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Thread: Stanford - What did We Learn

  1. #1
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    Default Stanford - What did We Learn

    Well, I have lost this twice by being way too wordy and being automatically logged out. Soooo, a summary is all you get. The good, the bad and the ugly.

    The Good

    Best 3 quarters of basketball I have seen the Lady Zags play stretching from the game plan, to the player execution as well as in-game and halftime adjustments, it was top notch all-around.

    For the 3rd game in a row, everybody who played got a rebound and fpr the second game in a row, everybody who played scored (at least 4 points on Sunday). What a team.

    Shooting: 54.2% overall, 61.5% from 3 and 86.4% from the charity strip. We will take it, just like that every game.

    The player of the game, for me, KC who shot 5-6 overall (all from 3) for 83.3% and was our leading rebounder with 7. It is not the size of the player, but the size of a player's heart and KC has some kind of heart.

    When it came down to crunch time, JT smoothly and confidently drained a 3 and CS took over making the short jumper and free throws to seal the victory. ice in their veins. Great Job.


    The Bad

    23 turnovers!! That is 23 more possessions you gave Stanford and 23 less possessions the Lady Zags had to score. If you assume a team scores on 40% of their possessions, this would give Stanford 18 more points (40% of 23=9 baskets @ 2pts per basket) and keep Gonzaga from scoring 18 points for a total point swing of 36 points. Yes you get some back on Stanford's turnovers, but you get the point. Very difficult to win if you have 23 turnovers.

    Our senior backcourt accounted for 11 of the turnovers. CS has to make better passes, not lazy, loopy, ones to the inside of the receiver. LS needs to quit picking up her dribble in the middle of the key or in the corner where she gets double teamed. If you don't know where you are going to pass it, don't quit dribbling. All of the guards who insist on passing to the inside big who is double or triple teamed, what exactly to you expect them to do with it? A turnover is usually what happens, poor decision. If somebody is double or triple teamed, somebody else is open. Just saying.


    The Ugly

    CLF's decision to go into "run clock" mode and back off the defense to keep from fouling and giving Stanford free points. I'm sorry, but that is by far, IMO, the biggest boneheaded call of the year. I have gone over every metric, every statistic I can find and absolutely nothing supports changing from how the game was played the first 3 quarters. Just like Tennessee, the backcourt could not handle the pressure leading to turnovers. We did not have a decent inbounds play to keep the guards out of the corners and free and easy baskets were passed up in order to run time off the clock. This decision just about cost the ladies the game they had played so hard to win. We all have seen the results of the "run clock" mode against P-6 teams. It does not work for the CLF coached Lady Zags, time to put this one back on the shelf, or game plan an offense and inbounds play(s) that will work.

    My solution to the "run clock" mode is to inform the assistant coaches if CLF calls for the "run clock" mode, she be sent to the showers for the rest of the game and you take over as a relief coach. Problem solved.


    What Have We Learned

    What we have found out is that this year's lady zag team is not the tallest team, but we are not too short. They are not the most athletic team, but they can find their way around the court pretty well. They are not the strongest team, but you probably would not want to get into a wrestling match with any of them. They are not the biggest team, but they very well might be the scrappiest team. This team knows that while they may not have a superstar to fell a giant opponent, the same opponent can be mastered by applying a 1,000 smaller punches by the entire team. The old question of "how do you eat an elephant? Has a response that applies to this year's lady zag team; answer - "One bite at a time".

    What we have learned is that this year's Gonzaga Wbb squad is a real team in every sense of the word. There are no superstars as such, but everybody contributes on both sides of the ball and works their butts off for each other. There is no lack of hustle, no lack of grit and no lack of determination.

    And best of all, this is my team, and your team, and...…….

    Next up is an opportunity to show the WSU Cougars, the Pac-12 and the rest of the nation, why this is the 'BEST" team.

    Ladies, let's get us some cougar.

