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Thread: GU vs Baylor (NCAA R2) - Predictions/Thoughts/What you do hope to see

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by raise the zag View Post
    agree to an extent, yet penetrating a 1-3-1 is almost impossible past 3pt line. And not Perkins or Crandall's forte to penetrate without help, they are quick off ball screens, yet that is exactly what Baylor does best -- collapse on the ball screen penetration. It can be stifling around the 3pt line for guards. Our best chance is rolling out the screening big for an easy mid-range jumper or drive to the hoop. Also, rolling weakside bigs to the hoop as well.

    Also, Baylor guards are all 215lbs+, they are tough to drive by as they front really well with their muscle/strength.

    Our bigs should technically have a field day playing off one another, weakside cuts along baseline, driving to hoop, or finding soft spots in zone.
    This is incorrect, see my post regarding penetartion below the free throw line...and as far as screens go against the 1-3-1 zone...you don't ball screen...you screen a defender where a player without the ball will cut to. In other words...as penetration happens and the defense attempts to collapse on the penetration, screen the weak side defender attempting to collapse and play help team defense...the help defender is now blocked from rotating and someone on the back side is going to be wide open.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by raise the zag View Post
    agree to an extent, yet penetrating a 1-3-1 is almost impossible past 3pt line. And not Perkins or Crandall's forte to penetrate without help, they are quick off ball screens, yet that is exactly what Baylor does best -- collapse on the ball screen penetration. It can be stifling around the 3pt line for guards. Our best chance is rolling out the screening big for an easy mid-range jumper or drive to the hoop. Also, rolling weakside bigs to the hoop as well.

    Also, Baylor guards are all 215lbs+, they are tough to drive by as they front really well with their muscle/strength.

    Our bigs should technically have a field day playing off one another, weakside cuts along baseline, driving to hoop, or finding soft spots in zone.
    Wrong...on penetrating zones..every zone has penetrating lanes that forces two defenders to cover one player creating open pockets of opportunities. Knowing and understanding the angles lanes and proper slides or move without ball will create some very good open looks

    1-3-1 in particular is difficult to handle and cover post up and short corners providing our bigs ample opportunities

    Suspect we see very little 1-3-1 if we attack it correctly
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishzag_09 View Post
    This is incorrect, see my post regarding penetartion below the free throw line...and as far as screens go against the 1-3-1 zone...you don't ball screen...you screen a defender where a player without the ball will cut to. In other words...as penetration happens and the defense attempts to collapse on the penetration, screen the weak side defender attempting to collapse and play help team defense...the help defender is now blocked from rotating and someone on the back side is going to be wide open.
    yes and no. We are actually saying nearly the same thing in a different way, if you break it down.

    in theory, baseline is open vs any zone, IF/when help defender collapses, yet ask Syracuse how that worked out for them last night? Did you watch the game? I stayed up until midnight my time watching every minute.

    Baylor runs a so-called 1-3-1, yet immediately "morphs" into a more traditional 2-3 when first help defender collapses if/when guards penetrate. this nearly eliminated their baseline "rover" or cutter every single time, forcing them to kick it back out to try and find the open jumper. Occasionally Syracuse simply out worked the zone by forcing it down the lane and for a drive to the hoop, and even then Baylor switched to a legitimate M2M defense down the stretch. This worked wonders as Syracuse couldn't adjust quick enough.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishzag_09 View Post
    Thank you sir. I will say is when playing against the 1-3-1 zone is that the baseline is WIDE OPEN along with the Spot up Corner 3...teams that shoot this shot at a high percentage will pummel the 1-3-1...The last thing on penetrating the 1-3-1 zone does not happen at the top of the 3-point arc, but from the wing and baseline positions...meaning in order to tear apart this zone, instead of moving the ball side to side like you want to against a 2-3 zone, you actually want to move the ball below the free throw line and then penetrate....with non-ballhandlers drifting actually towards where the zone use to be (free throw line) as it collapses on the penetration. I really feel the Zags are the team that will blow up this zone with everyone being able to handle the ball. This zone works well when the 3, 4, and 5 guys can't dribble penetrate or stand around and can't move without the ball...neither of these are problems for us.

