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Thread: Comments from Mike Roth re: Hanging jersey numbers in the rafters

  1. #26
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    Its time for a 3rd number to get Permanently retired. Adam Morrison"s # needs to be hung...To do what he did under the conditions that he did it...Rediculous. He is the best shot creator in the last 20 years...plus POY.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Centre Mad Man View Post
    The winningest player in the history of Division I Men’s basketball might make the short list of players for consideration. I might even consider Karnowski’s full career body of work to exceed that of Kelly Olynyk (one year as a starter), Dan Dickau (two years in the program), or Nigel Williams Goss (one season in a Zag uniform).

    I’ve always thought that Jeff Brown should have been considered for the honor as well.
    Not including Przemek Karnowski would be an embarrassing miscarriage of everything that college basketball SHOULD, but too often, doesn’t stand for. Tremendous player, outstanding teammate, one that made his teammates better, all time NCAA winningest player, Final Four/championship game, Nation’s best center award, academic excellence/WCC all academic, Graduated!, Masters degree (?) persistence overcoming serious injury, exemplary community service record in Spokane,
    National Senior of the Year top vote getter/first 5 award, and more. Karno was a totality, not just a basketball player. He was and remains a credit to his school and would be if he had never stepped on the court.

    I know many, maybe even most, will disagree, but I reject the thinking that only a player’s performance on the court should be considered when recognition is handed out at the collegiate level. In the Pro’s, sure. But college players are part of, or at least should be part of, their collegiate community and who they are and what they do as a part of that community matters.

    Don’t get me wrong. This is NOT to say that a player’s actual performance doesn’t matter. It should and it must, and it should be exceptional. I believe Shemmick’s was and again draw on the quote from CBS Sports I’ve posted before. “Without him, the Zag’s are not in Phoenix.” You could hang a #24 jersey just on that.
    Last edited by MontanaCoyote; 12-18-2018 at 08:39 AM.

  3. #28
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    Retire AMMO's first. He was player of the year. Then go from there.

  4. #29
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    I say we break tradition and start retiring the "faces" of devoted Zag fans.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MontanaCoyote View Post
    Not including Przemek Karnowski would be an embarrassing miscarriage of everything that college basketball SHOULD, but too often, doesn’t stand for. Tremendous player, outstanding teammate, one that made his teammates better, all time NCAA winningest player, Final Four/championship game, Nation’s best center award, academic excellence/WCC all academic, Graduated!, Masters degree (?) persistence overcoming serious injury, exemplary community service record in Spokane,
    Senior of the Year first 5 award, and more. Karno was a totality, not just a basketball player. He was and remains a credit to his school and would be if he had never stepped on the court.

    I know many, maybe even most, will disagree, but I reject the thinking that only a player’s performance on the court should be considered when recognition is handed out at the collegiate level. In the Pro’s, sure. But college players are part of, or at least should be part of, their collegiate community and who they are and what they do as a part of that community matters.

    Don’t get me wrong. This is NOT to say that a player’s actual performance doesn’t matter. It should and it must, and it should be exceptional. I believe Shemmick’s was and again draw on the quote from CBS Sports I’ve posted before. “Without him, the Zag’s are not in Phoenix.” You could hang a #24 jersey just on that.
    And did it while coming to America from a different country across the Atlantic.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDC84 View Post
    I say we break tradition and start retiring the "faces" of devoted Zag fans.
    You do not want to see my giant face staring down at you from those rafters...
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robzagnut View Post
    That would be Bill Russell. Height of a center, speed and quickness of a guard. 11 championships in his 13 years of playing in the NBA, winning the championship his rookie year. So many rings that when he wears them all he has to put 2 on one finger. He also lead San Francisco to 2 NCAA championships. He was so dominate defensively the NCAA widened the lanes.

    13 championships in 15 years will never be broken.
    First off...AMMO and Vandersloot’s numbers should be in the rafters.

    Secondly, Bill Russell was the starting center on some of the GREATEST NBA TEAMS of all time, which is why the Celtics won so many NBA Championships! I would say that if he and Wilt switched teams, then Wilt would have won all those rings and Bill might have one or two, because Wilt DOMINATED Bill EVERYTIME they played BUT the Celtics won all but one championship (1966) when the two played for the Celtics and 76ers.

    In addition, I believe the free throw lane was widened because of Wilt - the original width of the lane was narrower than today’s NCAA lane and was eventually moved to where the NBA lane’s width is today. and the rule that the free throw had to touch the rim was because Wilt would “shoot” the ball off the backboard, catch it and then dunk.