    ZagDad

  2. #2
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    I think that drives almost all fans nuts--run clock, the stall, go conservative, play not to lose, quit doing what got you the lead, etc. Basketball and football. Sooooo many coaches do it, they must have some reason to think it's the best strategy. But we've all seen leads evaporate almost as soon as this tactic is employed. I don't get it either.

  3. #3
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    The are some situations I think can call for it, but in general:

    IMO, the only thing a prevent defense does is prevent victory.

    ZagDad

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagDad84 View Post
    Ladies, let's get us some cougar.

    ZagDad
    Too funny!

    #GoWCC



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  5. #5
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    The old adage... one game doesn’t make a season.
    The Stanford game was great... and it is something to be proud of. But lots of season left.
    Lots of positives and negatives to look at.
    No sneaking up on anyone now and everyone will be bringing their “A” game.
    The one thing this team has... gamers.
    This team isn’t just the starting 5... we have commented on the strength of the bench and how it will make a difference.
    Lots of season and challenges lie ahead and I think the players and coaches are looking forward to them.

    Go Zags!!

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    "gamers" is a good word.....a good description....

    what makes people think that it was CLF who told the team to go into slowdown?.....sometimes the players themselves subconsciously slow down....afterall, in this game, the team was up to a 17 point lead......it would be natural for them to soften....

    the turnovers were all IMO due to our lack of paying attention, being lazy....Stanford just took advantage......

    luckily, the girls did enough right....infact many things right.....that they sealed the deal....

    I especially like the short 2 point jumpers....like when Katie had her 3 point attempt batted down and then she grabbed the rebound ..what else...and kicked it over to Melody and Mel just took the short jumper and made it....that was just a dagger into Stanford, just like with the next offensive play after a scrum JT picked up the ball and shot a two.....perfect....

    we have seen the team play badly against Col St.. and then we get a great game against Stanford....

    when they get consistent, they'll be contenders....like Katie said....the team can be "shockingly good"!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sylean View Post
    "what makes people think that it was CLF who told the team to go into slowdown?.....sometimes the players themselves subconsciously slow down....afterall, in this game, the team was up to a 17 point lead......it would be natural for them to soften....
    If it was just a slowing down of the frenetic pace of the game, yes you could be right the players could have done it. But, when you combine the slowing of the pace, with dribbling around until there are 10-15 secs left on the shot clock, not passing the ball to wide open players on the wing and choosing to continue dribbling, not driving to the basket when there is nobody in the lane, not protecting the hoop against Stanford drives allowing them free access to the hoop, then this goes way beyond players simply slowing down because of a lead. This "is a run clock offense" called by the coach, not a players decision.

    You know the team well enough that LS would not ignore a chance to take it to a wide open hoop if she was free to do as she wanted. The first time LS got called for a 10 second call she would put the bit between her teeth and get those 2 points back in any way possible. ZR would not put her arms down and let an opponent drive to the hoop, she would challenge anybody that came inside and challenge every shot.

    Nope, this was a CLF call and the wrong one. Thankfully, it was only the score difference that was impacted...……….This time.

    ZagDad

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    the turnovers were all IMO due to our lack of paying attention, being lazy....Stanford just took advantage......
    This ^^^^^^^ is the problem. We have this same discussion after essentially every game and yet we have an entire backcourt of Juniors and Seniors, not freshman and sophomores.

    They know better and are better than this.

    ZagDad

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    If you are going to do a slowdown... and it may be needed, then have a play that does that and practice it everyday...
    It’s like a play to break the press. And by the way... we missed Jessie.
    Turnovers... we have been pretty good about taking care of the ball. But you are right about some bad passes. If the team hadn’t been shooting the ball well, the turnovers would have been more of a problem.
    Sylean mentioned consistent... she is correct. Good teams usually are consistent... they practice it.
    I’m pretty sure the coaches have graded the game and as smart as this team is... will talk about it.
    Now for WSU... Stanford, a fond memory.

