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Thread: O Ye of Little Faith

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo13 View Post
    Read recently that there are over 230 Early Entry declarations for the 2019 NBA Draft. I think the deadline to declare was last night. The vast majority of these kids will be returning to school.

    With the new rule changes there is virtually no harm for a player to declare.
    I hope some nationally well known and respected sports journalist will take a deep dive look at this new reality of college players being able to declare early, hire an agent, test the waters and still return to school as long as they withdraw by May 29th. Once it has played out, do a thorough analysis of the what it means practically: how many declared early; how many of those players got invited to combine and/or to work out for NBA team(s); how many declared but got no such meaningful feedback/opportunity; what % of early declared got drafted, what % returned to school etc etc.

    “Why not test the waters and get some feedback” sounds like a no brainer in theory, but 230 is a big #. How beneficial is it, or is it even detrimental, for those who get nada in terms of combine invite or opportunity to work out for a team?

    Take it another step and get anonymous feedback from their college coaches: how does it impact recruiting (does it)?; how does it impact team dynamics?; do they simply tell any underclassmen player of theirs who wants to to go ahead and test the waters?

    I’m very curious about the ripple effects, pros and cons of this new reality.
    It is their time....their team...I just get to watch. - Bartruff1

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by GonzagasaurusFlex View Post
    I hope some nationally well known and respected sports journalist will take a deep dive look at this new reality of college players being able to declare early, hire an agent, test the waters and still return to school as long as they withdraw by May 29th. Once it has played out, do a thorough analysis of the what it means practically: how many declared early; how many of those players got invited to combine and/or to work out for NBA team(s); how many declared but got no such meaningful feedback/opportunity; what % of early declared got drafted, what % returned to school etc etc.

    “Why not test the waters and get some feedback” sounds like a no brainer in theory, but 230 is a big #. How beneficial is it, or is it even detrimental, for those who get nada in terms of combine invite or opportunity to work out for a team?

    Take it another step and get anonymous feedback from their college coaches: how does it impact recruiting (does it)?; how does it impact team dynamics?; do they simply tell any underclassmen player of theirs who wants to to go ahead and test the waters?

    I’m very curious about the ripple effects, pros and cons of this new reality.
    Doesn't Gonzaga have a Professional Sports Management MBA program that does this type of research? or should have )

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by GonzagasaurusFlex View Post
    I hope some nationally well known and respected sports journalist will take a deep dive look at this new reality of college players being able to declare early, hire an agent, test the waters and still return to school as long as they withdraw by May 29th. Once it has played out, do a thorough analysis of the what it means practically: how many declared early; how many of those players got invited to combine and/or to work out for NBA team(s); how many declared but got no such meaningful feedback/opportunity; what % of early declared got drafted, what % returned to school etc etc.

    “Why not test the waters and get some feedback” sounds like a no brainer in theory, but 230 is a big #. How beneficial is it, or is it even detrimental, for those who get nada in terms of combine invite or opportunity to work out for a team?

    Take it another step and get anonymous feedback from their college coaches: how does it impact recruiting (does it)?; how does it impact team dynamics?; do they simply tell any underclassmen player of theirs who wants to to go ahead and test the waters?

    I’m very curious about the ripple effects, pros and cons of this new reality.
    Yes, great points.

    I especially share the view that this has expanded such now that "get good feedback" becomes near irrelevant. When you're one of hundreds, how many people are going to give you feedback? And in my mind, there's little that is more dangerous than getting feedback from only one or two people. They might mean well, they might not. They might read it right, they might not.

    Only way to get feedback that is valuable is get 12-15 or more people weighing in on where you stand.
    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
    Mark Twain.

  4. #29
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    Out of those 230, I suspect over 150 of them will receive body blows to their egos. There's not enough turnover in the NBA to accommodate half of these prospects.

    There hasn't been much talk of NBA expansion...it appears to me the focus will be on growing the G League, and expanding their international footprint (Mexico City for starters). In the era of the superteam, expansion will do nothing but grow the number of teams that don't stand a chance in hell of winning a title.

  5. #30
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    Have we seen anything different of value that our guys have brought back from going there in the past and returning?
    To Fish & Game: Keep streams stocked well for Mr. Few!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrizZAG View Post
    Have we seen anything different of value that our guys have brought back from going there in the past and returning?
    Only happened with JW3, and he did work on his game, though not sure how much it really helped. Hard to know
    21 Straight Big Dances

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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzagafan62 View Post
    Only happened with JW3, and he did work on his game, though not sure how much it really helped. Hard to know
    it really doesn't have that much to do with a guy's game...they know what they need to work on. it's more about going through the process and learning where they stand/getting comfortable with everything...and hey, the sports industry is a big business and this is a great networking opportunity.

