This generation Zags vs Zags of 10 to 20 years ago?

[mgadfly]

Not a single "new" team with Karnowski on it? the all-time winningest player in NCAA history? lolz

Shem = Karnowski

[Reborn]

Not a single "new" team with Karnowski on it? the all-time winningest player in NCAA history? lolz

The "new" crop of talent is on average considerably better than the "old" crop, but there are a handful of guys in the old crop that would more than hold their own against the new crop. Frahm is still the best GU wing of the last 20 years. Calvary starts on any lineup GU has. Same for Ronny. the only year it's even a debate is 18/19.

Santangelo is a better guard than most as well.

Sorry! Karnowski is on my New Generation team, and he deserves to be. Maybe you are someone who doesn't view my posts.

[Bogozags]

Not a single "new" team with Karnowski on it? the all-time winningest player in NCAA history? lolz

The "new" crop of talent is on average considerably better than the "old" crop, but there are a handful of guys in the old crop that would more than hold their own against the new crop. Frahm is still the best GU wing of the last 20 years. Calvary starts on any lineup GU has. Same for Ronny. the only year it's even a debate is 18/19.

Santangelo is a better guard than most as well.

OLD
Calvary, Santangelo, Dickau, Stepp, Turiaf, Morrison, Batista, Ravio, Bouldin, Sacre, Gray and Pargo
Starters: (Dickau, Stepp, Morrison, Turiaf and Batista)


NEW
Olynyk, Harris, PK, Pangos, Bell, McClellan, Perkins, Wiltjer, Sabonis, Goss, Clarke, and Rui
Starters: (Goss, Pangos, Rui, Olynyk and Clarke)

[Reborn]

Steven Gray played on the 2010-2011 season, along with Sacre, Harris, Olynick, Dower, Carter, Goodson, Stockton. That's why I put him on the New Generation All-Star team.

[basketballzag]

Steven Gray played on the 2010-2011 season, along with Sacre, Harris, Olynick, Dower, Carter, Goodson, Stockton. That's why I put him on the New Generation All-Star team.

I would replace NWG with Rem although an argument could be made for NWG. If Rem hadn't forgone his NBA career for that Waco life style everyone would have him down as the #1 PG.

[GoZag]

One of the biggest differences is that Few learned how to teach team defense from coaching the national teams with Coach K. The reason for this change might not be Coach K but the timing is about the same time. Few then started recruiting better with more athletic defenders.

[Bogozags]

Steven Gray played on the 2010-2011 season, along with Sacre, Harris, Olynick, Dower, Carter, Goodson, Stockton. That's why I put him on the New Generation All-Star team.

Reborn, the parameters for choosing players for these teams are as follows:

By this generation I mean from Kelly O's (jr year) team to current. Anything before that is the older generation. As an example how would Calvary, Stepp, Dickau, Morrison teams fare against Sabonis, Clarke,William's Goss,Rui teams? Personally I think it's a mismatch. The players today are simply faster,stronger, more athletic, and defensively superior. Average win would be 10 plus. Thoughts?

KO's Junior year was his last year at GU...

[Zagcity]

Reborn, the parameters for choosing players for these teams are as follows:

By this generation I mean from Kelly O's (jr year) team to current. Anything before that is the older generation. As an example how would Calvary, Stepp, Dickau, Morrison teams fare against Sabonis, Clarke,William's Goss,Rui teams? Personally I think it's a mismatch. The players today are simply faster,stronger, more athletic, and defensively superior. Average win would be 10 plus. Thoughts?

KO's Junior year was his last year at GU...

Age before beauty, I believe the players that played through their senior year not counting Morrison (junior) would do a schooling of the newer folks. One on one maybe not but as a group something to be said.

[YukonJack]

Thanks for making this a worthwhile thread. In addition why is that I gravitate towards Stepp, Raivio,Gray, Frahm, and Clarke ? It must mean humbleness I guess. I used to be the opposite and when a life changing moment came about I slowly strived to be like these special 5. Even if older there is always something to learn from younger people.

Getting back to the lists. I would like to have somebody make a new in depth top 25 players list over the last 20. Somebody many years ago did a real nice list here with a top 25 but had a writeup on the players describing the reason why.

[soccerdud]

eventually, we're all going to realize-- any team with clarke would win. the differences everywhere else come out in the wash. he's the transcendent player in the group, with sabonis a distant 2nd.

eta: give it a couple years, though, and no one will be arguing this anymore. you can downplay one transcendent player, but we may have another 2-3 coming in.