    Go Zags!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagDad84 View Post
    This ^^^^^^^ is the problem. We have this same discussion after essentially every game and yet we have an entire backcourt of Juniors and Seniors, not freshman and sophomores.

    They know better and are better than this.

    ZagDad
    Well, this is an oft repeated theme in your ongoing analyses. So, can we assume you're primarily referring to LS? She who registers the most minutes played, sinks a miniscule 13% of her 3 point attempts (not many taken, but it's certainly a puzzler when she's making 9 out of every 10 free throws) and is way out front in turnovers per game? There's something psychological going on there. If she was at Montana State, for example, I believe she'd be leading the Big Sky in assist/turnover rate, steals, and in the top five scorers as well. As it stands, she's fallen, by a large margin, short of her own expectations as a GU senior, let alone the unrealistic expectations Zag fans heaped upon her three years ago based almost exclusively on her pedigree. Nothing to be done but empathize with her situation and feel bad for her.

  11. #11

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    We complain that CLF runs the clock. Im sure Stanford fans dont understand why Tara waited until the 4th quarter to press. Its impossible for coaches to make everyone happy.

    My positives would be the girls made some big shots in this game when things werent going well. Showed themselves they could wether a comeback and close out a game without Barta. First time they have had to do that.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by upan8th View Post
    Well, this is an oft repeated theme in your ongoing analyses. So, can we assume you're primarily referring to LS? She who registers the most minutes played, sinks a miniscule 13% of her 3 point attempts (not many taken, but it's certainly a puzzler when she's making 9 out of every 10 free throws) and is way out front in turnovers per game? There's something psychological going on there. If she was at Montana State, for example, I believe she'd be leading the Big Sky in assist/turnover rate, steals, and in the top five scorers as well. As it stands, she's fallen, by a large margin, short of her own expectations as a GU senior, let alone the unrealistic expectations Zag fans heaped upon her three years ago based almost exclusively on her pedigree. Nothing to be done but empathize with her situation and feel bad for her.
    If I am complaining about turnovers, I am complaining about turnovers, no matter who makes them. Against Stanford, more than half of the turnovers were made by the backcourt, so this week they were called out. Last year, the two top leaders in the turnover category (for the season) were Jill Barta and Z. Rice, neither player a guard or wing. Effort turnovers are easier to excuse than turnovers due to inattention, poor choices, etc. Each of the three (3) starters in the backcourt' LS, CS and JL have led the team in t/o's at least once this year and since the backcourt handles the ball the most, this is not unexpected. Ideally, you would want to keep your turnovers as low as possible, but a realistic goal would be say 8-12 a game or less. Every turnover is one less possession for you and one more possession for your opponent. Just like in football, you simply cannot keep giving the ball to your opponent and not expect it to affect the outcome in the game. If the Lady Zags have 15+ turnovers in a game, for me this is excessive and additional work needs to be done to reduce these and I will point it out in my analysis.

    I rarely use assist to turnover ratios except maybe to track how a player has been progressing throughout their career. As noted above, I am concerned about the turnovers, but not just the turnovers, the silly, easily avoidable turnovers. I have not even looked at the career or season assist to turnover stats on any player this year let alone LS. If you want her stats for assists to turnover ratio for her four years (freshman to senior) they are 1.15, 1.95, 1.65 & 1.85 so far this year. As a base of reference to the best ever at GU, Courtney Vandersloot's assist to turnover ratios for her four years were 1.85, 1.99, 2.21 & 3.08.

    I look at "team' turnovers, team shooting percentages, team rebounds, etc. not necessarily individual statistics unless something jumps out at me. Student athletes get sick, have migraines, have school issues, family issues, away from home issues, etc. just like everybody else. It is impossible for every player to be "on" every night. As long as the "team" plays well, the rest of the team will pick up for the player who was not quite on that night. Particularly this year, you have no idea who is going to lead the team in scoring, rebounds, assists and yes even turnovers. As long as the team is shooting well, rebounding well and limiting their turnovers, we will typically win the game. If we play a little better and work a little harder sometimes we can pull off an unexpected win like Sunday.

