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Thread: After a Horrible Trip to Las Vegas - What Have We Learned, Reflections, etc.

  1. #1
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    Default After a Horrible Trip to Las Vegas - What Have We Learned, Reflections, etc.

    Hope all of my fellow Las Vegas trippers got home safe and sound to the clear and cold skies of Spokane.

    After a horrible trip to Las Vegas, and I don't mean the game results, we are all reminded that basketball is a just a game, in the overall scheme of things. Our prayers go out to LS, JT and especially the Fortier family in their time of sorrow. The Zag Community will do what they have always done and Zag Up providing the love and support to all parties.

    However, the game does go on, and the NCAA tournament waits for no one or no team providing no time for sorrow or grieving. Unless information has been provided otherwise, the team must be ready to finish the season without LS and JT and possibly without CLF.

    While not NCAA official, Charlie Crème still has us a 5-seed (giving us a procedural bump up from a 6-seed) after our loss to BYU and still has us going to Ames, Iowa.

    What have we and the team learned from their trip to Las Vegas, that they can use to move forward to next week's NCAA game?

    ZagDad

  2. #2
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    I could care less about professional pontificates like creme at this point......

    what we have witnessed is the epitome of life and no rankings/seed/charlie cremes can ever cover the emotional assault that was the last couple of days....

    it is only a game....


    but having said that , the university prez had said in the girls pre game function that with his talks with the NCAA we were pretty assured to have two home games if we beat byu...

    not to be.....

    St Mary's played like buffalo throwing their weight around and got away with it, even though some will say....yea but gu got more ft's.....which are two totally different concepts....

    poor Laura took a very unfortunate fall and loss her hope and dream of playing and winning one NCAA tourney....feel very bad for her.....she did not deserve this.....shes worked hard all these yrs.....

    Life...

    and then Jill.....somebody tell me how many girls break their legs playing basketball....tear their acl or mcl or get a high ankle sprain or a broken finger or maybe a concussion.......breaking their leg?.......either it was a foul on Jill or a foul on the buffalo, but that kind of force has got to be called one way or another....but when you have players pushing, grabbing, shoving with their full weight, and not getting called, they continue....thus bad injuries....

    vs byu....I know that zags line up early for the games....a very large byu group with family so called tickets .....at least 100 of them....were let in before the group of zags waiting patiently some since 0930.......of course they took primo seats.....

    why?...

    and why do floppers keep flourishing at byu?..it must be taught....take a shot and then fall.....sure thing call....oh and develop that hurt look that you give the refs.....

    I'd like to know the rule for jump ball.....it's been called when the opposition has 2 fingers on the ball, its not been called when the opposing player comes from behind and holds your arms down, and its not been called when 2-3 players are rolling on the floor.....and I also always heard if you have the ball and roll over with it, its a travel call.....

    never knew you can make a karate type kick towards your opponent and not get a technical.....or that you can have the refs stop the game so a byu player can catch their breath.....me, I always thought at minimum that player had to leave for one play....but no....just stop the game so she could catch up....

    I just figured out this late in the year that if two players go for a rebound, the Zag will always get called for a foul.....same as going for a loose ball.....when in doubt, call the Zag for a foul.....


    but moving on from that, our team has not had a true center since Shelby, and it shows....not Jill B, not Z, not the wirths.....the team gets so focused on stopping tall centers that we leave too many open shooters.....wide...open......next year, I think we'll get help from Anna and then Jen and Leeanne can be the true power forwards I think they are, just like Jill b.....

    Zee.......wow....what a wonderful career.....from what I looked up briefly, that 3 pointer she shot at the end of the byu game was her first at Gonzaga.....

    aside from the game, the attendance was terrific.....women's fans are the best...they really brought it...

    someone noted that a woman was ushered out of the game right behind our bench...don't know the issue but byu fans have been noted to be very rude and obnoxious to CLF at Byu.

    our dear CLF ........our thoughts and prayers for her.....I have 4 brothers age 58 to age 70 and I would be heartbroken if I lost them now even at their age, but to lose a kid brother at age 16.....incomprehensible......