    I am also of the opinion that Larry Bird was the best Celtic to date.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogozags View Post
    First off...AMMO and Vandersloot’s numbers should be in the rafters.
    I agree. Then Karno should quickly follow.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bogozags View Post
    Secondly, Bill Russell was the starting center on some of the GREATEST NBA TEAMS of all time, which is why the Celtics won so many NBA Championships! I would say that if he and Wilt switched teams, then Wilt would have won all those rings and Bill might have one or two, because Wilt DOMINATED Bill EVERYTIME they played BUT the Celtics won all but one championship (1966) when the two played for the Celtics and 76ers.
    There's no coincidence that the Celtics didn't start winning until they got Russell. Yes, Wilt dominated Russell, but he dominated everyone. But, Russell made Wilt's number manageable. Russell tells one story where one of his teammates got into Wilt's face and was taunting him. Russell was pissed and pulled him aside and asked him what he was doing? He said you make Wilt mad and I'M the one who has to suffer!

    Russell lost the battles, but won the wars. Russell's team beat Wilt's team every time, but one.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bogozags View Post
    In addition, I believe the free throw lane was widened because of Wilt - the original width of the lane was narrower than today’s NCAA lane and was eventually moved to where the NBA lane’s width is today. and the rule that the free throw had to touch the rim was because Wilt would “shoot” the ball off the backboard, catch it and then dunk.
    Wrong. Look it up. (I did it for you...)

    "The NCAA did in fact rewrite rules in response to Russell's dominant play; the lane was widened for his junior year. After he graduated, the NCAA rules committee instituted a second new rule to counter the play of big men like Russell; basket interference was now prohibited."


    Quote Originally Posted by Bogozags View Post
    I am also of the opinion that Larry Bird was the best Celtic to date.
    My father was a huge Celtics fan, so I grew up a Celtics fan. I've read books on Red Auerbach, Bill Russell, Bob Cousy, John 'Hondo' Havlicek, and Larry Bird. I'm a member of two Celtic forums and post there too.

    I've seen this debate numerous times and Celtic fans know who is the best Celtic.
    Last edited by Robzagnut; 12-18-2018 at 07:41 AM. Reason: Added the Russell rule change.

  9. #34
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    I like the idea of fewer retired but more players recognized. Adam Morrison deserves to have his retired, but for 10 to 20years down the way, people like Karnowski, Sabbonis, Nigel, and others that helped start this run also should be recognized. Start by doing four or five and then each year have some voting like they have for putting players into the hall of fame. And this would include coaches,but only after they retire. This would be someone like Hank Anderson.

  10. #35
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    [QUOTE=CDC84;1418707]And did it while coming to America from a different country across the Atlantic.[/QUOTE

    Yes, and thanks for adding the language barrier to the list. Shem speaks fluid English and boy, English is a long way from Polish dialect. Not as far off as Japanese I believe, but still a real stretch. If all our foreign players can do as well as Shem
    with English, they can all get great jobs in their country’s diplomatic corps. Gonzaga, door way to world diplomacy!

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robzagnut View Post
    I agree. Then Karno should quickly follow.




    There's no coincidence that the Celtics didn't start winning until they got Russell. Yes, Wilt dominated Russell, but he dominated everyone. But, Russell made Wilt's number manageable. Russell tells one story where one of his teammates got into Wilt's face and was taunting him. Russell was pissed and pulled him aside and asked him what he was doing? He said you make Wilt mad and I'M the one who has to suffer!

    Russell lost the battles, but won the wars. Russell's team beat Wilt's team every time, but one.






    Wrong. Look it up. (I did it for you...)

    "The NCAA did in fact rewrite rules in response to Russell's dominant play; the lane was widened for his junior year. After he graduated, the NCAA rules committee instituted a second new rule to counter the play of big men like Russell; basket interference was now prohibited."




    My father was a huge Celtics fan, so I grew up a Celtics fan. I've read books on Red Auerbach, Bill Russell, Bob Cousy, John 'Hondo' Havlicek, and Larry Bird. I'm a member of two Celtic forums and post there too.

    I've seen this debate numerous times and Celtic fans know who is the best Celtic.
    I respect your opinion on Russell but my opinion is different...I remember watching the NBA all the time back then...they played team basketball much like the GS Warriors today. Bill was the post player the most dominant TEAM in NBA history but IMO Larry Bird is the best basketball player in Boston's history.