    We all do our best and not try to have expectations on incoming players, but you are right, we fans probably due have some preset expectations based on name recognition, their high school recruiting ranking, etc. I try very hard not to let "who" had a bad game cloud my analysis. I realize that this game is very fluid and a bad game or set of games does not make a season. Just because LS is shooting 13% from 3 does not mean that she won't hit the game winner on Saturday against WSU (as she has done numerous times in her career).

    If somebody is trying to compare LS to her father, perhaps they should take a look at the record book. While John is an NBA Hall of Famer, his college career is somewhat less distinguished. While best known for assists, at Gonzaga, John only had two of the top 10 best individual seasons for assists at #3 and tied for #7. In career assists, John holds down the #4 slot behind Santangelo, Stepp and Pargo. Laura, will likely have none of the top 10 individual season assist numbers, but, as noted in the "Chasing Records" thread, she is currently #6 in career assists, and barring any injury, will likely make it to #3 slot in career assists or one step above her dad. Not to bad.

    It is frequently stated that all I see and focus on is the poor play of the players and I don't see the good play and effort the players put forth and this is were they are wrong. There are more than enough people with their glasses half full, looking through rose-colored glasses, riding unicorns and presenting accolade after accolade on this board. Fabulous, the board needs those (and any really) posters. IMO, the boards work best when we have a variety of opinions expressed on the board, so I leave the entirely positive reviews to others and I will take the heat for the "needs improvement" posts which I try to temper with some positive accolades. Sometimes I am successful and sometimes, not so much.

    Finally, keep in mind that while a player may be having a bad game does not mean we do not need them in the game. If LS is turning the ball over or shooting poorly, maybe she is picking up charge in the key or getting a steal by sagging into the key. CS had a bad game with her passing on Sunday, but when the game was on the line, did she not hit the 10' stop and pop shot for 2, get the defensive rebound at the other end and then hit the two free throws for the win? How many times have we seen Jessie and her quick hands make a steal on a crossover and take it to the hoop or hit an open 3 when the opponent is sagging on defense. Every player brings something to the table that we need and even if today is not their day does not mean they did not contribute, sometimes greatly, to the outcome of the game.

    Finally, yes if LS went to a Big Sky school, yes she would be one of if not the league leader in assists, points, steals, etc. But that is because she is a much better player than the Big Sky and the opponents in the Big Sky are not of the same skill level as she is seeing with Gonzaga. Laura is doing just fine at Gonzaga and she will be remembered as one of the best. The only person who may be unsatisfied with her career will be as you said, herself.

    Now, if she would keep maybe one more pass per game out of the stands and pick up her dribble one less time...…..

    ZagDad

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    I learned that women's fans are better than men's fans.

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    LS is the point guard and she like the other seniors have improved over their college years.... she has many pgs to study but the improvement is all hers. The only comment I would make... give the defender a little credit... you talked about the talent on Stanford’s team...
    I would like to see LS really work on her 3... thinking back to Sloot, if the defense started sagging on her or filling a lane, she would pop a 3 to bring them back to her. I have seen this with LS where the defense is leaving her alone and filling the lanes.
    Things to work on and I’m sure they will... great teams improve as the season progresses.

    Let’s fill the kennel!

    Go Zags!!

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    you're too hard on LS......she is a force.....I appreciate her passion and she does many things well.....

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    "I learned that women's fans are better than men's fans."

    this.....

    we don't go to the men's games but I've been told by people that many fans sit on their hands, leave at halftime, and basically come to the games to "be seen".....

    okay, so we womens bb fans might be a motley crew, a little grey around the edges but overall pretty astute bb fans.....and very passionate.....