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    It’s been a rough week for Lisa and her family... We all send our condolences.

    We know she has support... and her belief is there.

    The TEAM is still the TEAM... and while two key players will be missed, we still have a very strong front line and four very good guards. The players have all been in tournaments throughout the years.

    Until Lisa is able to return, the team is in good hands with a large support group. In GU WBB the FAMILY shirts are for real. And FAMILY first runs true.

    As for Las Vegas... it is what it is. Time to heal both physically and emotionally. And I feel the FAMILY is strong enough to do so. The season has been full of challenges and will continue... excited to see where they will be and who they will play.

    Go Zags!!

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    I watched the GU-BYU game. Zags were kept in the game by the refs, only offense they had most of the second half. Rice had 25 points and only made 6 FGs, do the math. I don't see how you can be complaining about the refs in this game sylean. The final box score shows a similar number of FTA, but I'm fairly certain it was a 28-7 advantage for GU when Coach Judkins had enough and picked up a technical. That was late in the game. Refs did a whole of evening things up after that point, plus GU was fouling intentionally. BYU outplayed them, that's all there is to it. I honestly didn't see flopping. Maybe GU should try to defend the 3 point line? BYU was 12-22 and 13-25 in the 2nd and 3rd meetings between the 2 teams.

    It's unfortunate Stockton and Townsend got injured, I hate seeing injuries. There were a TON of injuries this year, more than I can remember in any season ever before. Seems like very few teams managed to go through the year without losing somebody.


    Oh, and on the subject of unnecessarily physical play--GU players hit BYU players in the face or neck w/ an elbow THREE times during the game. Sometimes it happens accidentally, it's part of basketball. But three times in 1 game is not an accident. Where's your outrage for GU players throwing elbows sylean? Or are you only concerned about the safety of the Zags and could care less about anybody else?

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    Quote Originally Posted by seacatfan View Post
    Oh, and on the subject of unnecessarily physical play--GU players hit BYU players in the face or neck w/ an elbow THREE times during the game. Sometimes it happens accidentally, it's part of basketball. But three times in 1 game is not an accident. Where's your outrage for GU players throwing elbows sylean? Or are you only concerned about the safety of the Zags and could care less about anybody else?
    Never any reason for physical play, on either side... But the bias here on this particular post is incredible. I've never seen a player clearing out space with a "wipe" back and forth with their elbows ABOVE their own shoulders?!

    It's an "unnatural" move to say the least.

    Oh and that last "block" by one of the Wirths? That was a foul. Arms were decidedly NOT straight up but at a 45 degree angle. But that's how it goes.

    You guys got beat because you failed to contain the three point shooting, especially CHASE, which you knew you had to do in order to win the game before you started.

    The Zags have always played the game with dignity and have earned the respect and admiration of the entire WCC. Your accomplishments and the level of play that you bring inspires all of us. Let's not spoil that.

    You lost one friggin game?!
    Is this so unbelievable?

    BYU did exactly what they set out to do. They were the better team that day.

    #winorlosewithdignity


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    This ain't rocket surgery!

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    I haven't even posted about the byu gang yet...

    ...mostly I'm re watching the st marys game....

    ..but I'll eventually get to byu....

    ..in the st mary's game I've seen one wrong or near wrong call against st marys and three blatantly bad calls against the zags.....eg....in the first quarter where one of the herd pushed jessi over.....jessi gets called..

    in regards to byu

    at byu, we played badly...at byu, they shot well....at byu their shooters seem to fall a lot getting three point plays.....poor things.....and 6'8 Hamson suffering at the hands of little jessi loerta......just a horrible horrible thing to see...

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    I, for one, take offense at being lumped into an entitled group. Reality check SeaCat & CG3Dad. BYU had already beaten us twice this year when we had a full team and a week to prepare. Being 2 players short and only 24 hours to prepare a game plan without these two players, do you really think the VAST majority of zag fans really expected(let alone felt entitled) to win this game? The reality is we had a better chance of BYU not showing up than we had to win this game.