[Zags11]

I think Casey and Ronny would be just fine against any of the bigs from the last ten years. I also think NWG would destroy Dickau since one of those two players brings value to both ends of the court and the other doesn't/didn't. To me:

PG NWG vs Dickau = advantage New
SG Gary Bell vs Stepp = advantage Old (but Bell's defense would be better than Stepp's)
SF Rui (if we get to change his position from PF - otherwise Jordan Matthews?) vs Ammo = advantage old
PF Sabonis vs Casey = advantage new (but Casey is more athletic if we are keeping track)
C Clark vs Turiaf = advantage new (but Turiaf has a lot of size and was NBA athletic as well)

bPG: Perkins or Pangos vs Santangelo (the most athletic of the group) or Pargo = Advantage ?
bSG: Norvell then Silas? Matthews? Perkins? vs Gray/Bouldin/Raivio = Advantage Old
bSF: Dranginis/McClellan/Mike Hart vs Micah Downs/Austin Daye/Bouldin/Knight/etc Advantage Old
bPF: Wiltjer/Harris/Williams vs Batista/Violette/Mallon/Daye Advantage New
bC: Olynyk/Shem/Collins/Tillie/Dower/ vs Sacre/Dench/Gourde Advantage New (by a mile)

If I was putting together 12 man lineups for both squads, I think I'd go something like this:
New
G: Goss, Perkins, Pangos, Bell,
F: Rui, Clark, Williams, Harris
C: Sabonis, Olynyk, Shem, Wiltjer
Last Cut: Collins (an NBA Center)

OLD:
G: Dickau, Stepp, Pargo, Santangelo
F: Ammo, Downs, Frahm
C: Turiaf, Sacre, Batista, Heytvelt, Cavalry
Last Cut: Bouldin (too similar to Stepp) Hard to leave Gray and Daye off too. Gray could easily displace a number of those guards.

The old team would have a lot of shooting with Dickau, Frahm, Ammo, Heytvelt and Cavalry on the court at times. Their centers can stretch the floor like modern bigs do (and both of those guys probably would do better in today's NBA) but are athletic rim protectors as well. They'd lack defense and teams would love to face a team where Frahm is the best perimeter defender, by a wide margin, on the floor. For defense they could rotate in Santangelo, Pargo and Downs, get a lot more athletic, and still have a lot of shooting on the floor around their front court. Sacre and Turiaf are both NBA level defenders who can't spread a team out, but would fortify the paint pretty well.

The new team would have a lot of options. Goss, and whoever at SG would be a good fit. Pangos is the worst defensively of the group, but Perkins and especially Bell could come in if they need to shut down Frahm. At the forwards they would always be a little off because they'd be using PFs or combo guards at that spot. So they could go big (Rui or Harris or even Williams who could defend) or small (Bell - who played their as a junior) but there isn't a natural fit. It'd be tempting to leave Williams out and just put Mike Hart on the roster, the anti-Ammo and see what happens when the greatest mid range scorer we've had goes up against the greatest mid-range defender we've ever had.

Anyway, to me, I think the new guys win the 7 game series 4 games to 3. They have more options and styles inside. They have more athleticism because there is nobody quite like Clark. And frankly, I think the big difference maker on the perimeter is Goss, not Dickau or Santangelo, or any of the other great guards we've had. Goss contributed in every facet of the game and would be a nightmare matchup for any of the past guards (just like he was for basically everyone we went against in 2017). Combine his PG skills with Clark and Sabonis cleaning up around the rim and I think they edge out the old guys.

Dickau is getting his points. Now on defense, Goss is posting up but dickau is getting his.

Im taking stepp over bell. (Unless march)

Rui vs ammo? Thats super tough. Ammo is going off for offense. I give edge to ammo.

Ill take sabonis over casey slightly.

Ill take brandon over turiaf with ease.

[GoZags]

Few, Tommy, Brian and Donnie/Roger are head and shoulders above Few, Billy, Leon and Tommy of two decades ago.

[bartruff1]

No way

What are those old guys.....35.....40 ???? The kids would blow them away....even in half court....

[maynard g krebs]

I think it's a close game if we're talking about all the players as Zags, because the old timers all played as seniors, w/ the exception of Adam. Now a ton of guys leave early. I think senior Calvary holds his own w/ soph Sabonis, and senior Turiaf does fine v fr Collins, senior Frahm v soph Norvell,etc. No question there's more talent now, but the guys who laid the foundation were smart, tough, skilled, and together. Not an easy out.

[bballbeachbum]

the team with Karno and Collins wins imo. Karno as impactful a college player as I've seen, did it with different backcourts, won. Put him on last year's team, the missing link, play him vs. UCLA, we win that game

J3 not getting enough love. He starts for me on the new gen team somewhere, a college stud with his ability to defend any position. I remember his D play at the end of the WV game during winning time. No National Championship game without that. Love Domas but he couldn't do that

I know that's sacrilege here