  17. #17
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    Keep in mind that the stated goal (in numerous interviews) of this year's senior team members (LS, CS & ZR, but particularly LS) is they want to win an NCAA tournament game. Not win the WCC Championship, not win the WCC tourney, but win an NCAA tournament game. They realize that to get to the NCAA tournament they likely will have to win the WCC and the WCC tourney, but their goal is to win a NCAA tournament game. This is their goal, not mine, not yours, but the seniors.

    Why? This year's senior class is the first senior class in a long time not to have won an NCAA tournament game, as they came to GU after CLF's 1st season run to the sweet 16. The team members, other than the freshman, have won one or more WCC championships and the WCC tournaments. The hole in the senior's resume' (according to them) is an NCAA tournament win.

    I begin my reviews on what the team did or did not do in the game to improve their chances to reach the stated goal by the seniors. I have given up hoping to make this into a "discussion" board. It simply does not happen. Unless, of course, I strike a chord to piss off a bunch of people, members on this board rarely post more than once on any topic. Hard to have a discussion with a single post. I don't write my reviews for those of you who go to the game or watch it on TV. You have already seen the game, you certainly don't need me telling you what you saw.

    I write my reviews for the board members who read this board who are out of town, board members who could not make it to the game, board members who do not post, people who do not have the opportunity to come to the game like CG3 (an LMU fan), SeaCat (Pac-12 and women sports supporter) and others. I am sorry if I happen to find fault with a play or your favorite player on any given day. It does not mean the player is not all-WCC, does not have many quality skills, does not mean they didn't put the winning touches on the game, etc. It means they had a "not so good" game. A game that they did not play up to their very high standards, Get over it, it happens to everybody.

    You call out the GU backcourt in 2-3 straight games and all of a sudden, I am supposedly questioning the lack of improvement of LS over her entire career. I am calling out LS's lineage. This is nuts. The backcourt has had a couple of "bad" games. Poor offensive execution against Colorado State and too many turnovers against Stanford, that is it. There is nothing implied beyond just what I wrote in my analysis of "One" particular game.

    If you don't like my review, great, maybe I did not write it for you. Or maybe post and let's have a "discussion" about what I may have missed or misinterpreted, etc. I am up for it are you?

    ZagDad

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    Quote Originally Posted by sylean View Post
    you're too hard on LS......she is a force.....I appreciate her passion and she does many things well.....
    That is just rich coming from a person who had nothing good to say about Georgia Stirton the entire two years she was here and all Georgia did was lead us to a Sweet 16 in her first year in D-1 from a Junior College. The only other point guards who had done that at Gonzaga are Taelor Karr/Haiden Palmer/Keani Albanez, and Courtney Vandersloot.

    In the interest of full disclosure, I do not remember who played the primary point in 2011/12 and who played the shooting guard so I listed all three primary guards. I am sure that in the CV years, particularly in her freshman and sophomore years that there may have been additional guards (Meghan Winters, Tiffanie Shives, etc.) who may have played a significant amount of time at the point.

    In any case, Georgia Stirton was probably the starting player who was treated with the least respect on this board, yet she is one of a few to lead her team to the sweet 16.

    ZagDad

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    I don't recall being mean or cruel to GS at all.....she was one of the 5 pg that KG handed schollies to for ONE year...Bando, ES, Laura Cornelius, Kacie Bosch, and and GS.....all for one class......GS was okay, she certainly was a nice person and did some good things....but not great......if she was lucky to be here for a Ncaa run, good for her......but she wasn't the reason for it......

    my fondest memory of GS consists of two incidences....first, in a game, during a play, she bent down and helped an opposing player off the floor then continued on....never have seen someone do that during play...thought it was pretty cool....

    second was during the Tenn game when we were 16 pts ahead.....GS is dribbling down the court and dribbles the ball off her foot......I saw it so clearly and said to my self......that's it....

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