    SeaCat, if you did not see any BYU flopping you did not look very hard. BYU guards, particularly Gonzales and Johnson flopped at least 50% of their drives to the basket. They along with Chase probably flopped on 25% of the GU possessions trying to draw the charge or the push. Did you miss the entire sequence when Gonzales flopped on her back trying to get the push, hit her head on the floor and the officials stopped the game so she could be looked at deleting a 2 person advantage GU had at the time? Just one in a long line of flops by the BYU guards. BYU is known throughout the league for flopping and in Tuesday's game, the refs only called a couple maybe 3 fouls despite all of the flops. BYU's guards are fantastic players, I just get sick of all the flops and the continuous whining the BYU guards do with the refs. They are much better players than this underhanded behavior, but when you get rewarded, it just encourages more of this behaviour.

    SeaCat, you might want to check that comment about the refs keeping the zags in the game. the game was lost in the 2nd quarter when BYU outscored the Zags by a score of 23-7. At halftime, the lady zags had shot 8 free throws and BYU had shot 3 free throws. Hardly keeping the zags in the game. Seems like maybe you might want to check some of your facts as much as you complain about others.

    I am not going to take time arguing all the calls, but get real. For every Wirth foul (and there were several called & not called) the Bash Sisters (Moody and Salmon) got theirs in. In reality, the Wirths, Moody and Salmon really did not figure into the game, much to the zags dismay. The Rice Flagrant foul, it was not intentional. She simply turned 180 Deg. to go from back facing the basket to front facing the basket with her arms up. She intended to take Hamson off the dribble. She is entitled to the cylinder of space around her body. If she kept her elbows in, its a foul on Hamson, if she extended elbows out of the cylinder it is a foul on Rice. At the game it looked like Rice kept her elbows in, but the Refs who looked at the replay said foul on Rice, fair enough, but "throwing an elbow", get over yourself. 6'7" guarding 6'1", the taller player is going to take an elbow or 2 to the nose particularly if you are bodying up.

    Try not to lump a fan base or an entire board based on the comments of one self-proclaimed homer.

    ZagDad
    Last edited by ZagDad84; 03-14-2019 at 11:32 PM.

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    About the game, which was the intent of this thread to begin with.

    First and foremost, congrats to the BYU Cougars; the team, the coaching staff and the university. They earned the WCC tournament title, the trophy and the automatic NCAA tournament bid by being the better team. I also want to call out Coach Judkins for his kind statements regarding CLF, the Lady Zag Team, and the CLF family. He has shown great class in this difficult situation, maybe Paul Thomas could take some lessons.

    The Good
    - With only 24 hours to prepare without two of their top 6 players, the lady zags scored as many points as they did in any other game with BYU and scored 92% of their seasonal average. If someone had told me we were going to score 68 points before the game, I would have taken it in a second. Nice job ladies.

    - Despite having lost our point guard and being down a total of 2 guards, we only had 10 turnovers for the game. Great job Zags.

    - First quarter was a great game of basketball. It is too bad that the ladies could not sustain this level of play for the entire game.

    - The injuries likely killed any chance of hosting but the loss sealed it. That being said, it is likely we will still remain a 5-seed and no worse than a 6-seed despite the BYU game outcome. Charlie Crème still has us as a 5-seed going to the same location and playing the same teams as before the loss. Keep in mind that all of the other 5-seeds and 6-seeds lost in their conference tournaments and most of them lost before the championship finals. Keep the faith zag fans.

    The Bad:
    - Shooting by anybody not named Rice (and LW). No chance to win this game shooting 34.7% overall and 35.3% from 3-point land.

    - Rebounding was essentially equal between the teams but BYU's 4 guards got 18 of BYU's 33 total rebounds despite the fact that GU had a forward on at least one of the guards for most of the game. If a 6'3" forward frequently gets outrebound by a 5'8"-5'10" guard, you are going to have trouble. Wirth's, you have to want it more, you are playing way to passive and letting the game come to you. Go get it.

