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Thread: What do you think about this; getting “Higginsed”?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by caduceus View Post
    That's not how it works. Averaged over a season.
    Ok, so in layman's terms, how do you interpret this:

    On the season, Texas Tech was 195th in the country in foul rate, fouling on over 25% of their possessions.

    Tonight, playing against the country’s best offense and with John Higgins on the whistle, that number was 19.44%.

    How does that compare to the rest of the country? Notre Dame led the nation this season with a foul rate of 20.3%.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by thespywhozaggedme View Post
    Ok, so in layman's terms, how do you interpret this:

    On the season, Texas Tech was 195th in the country in foul rate, fouling on over 25% of their possessions.

    Tonight, playing against the country’s best offense and with John Higgins on the whistle, that number was 19.44%.

    How does that compare to the rest of the country? Notre Dame led the nation this season with a foul rate of 20.3%.
    First off, TTU fouls on 22.6% of their possessions, not "over 25%". That's good for #187 nationally. Middle of the pack.

    Second, the Zags' opponents this season fouled the Zags 22.8% of the time.

    Third, those numbers are mean averages, where one game might be 28%, and the next 18%. All those numbers make up a distribution (like a bell curve). You'd have to get the season stats for fouls/play and figure out if 19.44 deviates far out their normal distribution. My guess is it's highly probable that it's not.

    Edit: Were there bad calls? Absolutely. Did the Zags have some bad luck and TTU some good luck? Definitely -- the ball (and numerous calls) bounced in favor of TTU more than not. Am I pissed? You bet. But I think the issue in this thread is on shaky ground.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by caduceus View Post
    First off, TTU fouls on 22.6% of their possessions, not "over 25%". That's good for #187 nationally. Middle of the pack.

    Second, the Zags' opponents this season fouled the Zags 22.8% of the time.

    Third, those numbers are mean averages, where one game might be 28%, and the next 18%. All those numbers make up a distribution (like a bell curve). You'd have to get the season stats for fouls/play and figure out if 19.44 deviates far out their normal distribution. My guess is it's highly probable that it's not.
    Uh...I did say “Layman’s” terms. LOL

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by thespywhozaggedme View Post
    Uh...I did say “Layman’s” terms. LOL
    Well perhaps you shouldn't be making this argument if you don't understand the numbers or a standard distribution. All I'm saying is it's probable that TTU's fouls/play in this single game is not all that unusual.

    (see my edit above as well in case you missed it)

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    Quote Originally Posted by caduceus View Post
    Well perhaps you shouldn't be making this argument if you don't understand the numbers or a standard distribution. All I'm saying is it's probable that TTU's fouls/play in this single game is not all that unusual.

    (see my edit above as well in case you missed it)
    Why did you see fit to insult me? I wasn’t being rude or insulting, I genuinely wanted to understand. I don’t have an engineer/statisticians type of mind, so I was asking you to “dumb it down”. You didn’t have to be rude or mean about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thespywhozaggedme View Post
    Why did you see fit to insult me? I wasn’t being rude or insulting, I genuinely wanted to understand. I don’t have an engineer/statisticians type of mind, so I was asking you to “dumb it down”. You didn’t have to be rude or mean about it.
    For Pete's sake, that wasn't an insult. It was a suggestion that if you're not sure about the validity of the numerical argument, then it's probably not a great idea to argue in favor of it.

    Say, in five games, a team made 2,3,2,1 and 15 blocks respectively. The mean (or average) would be about 5 blocks per game (4.6 precisely). Do you see the outlier? One of those numbers is outside what would be their normal distribution. If you don't know the raw numbers, then someone's going to think they get five blocks every game, which obviously they don't.

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    All I can say is that I have not seen Mark Few more pissed at an official than he was at that African American ref. The only reason he didn't get a technical is that he probably didn't cuss. Wouldn't be shocked if Few launches a complaint to the NCAA coordinator of officials. He's been one of the leaders in this campaign to rid college basketball of physicality....the chucking of cutters, hand slapping, etc. Gonzaga deserved to lose due to their turnovers, substandard PG play, and a number of other factors, but Higgins and his crew need to be sent to officiating camp before they are allowed to ref in the tourney again. I could care less about how many final fours he's been at. There is a lot of patronage in officiating. Plus, some coaches like a guy like Higgins because at least they know what they are going to be getting. Or maybe their team is physical. But it's bad for the game.

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    I mentioned to my wife that when I turned the tv on, I was hoping to see a basketball game. What the refs allowed was just not basketball. It's unfortunate for the Zags, but also unfortunate for everyone that turned in to see actual skill. That just wasn't basketball the way it was supposed to be played within the rules. The announcers loved on the "quick hands" but most were clearly attributed to a reach in or rake over the arms.

    That said, aside from any real "dirty" play, of which I didn't see any, I would have liked to see the Zags match what the refs were allowing. Now, that isn't the way I would like to see the Zags play every game (Few has too much pride and class), but a change in game plan to play to the physicality that the terrible refs didn't see a problem with is often warranted in the tournament. We have seen it multiple times and worry about it every year. Sometimes you just have to play with the "the refs can't call it every time" mindset. This is the way Tech came into the game. Four very quick fouls and the refs get used to it and stop calling it so often.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by gobroncsgozags View Post
    I mentioned to my wife that when I turned the tv on, I was hoping to see a basketball game. What the refs allowed was just not basketball. It's unfortunate for the Zags, but also unfortunate for everyone that turned in to see actual skill. That just wasn't basketball the way it was supposed to be played within the rules. The announcers loved on the "quick hands" but most were clearly attributed to a reach in or rake over the arms.