  8. #33
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    The problem is that the entire starting group has either graduated or declared...Yeah I know that Kispert hasn't left, but many here believe that JJ should have been the starter.

    It is easy to see where the angst comes from. I mean, it isn't as though this coaching staff has any kind of track record. And then you get the naysayers like GoZags that tell us that that same staff believes that Ravet will be the starting PG and will do a good job, along with not one, but two potential grad transfers.

    Why would any normal fan disregard ALL that and not panic?
    Hoping you have a sense of humor too!

  9. #34
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    Speaking for myself, I am a GU fan but also a fan of CBB and the last 12-18 months have seen a wave of lamentable events that have cast a pall on the game. Now comes full blown this new paradigm of just about any breathing D1 player declaring for at least an MRI at the hands of the NBA. What is it now, 300 would be, early departees? That's nonsense and additionally taints the game, IMO. At home here, we have 3 kids who should go, there is money there. Then we have a very nice college player who got an unprecedented leash from Few and now and then delivered on that. He's not in any top 60 that I have seen. On the heels of that, our 8th man with a world of talent but very little in the way of development declares as well. Yes, this is the new world order, but I don't have to like it. So I am still 100% behind Few and Co., we will be fine. But the game I have loved all my life, well, is sick.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    Speaking for myself, I am a GU fan but also a fan of CBB and the last 12-18 months have seen a wave of lamentable events that have cast a pall on the game. Now comes full blown this new paradigm of just about any breathing D1 player declaring for at least an MRI at the hands of the NBA. What is it now, 300 would be, early departees? That's nonsense and additionally taints the game, IMO. At home here, we have 3 kids who should go, there is money there. Then we have a very nice college player who got an unprecedented leash from Few and now and then delivered on that. He's not in any top 60 that I have seen. On the heels of that, our 8th man with a world of talent but very little in the way of development declares as well. Yes, this is the new world order, but I don't have to like it. So I am still 100% behind Few and Co., we will be fine. But the game I have loved all my life, well, is sick.
    Jazz ol buddy... all about the ducats....filthy lucre... basketball is a TEAM sport.... IMO the money has put a big fat invisible I in the Middle of TEAM.... what used to be about us and we is fast becoming about me... It is an institutional issue that sadly is only going to get worse... Thank God for GU and I mean that.... I too am a fan of the game but only one TEAM is my TEAM.... "In Few We Trust" win lose or draw... Zags 100% always...

    Go!! Zags!!!
    "Learn from the past, Plan for the future, Live in the Now!"

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    Speaking for myself, I am a GU fan but also a fan of CBB and the last 12-18 months have seen a wave of lamentable events that have cast a pall on the game. Now comes full blown this new paradigm of just about any breathing D1 player declaring for at least an MRI at the hands of the NBA. What is it now, 300 would be, early departees? That's nonsense and additionally taints the game, IMO. At home here, we have 3 kids who should go, there is money there. Then we have a very nice college player who got an unprecedented leash from Few and now and then delivered on that. He's not in any top 60 that I have seen. On the heels of that, our 8th man with a world of talent but very little in the way of development declares as well. Yes, this is the new world order, but I don't have to like it. So I am still 100% behind Few and Co., we will be fine. But the game I have loved all my life, well, is sick.
    I have a partial solution to your woes, jazz. Hop in the car and take a drive 20 miles south to Oceanside. Spend an hour or two at the tasting room for Holmes Estate Cellars. I think I spent $15 for one of their tasting flights, and I ended up shipping half a case (mixed) back to Texas. My daughter loved the Sauvignon Blanc, and all of the 3 Shiraz vintages were spectacular.

    I spent two hours there, while Mrs. TZF and Big D were exploring the beach. It was the perfect respite after two days at Legoland, and in transit to Anaheim. You have beautiful weather out there, jazz, and the balmy ocean breezes were the perfect antidote to a typical brutal North Texas summer.

    Back to hoops: although it would take just one team to tell Filip they'll draft him (as a project, on a team looking to tank next season), I just don't see that happening. Filip's development will be hastened next year by the newcomers, and not having to play behind two (potential) lottery picks.

    As I said before, probably 150 of those entrants are going to have their bubble burst when they talk with various scouts.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasZagFan View Post
    I have a partial solution to your woes, jazz. Hop in the car and take a drive 20 miles south to Oceanside. Spend an hour or two at the tasting room for Holmes Estate Cellars. I think I spent $15 for one of their tasting flights, and I ended up shipping half a case (mixed) back to Texas. My daughter loved the Sauvignon Blanc, and all of the 3 Shiraz vintages were spectacular.