    - 30 games into the season and on 20-30% of the switches the guards either don't switch at all or both guards go with the ball handler leaving the pick open for "3". How many times did we see that in the two previous games and yet, we did it again on Tuesday. The ladies are smarter than this, and they need to be coached up on this issue if they want to win their next game. Unbelievable.

    The Questionable:

    - GU Coach's why did you put a Wirth on a BYU guard. Anybody who has watched the lady zags knew that either Wirth would be handed their lunch basket by any of the BYU guards. They do not have the foot speed to stay with the guard. Rice, yes, but the Wirth's no, and all it did was lead to several wide open 3's. Really questionable decision by the coaches.

    - Whether it was plays called by the coaching staff or player decisions, but the Wirths and MK both continuously tried to take the ball to the basket against Hamson and had leather for lunch. Time after time in the 2nd quarter (when the game was lost), possession after possession they tried to take the ball up against 6'7" only to have it block, or swatted. Why? If you can get Hamson to turn her feet, you can take her to the hoop (see Rice), but if she does not have to turn her feet, you lose. Insanity is repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. This was the lady zag offense in the 2nd quarter, which is where the game was lost.

    - We shot better from 3 than we did overall, why did we insist on taking the ball to the hoop instead of taking some more 3's. You can't trade 2's for 3's and expect to win when you are being out rebounded and out shot.

    - Knowing full well that it is more than likely we are going to have to live without LS and JT for the remainder of the season, and yet the only backup guard, LF, on the team only gets 12 minutes (the same as MK). The BYU game was important, but less important than the next NCAA game. We are going to need LF if we want to continue in the tournament. I think the BYU game was a chance to give LF experience against guards as good as she is likely to see in the first and (hopefully) second rounds of the NCAA tournament. Giving LF more playing time would not have changed the outcome (she could not possible have shot any worse than some of our other guards) but would have provided her more experience. IMO this was a very wasted opportunity to improve our chances and team for the tournament.

    Once again, congrats to Coach Judkins and his team. With Gonzales as a freshman, Johnson as a sophomore and Chase as a junior, they are going to be pain in the backside to the entire WCC for several more years. The coaching staff from Gonzaga better have a better plan then they did this year if they expect to be at the top next year. Good luck Cougars on your NCAA journey.

    Lady Zags, you showed a ton of resilience and heart this weekend. This week does not define the team. We will be forever proud of the effort you have put forth this year. You have earned a top seed, a seed higher than any other Zag team ever has. Let's show the NCAA tournament committee how we are deserving of that seed.

    Good Luck ladies next week. We are behind you 100%.

    ZagDad
    Last edited by ZagDad84; 03-15-2019 at 01:29 AM.

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    Okay, the game was really won during the 16-0 run during a 6 minute portion of Q2.

    Well if BYU players were flopping, they certainly weren't drawing foul calls. 10 of their 22 FTA came in the last 2:24 of the game when the Zags were fouling on purpose. And 14 of 22 came after the :02 mark of Q3 after Judkins got the technical. Check the game log if you don't believe me. Judkins didn't get a T for nothing, he was upset about the FT disparity and in particular when 1 of his players got banged hard on a shot with no call. That was toward the end of a stretch that saw a 16-2 FTA advantage for GU (again, check the game log--starts at 8:10 of Q3 until :36 of Q3; but it REALLY starts at 5:07 w/ a 12-0 run of FTs in favor of GU). If you don't think that helped GU maintain contact while they weren't hitting shots, I don't know what to tell you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seacatfan View Post
    Okay, the game was really won during the 16-0 run during a 6 minute portion of Q2.