    Think I read somewhere that, the starting five of the top 50 players of all time would be Kareem, Magic, Michael, Larry and Dr. J.

    By the way, I was not talking about the NCAA widening of the key but rather the NBA.

  12. #37
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    This is an interesting topic because each "era" of post 1997 served as a stepping stone to where we are now, and without them we never would have achieved our current success. Prior to Austin Daye, Kelly O, etc, Gonzaga was a guard first, big man 2nd era and the likes of Matt Santangelo (and others) were just as "important" as our potential players of the year today in terms of how important it was for GU basketball. Matt was never going to be an NBA star, but without him we would potentially be in a very different place. Do I think you retire his jersey? Probably not, but it's fun to discuss where honors start and end. Do you judge a jersey retirement in comparison to GU basketball standards, or national standards? If Brandon Clark turned into the player of the year and single handedly won us a national title, but is a grad transfer, does that even warrant consideration because he was at Gonzaga for like a minute.
    Krozman
    GU student 1996-2000
    Law Student 2000-2003

  13. #38
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    I gotta weigh in on this one. My family moved to a little town north of Philly in '66 when I was 12, but I was already a Sixers fan as a kid in Minnesota before that. Went to a bunch of games at the Spectrum in the late 60's. I idolized Billy Cunningham and as a fellow lefty playing the same position in jr high. I patterned my game after his.

    First, Wilt never dominated Russell. He did put up bigger scoring numbers, but Wilt was always about his ego and his stats. (Think 20,000, and I don't mean points or rebounds). Even led the league in assists once in his later years just to show he could do it. Russell was about winning plays, as his two championships at USF to go w/ his 11 w/ the Celts proves. Much as I loved the Sixers in those days, it's my contention that if you flipped Wilt and Bill, the Sixers would have approached those 11 titles instead of having one.

    In addition to Wilt, the Sixers had 6'9, 260 lb pf Luke Jackson, the first true power forward in the game and the prototype for those who followed at the position. He was paired with Chet the Jet Walker, an all star, with all timer Cunningham coming off the bench as 6th man. HOF'er Hall Greer, 20k pt scorer, was in the backcourt with Wally Jones, backed up by Matt Goukas.

    Celts had the Jones boys at guard, KC and Sam, who matched up ok w/ Greer and Jones. And they had Hondo at 6th man, who matched up ok w/ Cunningham, but BC was the better athlete imo and more explosive going to the hoop. Bailey Howell was a good scorer at forward for the Celts, but Don Nelson and Satch Sanders, the other two rotation guys for the Celts, wouldn't have cracked the Sixers' rotation in the late 60's.

    The talent was on the Sixers' side by a good margin, but they only cashed in on it one time. Russell dominated the game like no one else ever has on the defensive end. They put in the goaltending rule because of him, not Wilt. He would block a shot and redirect it to a position where a streaking Jones could pick up the blocked shot for a breakaway layup. He made everyone around him better in a way that no other big save one season of a healthy Walton ever has.

    This is the point of view of a kid who loved the Sixers and hated the Celtics, because they always beat my team. But what's true is true. IMO.

  14. #39
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    Great narrative, Maynard. Thanks for sharing


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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by maynard g krebs View Post
    I gotta weigh in on this one. My family moved to a little town north of Philly in '66 when I was 12, but I was already a Sixers fan as a kid in Minnesota before that. Went to a bunch of games at the Spectrum in the late 60's. I idolized Billy Cunningham and as a fellow lefty playing the same position in jr high. I patterned my game after his.

    First, Wilt never dominated Russell. He did put up bigger scoring numbers, but Wilt was always about his ego and his stats. (Think 20,000, and I don't mean points or rebounds). Even led the league in assists once in his later years just to show he could do it. Russell was about winning plays, as his two championships at USF to go w/ his 11 w/ the Celts proves. Much as I loved the Sixers in those days, it's my contention that if you flipped Wilt and Bill, the Sixers would have approached those 11 titles instead of having one.

    In addition to Wilt, the Sixers had 6'9, 260 lb pf Luke Jackson, the first true power forward in the game and the prototype for those who followed at the position. He was paired with Chet the Jet Walker, an all star, with all timer Cunningham coming off the bench as 6th man. HOF'er Hall Greer, 20k pt scorer, was in the backcourt with Wally Jones, backed up by Matt Goukas.

    Celts had the Jones boys at guard, KC and Sam, who matched up ok w/ Greer and Jones. And they had Hondo at 6th man, who matched up ok w/ Cunningham, but BC was the better athlete imo and more explosive going to the hoop. Bailey Howell was a good scorer at forward for the Celts, but Don Nelson and Satch Sanders, the other two rotation guys for the Celts, wouldn't have cracked the Sixers' rotation in the late 60's.