    In case a few of you want to really nerd out...here are some cookie cutter plays that will make the 1-3-1 zone crumble.

    https://www.coachesclipboard.net/131zoneoffense.html
    Starting low block ballside post up with opposite patient high post and a sliding weakside shooter will create very difficult defensive decisions. As you attack the angle toward free throw elbow creates pivot choice for the lone baseline defender if he stays ballside low post then the middle defender at free throw must decide to stay with weaksideelbow offensive player who can slide to low block or pop out to three ball leaving weaksidewing to backdoor cut or continue thru for ballside overload open look ( norvell excels at this). Meanwhile point guard fills in behind penetrator and is open for good look

    1-3-1 staying away from trouble corner doubles is one of the funniest zones to attack especially with our composite makeup
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishzag_09 View Post
    This is incorrect, see my post regarding penetartion below the free throw line...and as far as screens go against the 1-3-1 zone...you don't ball screen...you screen a defender where a player without the ball will cut to. In other words...as penetration happens and the defense attempts to collapse on the penetration, screen the weak side defender attempting to collapse and play help team defense...the help defender is now blocked from rotating and someone on the back side is going to be wide open.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoopaholic View Post
    Wrong...on penetrating zones..every zone has penetrating lanes that forces two defenders to cover one player creating open pockets of opportunities. Knowing and understanding the angles lanes and proper slides or move without ball will create some very good open looks

    1-3-1 in particular is difficult to handle and cover post up and short corners providing our bigs ample opportunities

    Suspect we see very little 1-3-1 if we attack it correctly
    I agree with both of you to an extent, yet I can also tell you have not watched Baylor play. You are referencing coaching concepts from your own experience or a manual on how to adjust or find lanes, soft spots vs "1-3-1".

    Baylor plays a version of it, yet also 2-3 "attacking zone", followed by M2M if/when penetration is working.

    I'm not drawing a line in the sand or saying right or wrong, yet watching Baylor morph from zone to zone in the middle of a possession, and watching how unsuccessful teams are at finding baseline opportunities vs them is what is happening.

    Side angles have worked for entry passes to post up guys yet Baylor knows and adjusts, in a perfect world proper angles/slides/moving without ball is textbook.

    I was saying is primary ballhandlers driving past on ball defenders isnt' really Gonzaga's forte and that is fine. We can use corners more and utilizing our bigs ability to dribble drive. This isn't necessary black and white, as each of you have assumed. IF we see this, then do this. Again, watching that game last night was telling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raise the zag View Post
    yes and no. We are actually saying nearly the same thing in a different way, if you break it down.

    in theory, baseline is open vs any zone, IF/when help defender collapses, yet ask Syracuse how that worked out for them last night? Did you watch the game? I stayed up until midnight my time watching every minute.

    Baylor runs a so-called 1-3-1, yet immediately "morphs" into a more traditional 2-3 when first help defender collapses if/when guards penetrate. this nearly eliminated their baseline "rover" or cutter every single time, forcing them to kick it back out to try and find the open jumper. Occasionally Syracuse simply out worked the zone by forcing it down the lane and for a drive to the hoop, and even then Baylor switched to a legitimate M2M defense down the stretch. This worked wonders as Syracuse couldn't adjust quick enough.
    2-3 zone and 1-2-2 are both designed to manage low post and baseline action

    Syracuse runs modified 2-2-1 zone with flex responsibility
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoopaholic View Post
    2-3 zone and 1-2-2 are both designed to manage low post and baseline action

    Syracuse runs modified 2-2-1 zone with flex responsibility
    +1. agreed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raise the zag View Post
    I agree with both of you to an extent, yet I can also tell you have not watched Baylor play. You are referencing coaching concepts from your own experience or a manual on how to adjust or find lanes, soft spots vs 1-3-1.

    Baylor plays a version of it, yet also 2-3 "attacking zone", followed by M2M if/when penetration is working.

    I'm not drawing a line in the sand or saying right or wrong, yet watching Baylor morph from zone to zone in the middle of a possession, and watching how unsuccessful teams are at finding baseline opportunities vs them is what is happening.

    Side angles have worked for entry passes to post up guys yet Baylor knows and adjusts, in a perfect world proper angles/slides/moving without ball is textbook.

    I was saying is primary ballhandlers driving past on ball defenders isnt' really Gonzaga's forte and that is fine. We can use corners more and utilizing our bigs ability to dribble drive. This isn't necessary black and white, as each of you have assumed. IF we see this, then do this. Again, watching that game last night was telling.
    Only 3 games this year but dress philosophy and responsibilities have been consistent over the years and this year is same

    Manual? What is that. And where would one purchase that on Baylor 1-3-1 zone philosophies?
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  9. #59
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    Both zones, like most zones, require a certain type of player (usually long arms for ex.). Baylor's zone if you have a chance to watch it, is better than average. Like all zones, passing into the heart and cutting without the ball are the key. Rui's and Tillie's passing will be on display.

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    Zags 85-70

    Tillie really makes a difference. It's great to have him back, I just wish he'd been able to play all season so he'd be more in game shape. However, we're deep enough that he can get rests.