    Well if BYU players were flopping, they certainly weren't drawing foul calls. 10 of their 22 FTA came in the last 2:24 of the game when the Zags were fouling on purpose. And 14 of 22 came after the :02 mark of Q3 after Judkins got the technical. Check the game log if you don't believe me. Judkins didn't get a T for nothing, he was upset about the FT disparity and in particular when 1 of his players got banged hard on a shot with no call. That was toward the end of a stretch that saw a 16-2 FTA advantage for GU (again, check the game log--starts at 8:10 of Q3 until :36 of Q3; but it REALLY starts at 5:07 w/ a 12-0 run of FTs in favor of GU). If you don't think that helped GU maintain contact while they weren't hitting shots, I don't know what to tell you.
    Thank you.

    We agree the game was lost (or won depending on your perspective) in the second quarter when the refs had minimal impact on the score or the game. My only point was to show that your statement of "Zags were kept in the game by the refs" was not supported by the stats. If you now want to pontificate that the refs kept the game closer than it should of been, o'k, I don't necessarily agree but whatever. Who really cares if the final score was 14, 20, 25 points.

    By my definition, a flop is done when either a foul does not occur or an extreme exaggeration when a minor foul has occurred. Just because a person flops does not mean that a foul has occurred or that a ref will buy the ploy. I state as such in my previous post above "the refs only called a couple maybe 3 fouls despite all of the flops." If you don't want to call a person falling down for no apparent reason, or exaggerating a minor foul a flop, o'k. but that is at least my definition. BYU benefitted from "flopping" much less on Tuesday then they had in the previous games against GU.

    No worries,

    ZagDad

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    I recall one "flagrant" foul....that was called on Zee when she turned towards the basket to shoot...if there was any other flagrant fouls I didn't see them nor are they listed...

    the refs can be selective about calling fouls period......I've talked to two people with coaching and reffing exp on the state level, and they both said the two games were horribly officiated.....fine.....that's life.....

    my team played poorly.......your team flops a lot....your team won.......enjoy....go boast on your byu board....

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    Default After a Horrible Trip to Las Vegas - What Have We Learned, Reflections, etc.

    @ZagDad
    I most decidedly did not lump all of the fantastic Zags into one, entitled group. In fact I commended you. My comments were directed at ONE particular post (not the poster), which again I was pretty clear.

    These are not personal attacks. These are opinions. And sometimes we can "agree to disagree". I agree with the refs on the call against Rice. Stop swinging the elbows, it's an unnatural move. And the call had its intended result. She stopped doing it.

    I also don't agree that the game was not completely winnable by the Zags even with the tragic loss of Laura and Jill. It wasn't a lost cause. Tough. But still doable.

    @ZagDad you are also laser like in your assessment of the really mind boggling decisions by your coaching staff. Who in basketball wouldn't realize that the Wirths can't keep up with a guard? And also the futile drives to the basket where GU players were getting swatted like flys? Finally trading 2's for 3 point shots is a loss by attrition. The extra point on each possession is going to add up?????

    These are simple concepts, yet I still say that coaches seem to over estimate their or their player's abilities or under estimate the other team. I also suspect, and this is once again speculation, that part of the GU game plan was to try to force BYU inside (like they apparently were successful in doing to GU!?).

    Every single time BYU lost this year their three point shooting was less than 32%. And the majority of the time Chase was limited to single digits. With one exception... Against Pepperdine. Which makes sense to me, because Pepperdine beat them with offense. In other words Pepperdine beat BYU at their own game. Which is extremely tough to do.

    Against GU, BYU shot 40+ percent on three's. So the outcome is completely predictable.

    What I saw was some exquisite guard play by BYU. Especially Gonsales and Johnson who already perhaps had a "chip" on her shoulder because she felt (wrongly or rightly) that she got snubbed by the WCC on being left off the first team selections?

    These are the intangibles that make competitive sports so great.

    As far as flopping I hate it. But I think the refs are getting smarter and somewhat "immune" to it. I don't really care about flops UNLESS it is rewarded, because all it does is make you look stupid. Non competitive. Takes you out of the play so you can't help your team...cause you're on the ground, and finally you might just injure yourself if you keep hurling yourself intentionally to the ground all the time. Which is what you deserve in this case. I guess these players aren't used to playing ball on the black top or concrete courts? Not much flopping there (nor foul calls).