    The talent was on the Sixers' side by a good margin, but they only cashed in on it one time. Russell dominated the game like no one else ever has on the defensive end. They put in the goaltending rule because of him, not Wilt. He would block a shot and redirect it to a position where a streaking Jones could pick up the blocked shot for a breakaway layup. He made everyone around him better in a way that no other big save one season of a healthy Walton ever has.

    This is the point of view of a kid who loved the Sixers and hated the Celtics, because they always beat my team. But what's true is true. IMO.

    Thanks Maynard. Backs up what my father told me for years and years.

    And I agree about Walton and the Portland Trailblazers. That was a special team the year they won the title. They were something like 50-10 the next year until Walton got hurt. Have never seen a center with such great passing skills and perfect rebounding technique.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogozags View Post
    Think I read somewhere that, the starting five of the top 50 players of all time would be Kareem, Magic, Michael, Larry and Dr. J.
    That's an old old list. Dr J wouldn't be in the top 3 small forwards these days. LeBron James passes the Doctor. And Bird was a small forward, because Kevin McHale was the PF.

    If you go to a panel of experts like the one from Sports Illustrated:

    https://www.si.com/nba/2016/02/26/mi...-starting-five

    You will see that Bill Russell makes 3 of 5 lists while Bird makes 2 of 5 lists.

    My top 5 are:

    PG - Magic Johnson
    SG - Michael Jordan
    SF - LeBron James
    PF - Tim Duncan
    C - Bill Russell

  17. #42
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    I remember Russell at the very least holding his own defending Chamberlain and more often than not coming out on top. JMO.
    Birddog

    Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
    Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
    All mimsy were the borogoves,
    And the mome raths outgrabe.

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    Magic, Michael, Bird, Russell, Baylor. Can’t leave Baylor off the list. His stats; scoring, rebounds and assists in aggregate, still better than any other small forward.

    I will lose his argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MontanaCoyote View Post
    Magic, Michael, Bird, Russell, Baylor. Can’t leave Baylor off the list. His stats; scoring, rebounds and assists in aggregate, still better than any other small forward.

    I will lose his argument.
    Everybody is forgetting the Big "O" too.
    Birddog

    Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
    Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
    All mimsy were the borogoves,
    And the mome raths outgrabe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Birddog View Post
    Everybody is forgetting the Big "O" too.
    That’s right! It hurts to leave him off my list, not only because he was such a great player but because he continues to go to bat for Baylor. Believes Baylor is the best all around player in NBA history because Baylor not only averaged over 27 a game but, at only 6’5”, pulled down 15 boards a game, which too many small forwards that followed Baylor just didn’t, rather make that couldn’t or wouldn’t, do. He admires Baylor for being a complete player and has offered that Baylor tops Jordan because Elgin battled inside while Jordan was not so inclined.

    I, Like Oscar, am “old school” on this. So no way he or I wins this argument.

    But I was fortunate enough to watch both Elgin and Oscar play college ball and pro ball in person, so I’m a true believer.
    Last edited by MontanaCoyote; 12-19-2018 at 03:26 PM. Reason: Spelling, grammar

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogozags View Post
    First off...AMMO and Vandersloot’s numbers should be in the rafters.

    Secondly, Bill Russell was the starting center on some of the GREATEST NBA TEAMS of all time, which is why the Celtics won so many NBA Championships! I would say that if he and Wilt switched teams, then Wilt would have won all those rings and Bill might have one or two, because Wilt DOMINATED Bill EVERYTIME they played BUT the Celtics won all but one championship (1966) when the two played for the Celtics and 76ers.

    In addition, I believe the free throw lane was widened because of Wilt - the original width of the lane was narrower than today’s NCAA lane and was eventually moved to where the NBA lane’s width is today. and the rule that the free throw had to touch the rim was because Wilt would “shoot” the ball off the backboard, catch it and then dunk.

    I am also of the opinion that Larry Bird was the best Celtic to date.
    I think the next jersey hoisted-up should be Courtney Vandersloot's: She is one of the greatest college basketball players I've ever watched, men or women. If you never saw her play at Gonzaga, you cheated yourself. I remember talking to Kelly Graves about her, and I mused that Mark Few would love to have a player like her on the men's team. He responded, "I think Mark would love to have her on his team." Next up, Morrison.

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