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Thread: WCC vs. MWC Academics

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    Default WCC vs. MWC Academics

    Some don't care about this, and we all understand that this is a basketball decision. However, it is worth noting that the BIG 10, Pac-12, Big East, and ACC talk about academics when they are adding members. The WCC, by accident or by design, is one of the top undergraduate academic sports conferences in the nation. The MWC is at the opposite end of the spectrum. The reason conferences and schools consider the collective academic prestige of a conference is because, historically, the Universities you associate with has some impact on a schools perceived place in the academic strata, for what it's worth.

    Observing this without malice, as many others have done, is not some sort of academic snobbery--it's just an observation of current rankings. Talented people who go on to accomplish a lot come out of all Universities, and many come from the school of hard knocks. Below, I separate National and Regional Universities (the distinction between the two is the number of graduate programs a University has). With that, here are the actual rankings from U.S. World News:

    National Universities in the WCC and MWC:

    #46 Pepperdine
    #61 BYU
    #90 San Diego
    #110 San Francisco (tie)
    #110 Pacific (tie)

    #124 Colorado State
    #140 SDSU
    #159 Hawaii
    #181 Wyoming
    #192 New Mexico
    #202 Nevada
    #216 Utah State
    #223 Fresno State
    Unranked Boise State (they don't rank National Universities past #230)
    Unranked UNLV

    Western Regionally ranked Universities in the WCC and MWC:

    #2 Santa Clara
    #3 LMU
    #4 Gonzaga
    #6 Portland
    #9 SMC

    #35 San Jose State

    (Up to 2017, UNLV, Boise, and Fresno were ranked in the 60's and 70's as Western Region Universities, but they were reclassified as Unranked National Universities, or--#223 for Fresno--for 2018).
    Western Region University rankings go to #95 (46 more are Unranked).

    https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges...versities-west

    https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges...l-universities
    Last edited by HillZag; 03-09-2018 at 08:38 AM.
    "My golf is woeful, but I will never surrender."--Bing Crosby

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    Quote Originally Posted by HillZag View Post
    Some don't care about this, and we all understand that this is a basketball decision. However, it is worth noting that the BIG 10, Pac-12, Big East, and ACC talk about academics when they are adding members. The WCC, by accident or by design, is one of the top undergraduate academic sports conferences in the nation. The MWC is at the opposite end of the spectrum. The reason conferences and schools consider the collective academic prestige of a conference is because, historically, the Universities you associate with has some impact on a schools perceived place in the academic strata, for what it's worth.

    Observing this without malice, as many others have done, is not some sort of academic snobbery--it's just an observation of current rankings. Talented people who go on to accomplish a lot come out of all Universities, and many come from the school of hard knocks. Below, I separate National and Regional Universities (the distinction between the two is the number of graduate programs a University has). With that, here are the actual rankings from U.S. World News:

    National Universities in the WCC and MWC:

    #46 Pepperdine
    #61 BYU
    #90 San Diego
    #110 (tie) San Francisco
    #110 (tie) Pacific

    #124 Colorado State
    #140 SDSU
    #159 Hawaii
    #181 Wyoming
    #192 New Mexico
    #202 Nevada
    #216 Utah State
    #223 Fresno State
    Unranked Boise State (they don't rank National Universities past #230)
    Unranked UNLV

    Western Regionally ranked Universities in the WCC and MWC:

    #2 Santa Clara
    #3 LMU
    #4 Gonzaga
    #6 Portland
    #9 SMC

    #35 San Jose State
    (Up to 2017, UNLV, Boise, and Fresno were ranked in the 60's and 70's as Western Region Universities, but they were reclassified as Unranked National Universities, or--#223 for Fresno--for 2018).
    Western Region University rankings go to #95 (46 more are Unranked).

    https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges...versities-west

    https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges...l-universities
    Could not care less about academics between the two conferences. I root for the basketball team, not the debate team. When UNC, one of the top public universities in the nation literally created fake classes for their athletes, it was quite apparent that big time college athletics don't care at all about academics.