    Best wishes to both teams in the NCAA tournament! Represent the WCC well!!!

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by CG3Dad; 03-15-2019 at 03:17 AM.

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    BYU isn't my team, you know that sylean.

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    Sylean:

    I think the vast majority of posters and readers on this board fully agree that the WCC women's refs are wildly inconsistent in their calls, and they permit way too much physicality in general and particularly in the key (the WCC men's bb refs certainly did not permit anywhere near the level of physicality the women's refs do). Just like football where holding can be called on every play, the refs could call a foul on every possession on either team. Nobody wants that level of interaction with the refs in a game. Missed calls are a fact of life and the teams need to adjust their level of play to how the officials are going to call the game. Would it be nice to have each game called exactly the same or even each half of each game called the same? Absolutely, but as we have seen, it is not going to happen. This inconsistency makes it rough on everybody, but particularly the players who have to keep adjusting their style of play within a game or game to game.

    I am honestly interested in your opinion to the two questions below:

    First, do you think the officiating was the primary cause, or significantly affected the outcome of the BYU game?

    my team played poorly.....
    Could you expand on your thoughts on the above quote? Did you think the players simply not play up to their capability? Maybe their was some poor decision making by players? Coaches? A bad game plan? Other causes?

    Thank You,

    ZagDad

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    CG3Dad:

    I also don't agree that the game was not completely winnable by the Zags even with the tragic loss of Laura and Jill. It wasn't a lost cause. Tough. But still doable.
    Yep you caught me,

    I exaggerated how ridiculous it was for any person to think most Zag fans felt entitled or really expected to win the game. Possible, certainly, particularly if the lady zags played four quarters like the played the first quarter or if BYU's 3-point shooting fell off to below 32%.

    In other words, I flopped

    Thanks CG3Dad,

    ZagDad

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagDad84 View Post

    In other words, I flopped

    ZagDad
    erfect

    this made my day

    GoZags


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Just a bad match-up of players (BYU vrs Zags) they used 3 point type guards and took advantage of mismatches that were created. Zags had an size advantage at the forward/post positions but did not use that to their advantage. Not sure if trying to match them player for player would have been an answer either. Very difficult matchup, just disappointed that after losing twice we used the same game plan a third time. No matter the plan good shooting % makes or breaks the plan, the key is to put your best players in a position for slightly easier baskets. Seems like all teams rely on great players to create their own scoring opportunity, I like plays that give good players a step lead on the defense. A lot of teams just use a flex or motion offence and let players create their own moves, give me the days when pick and rolls and off ball screens were the norm.

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    Actually, BYU played 4-guards for the vast majority of the game (Chase, Gonzales, Johnson and Alldredge) along with their post Hamson. Chase, Gonzales, Johnson and Hamson all played over 35 minutes, Alldredge played 28 minutes and the two forwards (Moody and Salmon) only played 15 minutes between them. It was the 4th guard which created the problem for the lady zags because with the injuries we had to guard the 4 guard with either a forward or with LF, either choice had serious ramifications.

    Pony is entirely correct, that when the coaching staff put a forward on a guard (should have been ZR and not a Wirth), we had a big size advantage on GU's offensive end, yet you rarely saw plays run to the forward being guarded by BYU's guard. In addition, BYU's guards simply outhustled the lady zags on the boards. The BYU guards got 18 rebounds not to mention the boards gathered by Hamson, while ZR, JW & LW only got 16 boards between them. So the coaching plan by CLF and staff gave up open 3s to BYU, got no offense to speak of from the height advantage (forward to guard) on the offensive side of the ball and then got toasted on the boards. Unfortunately, most of us Monday morning quarterbacks could see that coming, but obviously CLF and staff did not.

    We need a much better plan for going forward. The good news is that the vast majority of teams do not have the number and quality of guards that BYU does. The bad news is that If we do have to play Iowa State, they play a very similar offense to BYU. Might need to put on your thinking caps tonight after the selection show.

    ZagDad

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