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    ZAGS 85
    BEARS - 69

  12. #62
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    Zags 76
    Baylor 60
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    fun thread to peruse, thanks everyone

    agree with the observations it's a very different matchup for Baylor with the Zags instead of Syracuse, hard to measure Baylor from that game

    but discussed the baseline attack against 1 3 1 and Syracuse zone in game thread. each open along the baseline depending on how you attack it. on Baylor, the weakside baseline to enter the paint into gaps to receive, and the hi low, both ways to attack that zone and isolate our post player 1v1 inside

    I'd expect Rui or BC to get tons of attention at the FT line, so the weakside and baseline could be open if they can find those cutters when the pressure comes. hope Zags can work that zone side to side and inside out to open up the gaps; Syracuse found them all over the place

    when Baylor goes M2M, hope to see Zags recognize and go to work inside; Syracuse adjusted poorly imo when Baylor switched Ds, kept jacking but under pressure and off the bounce, different shot than vs. the zone

    if Zags are giving up catch and shoot 3s and/or o baords to Baylor, will be a battle. if not, Zags control things.

    the D glass is the Key imo to help fuel the O efficiency, that battle against Baylor's strength on the o glass

  14. #64
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    zags 79 baylor 71
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    I see another 2013 outcome where the 1 seed Zags once again run into a very good but under appreciated 9 seed. The Zags rated number 1 in the country in 2013 and our fans on this board thought the Zags had better talent than the Shockers even after the game!!! But time has shown Wichita State had the better team with 3 future NBA players. Once again we face a 9 seed with future NBA talent. (our fans just don't know it now just as they didn't before Wichita State)

    Baylor 79 Zags 78

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    Quote Originally Posted by B Wayne View Post
    I see another 2013 outcome where the 1 seed Zags once again run into a very good but under appreciated 9 seed. The Zags rated number 1 in the country in 2013 and our fans on this board thought the Zags had better talent than the Shockers even after the game!!! But time has shown Wichita State had the better team with 3 future NBA players. Once again we face a 9 seed with future NBA talent. (our fans just don't know it now just as they didn't before Wichita State)

    Baylor 79 Zags 78
    If you think this Baylor team features more NBA or overall talent, you are mistaken.

    Having more talent doesn't equal a win, yet we are better than Baylor in every conceivable way, save rebounding. That includes current and future talent...and it's not all that close.

    That is just being objective.

    Their 1 3 1 gives everyone problems yet we should win going away tomorrow tonight. We just gave to match their toughness, as no one is denying they are a tough and strong team.

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    I think a lot on here look at what can go wrong instead of looking at the teams. The Zags should win without a doubt but there's always that chance that Baylor could play out of their mind. I think talent wins this game...

    Zags - 90
    Baylor - 71

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    Quote Originally Posted by B Wayne View Post
    I see another 2013 outcome where the 1 seed Zags once again run into a very good but under appreciated 9 seed. The Zags rated number 1 in the country in 2013 and our fans on this board thought the Zags had better talent than the Shockers even after the game!!! But time has shown Wichita State had the better team with 3 future NBA players. Once again we face a 9 seed with future NBA talent. (our fans just don't know it now just as they didn't before Wichita State)

    Baylor 79 Zags 78
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    I can’t imagine any team staying in a 1-3-1 zone for long against our front court. Tillie and Perkins will lob baseline dunks to BC and Rui until the rim curls up in the fetal position and begs for mercy.
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  20. #70
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    Zags 82
    Bears 65
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    Posted in the game thread, so mods please delete if you see fit. Pre-game pressers. Zach and Corey start at about 38 min mark.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBMUX-Bw-qs
    Last edited by OCzag; 03-22-2019 at 02:56 PM. Reason: forgot the link (doh)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Centre Mad Man View Post
    I can’t imagine any team staying in a 1-3-1 zone for long against our front court. Tillie and Perkins will lob baseline dunks to BC and Rui until the rim curls up in the fetal position and begs for mercy.
    The best way to beat this zone is quick decisive passes from the high post or the free-throw line extended wing. That pass is most effective from the high post....sooooo Tillie maybe? You want to keep that middle defender up high so the baseline guy has to choose. Could be a lot of oppo screens and cuts for Rui. There should be lots of sideline 3's for Snacks as well. It will be interesting to see how Few comes at this zone. Might be a good game for Kispert as well.


    This is a game where Shem would have put on a passing clinic. Miss ya big Fella.

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    “There is no premium content on the GUBoards. We get what we pay for.”
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    “There is no premium content on the GUBoards. We get what we pay for.”
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    Go Zags. Beat da Bears !
    GU - 81 BU - 72

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