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    It's not close. Like the WCC and the Patriot league not close.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thespywhozaggedme View Post
    Could not care less about academics between the two conferences. I root for the basketball team, not the debate team. When UNC, one of the top public universities in the nation literally created fake classes for their athletes, it was quite apparent that big time college athletics don't care at all about academics.
    I understand that some don't care. I guarantee you the Gonzaga brass has considered it.

    UNC cheating doesn't undo the fact that the ACC as a league clearly cares a lot about the academic reputation of its members.
    "My golf is woeful, but I will never surrender."--Bing Crosby

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    It's not close. Like the WCC and the Patriot league not close.
    Correct. Not close as in, the top school in the MWC would be ranked last in the WCC.
    "My golf is woeful, but I will never surrender."--Bing Crosby

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    The only academics I care about are those for our players. Since I wouldn't expect that would change with or without a move, it doesn't really concern me. Sure the other teams could, at some level, get guys that wouldn't qualify at GU but I also don't think those guys would be recruited by the staff anyway.

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    I would hope and imagine that, to the extent there is a major negative to a move, then this is it. A major step down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HillZag View Post
    I understand that some don't care. I guarantee you the Gonzaga brass has considered it.

    UNC cheating doesn't undo the fact that the ACC as a league clearly cares a lot about the academic reputation of its members.
    Yes it does, that's exactly what it does. They put athletics above academics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thespywhozaggedme View Post
    Could not care less about academics between the two conferences. I root for the basketball team, not the debate team. When UNC, one of the top public universities in the nation literally created fake classes for their athletes, it was quite apparent that big time college athletics don't care at all about academics.
    And ultimately that shows, you've made it clear over and over again you think this is a no brainer. The thing is there are many of us who are looking at this beyond Men's Basketball. (Yes of course it's a factor).

    Many in the community want to see a move that benefits all of our programs, that allows the best opportunities for all of our athletes, that allows Gonzaga as an institution to be associated with like-minded schools, be it through academics or spirituality.

    Or maybe something as simple as being able to go to Zags games when they are playing in our home town (in the WCC footprint), or perhaps being able to watch Gonzaga semi regularly on ESPN because we've never even realized there is a MW channel or what channel CBSSN is on, and do we get that?

    You've made it clear, to you this is about basketball.
    I think it's about more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    I would hope and imagine that, to the extent there is a major negative to a move, then this is it. A major step down.
    Why do you as a fan care? I couldn't care less of the academic standing of the school that I root for. I don't root for the debate team. I think it's just for show and bragging rights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kong-Kool-Aid View Post
    And ultimately that shows, you've made it clear over and over again you think this is a no brainer. The thing is there are many of us who are looking at this beyond Men's Basketball. (Yes of course it's a factor).

    Many in the community want to see a move that benefits all of our programs, that allows the best opportunities for all of our athletes, that allows Gonzaga as an institution to be associated with like-minded schools, be it through academics or spirituality.

    Or maybe something as simple as being able to go to Zags games when they are playing in our home town (in the WCC footprint), or perhaps being able to watch Gonzaga semi regularly on ESPN because we've never even realized there is a MW channel or what channel CBSSN is on, and do we get that?

    You've made it clear, to you this is about basketball.
    I think it's about more.
    Not a "no brainer" the Big East would be a "no brainer" but Gonzaga in the WCC is akin to Villanova playing in the Patriot League. The MWC is an upgrade. And the MWC with Gonzaga will be on ESPN, you have nothing to worry about there.

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    Gonzaga academics and standards will not change with conference -- Gonzaga will have the same expectations and standards -- will go from the top of the WCC to the top of the MWC.