    I spent two hours there, while Mrs. TZF and Big D were exploring the beach. It was the perfect respite after two days at Legoland, and in transit to Anaheim. You have beautiful weather out there, jazz, and the balmy ocean breezes were the perfect antidote to a typical brutal North Texas summer.

    Back to hoops: although it would take just one team to tell Filip they'll draft him (as a project, on a team looking to tank next season), I just don't see that happening. Filip's development will be hastened next year by the newcomers, and not having to play behind two (potential) lottery picks.

    As I said before, probably 150 of those entrants are going to have their bubble burst when they talk with various scouts.
    Thanks for the tip (O'side is north; LaJolla, Torrey Pines slightly south ......Just came back from the beach. Zonies and spring breakers still evident. Still, plenty of room for everyone. Next time you're here, call me......On Petrol, yea, that's what I was thinking. OK, he might have a beef, not getting much run. But Zach, all that slack.....no loyalty to Few? C'mon....Just bothers me.....Hope your boy Timmy doesn't split after a yr.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongIslandZagFan View Post
    Complaints about polly-annas stifling negative nancys coming in 3... 2... 1...
    Well, to be a little fair, there's nothing wrong with good-faith questions about whether the team will struggle significantly with youth. I find it boring to hear just how great we are with every post. I might wholly agree we're great, still worth looking at a counter argument.

    I am sure you're fine with that. Just pointing it out.
    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
    Mark Twain.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigblahla View Post
    Jazz ol buddy... all about the ducats....filthy lucre... basketball is a TEAM sport.... IMO the money has put a big fat invisible I in the Middle of TEAM.... what used to be about us and we is fast becoming about me... It is an institutional issue that sadly is only going to get worse... Thank God for GU and I mean that.... I too am a fan of the game but only one TEAM is my TEAM.... "In Few We Trust" win lose or draw... Zags 100% always...

    Go!! Zags!!!
    Really enjoying everyone’s comments on this new world of unfettered testing of NBA waters. Bigblahla, agrée w what you’re saying here. I’d add that the inherent tension any D1 coach has to live in - wanting what’s best for each individual player AND what is best for the team / program / school - becomes heightened as the talent you recruit improves. 4 & 5 star players are using the school as stage upon which to earn a draft pick..nothing wrong w that; it is what it is. This ain’t no slipper still fits Gonzaga anymore; I love that and rue that all at once.
    It is their time....their team...I just get to watch. - Bartruff1

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    Speaking for myself, I am a GU fan but also a fan of CBB and the last 12-18 months have seen a wave of lamentable events that have cast a pall on the game. Now comes full blown this new paradigm of just about any breathing D1 player declaring for at least an MRI at the hands of the NBA. What is it now, 300 would be, early departees? That's nonsense and additionally taints the game, IMO. At home here, we have 3 kids who should go, there is money there. Then we have a very nice college player who got an unprecedented leash from Few and now and then delivered on that. He's not in any top 60 that I have seen. On the heels of that, our 8th man with a world of talent but very little in the way of development declares as well. Yes, this is the new world order, but I don't have to like it. So I am still 100% behind Few and Co., we will be fine. But the game I have loved all my life, well, is sick.
    Agree, if anything the window from declare to final decision needs to get smaller
    I am working on being a more all around square.

  16. #41
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    Perhaps you could have each team pick 5 guys (or some arbitrary number) to invite into the draft process. It’s simialr to what’s going on with the camp invites but would keep 250+ guys from spinning their wheels by declaring when nobody is really interested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JPtheBeasta View Post
    Perhaps you could have each team pick 5 guys (or some arbitrary number) to invite into the draft process. It’s simialr to what’s going on with the camp invites but would keep 250+ guys from spinning their wheels by declaring when nobody is really interested.
    But these 300 kids all think they’re gonna be pros. From the 4th grade they’ve heard this. Enabled and coddled by the toxic AAU environment. Playing on 3 or 4 different travel teams.....at the same time. Loyalty is just not something they’ve been exposed to or learned about.

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    I don't see a problem ...the kids should have every opportunity to pursue their ambitions....just like everyone else...

    There have been dozens of players that have left Gonzaga for a opportunity to play for another program...no one is ever upset about that.... it is only the players YOU want to stay for your own selfish reasons ...should Clarke have stayed at San Jose ??? Of course not. Should Wade have stayed at Gonzaga ??? Of course not...