    That said, aside from any real "dirty" play, of which I didn't see any, I would have liked to see the Zags match what the refs were allowing. Now, that isn't the way I would like to see the Zags play every game (Few has too much pride and class), but a change in game plan to play to the physicality that the terrible refs didn't see a problem with is often warranted in the tournament. We have seen it multiple times and worry about it every year. Sometimes you just have to play with the "the refs can't call it every time" mindset. This is the way Tech came into the game. Four very quick fouls and the refs get used to it and stop calling it so often.
    Good point, something I think deserves its own thread in a couple of weeks. This might be the one area where the WCC hurts us most. How does the staff train the players to play to the level of physicality being allowed by the refs in the game?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kitzbuel View Post
    Good point, something I think deserves its own thread in a couple of weeks. This might be the one area where the WCC hurts us most. How does the staff train the players to play to the level of physicality being allowed by the refs in the game?
    the key here is, would the game have been called evenly then? without resorting to any of that grabbing and hacking, the Zags were still whistled for more fouls than TT lol, without the 'physical' play.

    TT with 10 fouls over the last 36 minutes of play, playing like that. 10 fouls?

    and that has nothing to do with the block which led to Culver's 3 where Owens stepped out of bounds by a couple of feet for crying out loud

    just bummed Zags couldn't overcome the complete and total BS which has become the ncaa tournament. After 50 years of loving this torunament, I think I'm done. I quit the NFL, NBA and MLB becasue it's just too obvious, the tournament is too

    I love what Few and the Zags stand for in all of it, keeps me interested, but last night was as bad as it gets. Totally got jobbed

  11. #36
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    Only if the refs could have gotten us more than 3 bench points!!

    Not our best showing, not a terrible loss, but big missed opportunity. Fun year. Go Zags!!
    Go Zags!!!

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    Regardless of the numbers, I cringed when I saw Higgins was reffing this game. How he got an elite 8 assignment is beyond me.

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    Be strong with the ball. The Big East style of yesteryear
    I miss Mike Hart

  14. #39
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    My buddy who is very level headed and rarely says anything about how a game is called texted me, “Sorry for the [poop emoji] reffing.” He’s a Kansas guy and knows TT well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagceo View Post
    Good teams overcome bad refs.
    Agree. We did it several times. Shot bad shots when we coulda easily increased our lead, instead squandered the opportunities we had, sand lost instead. I’m never one to blame the refs. If we had better shot selection we win the game. Fact is we didn’t.
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    Just one exam of the type of "defense" Texas Tech was getting away with last night: https://twitter.com/ydfished/status/...601723392?s=19

    With close up replays, I'm sure you could find many similar examples. The no calls really seemed to get in the heads of our guys, especially Clarke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Worthington View Post
    Just one exam of the type of "defense" Texas Tech was getting away with last night: https://twitter.com/ydfished/status/...601723392?s=19

    With close up replays, I'm sure you could find many similar examples. The no calls really seemed to get in the heads of our guys, especially Clarke.
    That is just such an *obvious* reach-in.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worthington View Post
    Just one exam of the type of "defense" Texas Tech was getting away with last night: https://twitter.com/ydfished/status/...601723392?s=19

    With close up replays, I'm sure you could find many similar examples. The no calls really seemed to get in the heads of our guys, especially Clarke.
    I had an argument with my non-Zag buddy on that play. That is an automatic call most games. He argued that there wasn’t enough contact but when a game is very physical, this is the stuff refs typically call. Reward body positioning and moving the feet and penalize hacking a swiping of the arms. When a game is being called a certain way, it is hard for a team that hasn’t been coached to do what TT does to match it— we call it matching the intensity but it is also a skill, just like anything else. If we try to do the same stuff in that game we wouldn’t have been as adept at it and would have been called left, right, and center.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CDC84 View Post
    All I can say is that I have not seen Mark Few more pissed at an official than he was at that African American ref.
    that's Earl Walton. earlier it was observed that Higgins wasn't the only ref who sucked....

    google Walton

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    Quote Originally Posted by bballbeachbum View Post
    that's Earl Walton. earlier it was observed that Higgins wasn't the only ref who sucked....

    google Walton
    geez....can’t get a better team in elite eight game?

    https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/c...ticle-1.121381

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagceo View Post
    geez....can’t get a better team in elite eight game?

    https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/c...ticle-1.121381
    or maybe they got just who they wanted? lol

  22. #47
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    OP matches my eye test watching the game. And Adam's comment from courtside re officials not calling fouls on "handsy" play. And Few going near-ballistic on camera more than I ever recall seeing before.

    I'm sure TTU draws eyeballs in the big markets in the state..........

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagceo View Post
    Good teams overcome bad refs.
    That's possible, but if the refs give the other team a ten point handicap (hypothetically) then you have to beat them by 11. And if the other team is good, or more than good, you have to be great, or more than great. Is there a word for that?

  24. #49

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    This is an interesting discussion, but the reality is that when you lose by one or two possessions, there are probably a dozen things you can point to as the cause.

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    A team that plays D the Tech does gets a clear advantage when the Refs take a relaxed approach to calling fouls. The opposite is true when the Refs call a tight game. Yesterday the tone of the game was in their favor. GU did not play good enough to overcome that advantage. This was not a case of the refs being out to get GU. I am guessing that in TT losses this year they had a pretty good deficit in the foul column.

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