I would like to have somebody make a new in depth top 25 players list over the last 20. Somebody many years ago did a real nice list here with a top 25 but had a writeup on the players describing the reason why.

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    eventually, we're all going to realize-- any team with clarke would win. the differences everywhere else come out in the wash. he's the transcendent player in the group, with sabonis a distant 2nd.

    eta: give it a couple years, though, and no one will be arguing this anymore. you can downplay one transcendent player, but we may have another 2-3 coming in.

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