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    It seems to be a foregone conclusion that Tillie will not be back even if he does nothing in the draft. Why? Has he said he was going back to Europe if NBA doesn't work out? And Norvell, IMO he hasn't shown NBA level skill yet. If he doesn't get a look will he be gone for certain either way? His goodbye message was a little disconcerting actually because I don't see him cutting the mustard just yet so where's he going? Maybe he knows he isn't NBA material and perhaps thinks he needs to make a move to generate income one way or another??
    Both of these guys would have a giant role if they return. I hope they do.
    To Fish & Game: Keep streams stocked well for Mr. Few!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrizZAG View Post
    It seems to be a foregone conclusion that Tillie will not be back even if he does nothing in the draft. Why? Has he said he was going back to Europe if NBA doesn't work out? And Norvell, IMO he hasn't shown NBA level skill yet. If he doesn't get a look will he be gone for certain either way? His goodbye message was a little disconcerting actually because I don't see him cutting the mustard just yet so where's he going? Maybe he knows he isn't NBA material and perhaps thinks he needs to make a move to generate income one way or another??
    Both of these guys would have a giant role if they return. I hope they do.
    There was a lot of talk by someone (maybe plural, I don’t recall) since almost day one that he didn’t like school and was going pro early, even if that meant Europe. Given his pro volleyball pedigree, he has options if he wants them.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartruff1 View Post
    I don't see a problem ...the kids should have every opportunity to pursue their ambitions....just like everyone else...

    There have been dozens of players that have left Gonzaga for a opportunity to play for another program...no one is ever upset about that.... it is only the players YOU want to stay for your own selfish reasons ...should Clarke have stayed at San Jose ??? Of course not. Should Wade have stayed at Gonzaga ??? Of course not...
    You are missing the point many are raising here. Nobody is saying players shouldn’t have the opportunity to pursue their ambitions. The issue is that w the new rules there is now damn near 300 underclassmen who have declared for the NBA draft. The NBA typically invites 70-80 players to the NBA combine, so how many of these early entries are actually going to get quality (accurate, true, wise) feedback that will benefit them in making an informed decision about leaving college early and surrendering the opportunity to get a degree tuition free. Also, how does it impact college recruiting, team dynamics etc
    It is their time....their team...I just get to watch. - Bartruff1

  22. #47
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    That is one of the points ..I'm not missing it at all....I don't have any problem with that .... I don't care if a 1000 want to attend....the NBA can sort it out... ..as TZF points out, most will get a valuable lesson in reality...

    Those that cannot get to the NBA Combine ….. can return to school …...or play in a lesser professional league....good for them..... It is what it is...

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    I see nothing wrong with these Zags wanting to get feedback about their game, and what they need to do in the next year to put themselves into a better spot to be drafted. I look back some years when Harris did just that. I think he may have been the first Zag to do that. Others followed that trend. I don't see where it hurt either those players who "checked that out" nor did it hurt the team. It certainly never hurt our recruiting as our recruiting is at an all time high. After finals are over there won't be much going on for these guys; so why not do something that could be a good experience and fun.

    I know. I almost always look at the bright side of things. That's just who I am.

    Go Zags!!!
    Go Zags!!! The Best Is Yet To Come!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DixieZag View Post
    Well, to be a little fair, there's nothing wrong with good-faith questions about whether the team will struggle significantly with youth. I find it boring to hear just how great we are with every post. I might wholly agree we're great, still worth looking at a counter argument.

    I am sure you're fine with that. Just pointing it out.
    I agree. In the event the Zags are unable to land a PG transfer (which hopefully will not happen), I find those blithely assuming that a true freshman point guard can step in and run a championship level program without a hitch to be operating at a high level of wishful thinking. Could it happen? Maybe. But the transition from high school ball to high level college ball is a huge step up, especially at the PG position.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartruff1 View Post
    That is one of the points ..I'm not missing it at all....I don't have any problem with that .... I don't care if a 1000 want to attend....the NBA can sort it out... ..as TZF points out, most will get a valuable lesson in reality...

    Those that cannot get to the NBA Combine ….. can return to school …...or play in a lesser professional league....good for them..... It is what it is...
    I think it's more about causing excessive worry in obsessive fan bases (this includes myself) who probably put too much emotional investment in the decisions of 20-year-olds playing a sport. I really want Norvell to come back, but I wouldn't blame for jumping with the uncertainty around the team next year. He's already seen the college basketball promised land and fell just short of getting in-- and he may be wandering around the wilderness next year with a goal of just making the tournament.

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