    When you add in football players to the academics equation -- they will tilt the GPA in a specific direction on average.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thespywhozaggedme View Post
    Why do you as a fan care? I couldn't care less of the academic standing of the school that I root for. I don't root for the debate team. I think it's just for show and bragging rights.
    Whether you think so or not, more than sports is being considered. If GU does decide to join the MWC, you can bet that the decision makers made a sort of "hold your nose and take a bite" decision. It's a sort of "This is the way life is son," fact.
    "My golf is woeful, but I will never surrender."--Bing Crosby

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    Quote Originally Posted by thespywhozaggedme View Post
    Why do you as a fan care? I couldn't care less of the academic standing of the school that I root for. I don't root for the debate team. I think it's just for show and bragging rights.
    We could not disagree more. Part of what attracted me to GU in the first place as a fan is it's strong academics. For alumni, the value of their degree is directly affected by the perceived current quality of the academics at their alma mater. If a GU degree was a common stock, a move to the MWC would immediately drop the value of the stock. OTOH, a trip to the F4 and a Top 10 rank are plusses. So the brass at GU are involved in weighing and balancing all these and statements like yours are way outside the pale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thespywhozaggedme View Post
    Why do you as a fan care? I couldn't care less of the academic standing of the school that I root for. I don't root for the debate team. I think it's just for show and bragging rights.
    Possibly because more to life than basketball and that most student athletes don't go on to make money in a given sport? Gonzaga has a long list of former student athletes that have become respectable in other walks of life, other than the sport they partook in. Yes, quality of education should be a HUGE part of any fan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thespywhozaggedme View Post
    Not a "no brainer" the Big East would be a "no brainer" but Gonzaga in the WCC is akin to Villanova playing in the Patriot League. The MWC is an upgrade. And the MWC with Gonzaga will be on ESPN, you have nothing to worry about there.
    Villanova would be among the lowest rated academic schools in the Patriot Lg. And Nova is a darn good school. Facts elude you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    We could not disagree more. Part of what attracted me to GU in the first place as a fan is it's strong academics. For alumni, the value of their degree is directly affected by the perceived current quality of the academics at their alma mater. If a GU degree was a common stock, a move to the MWC would immediately drop the value of the stock. OTOH, a trip to the F4 and a Top 10 rank are plusses. So the brass at GU are involved in weighing and balancing all these and statements like yours are ay outside the pale.
    Extremely well stated.
    "My golf is woeful, but I will never surrender."--Bing Crosby

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    We could not disagree more. Part of what attracted me to GU in the first place as a fan is it's strong academics. For alumni, the value of their degree is directly affected by the perceived current quality of the academics at their alma mater. If a GU degree was a common stock, a move to the MWC would immediately drop the value of the stock. OTOH, a trip to the F4 and a Top 10 rank are plusses. So the brass at GU are involved in weighing and balancing all these and statements like yours are ay outside the pale.
    Cool. What attracted me to GU back in '98 was their scrappy, chip on the shoulder, "us against the world" mentality. Never gave one thought to the academics. All undergrad programs teach the same thing, you're just paying for name, reputation and prestige. My school, Furman is now something like $65k year, that's a flipping joke, but you're paying for the name and connections, they didn't teach me something mystical from a Sherpa on the top of the Himalayas, they taught me the same things that would be taught at any other school. I don't know what this means though: are ay outside the pale

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    Vanderbilt is in the SEC - a conference riddled with shaky academic institutions. Does anyone think any less of Vanderbilt's academics or standing because of this? NO (And I'm an alumn). This a dumb topic - move on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SWZag View Post
    Possibly because more to life than basketball and that most student athletes don't go on to make money in a given sport? Gonzaga has a long list of former student athletes that have become respectable in other walks of life, other than the sport they partook in. Yes, quality of education should be a HUGE part of any fan.
    Who's arguing to the contrary? But we're on a message board of a top 10 mens basketball team, not the debate team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thespywhozaggedme View Post
    Who's arguing to the contrary? But we're on a message board of a top 10 mens COLLEGE basketball team, not the debate team.
    Fixed it for you, as you seem to be missing the point

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    Villanova would be among the lowest rated academic schools in the Patriot Lg. And Nova is a darn good school. Facts elude you.
    I couldn't care less. If I were a Nova fan I would care that my conference mates in the patriot League were keeping me down.

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    In this instance, way outside the pale means that you clearly aren't grasping the gravitas of the plain fact that academics do matter, and are being considered.
    "My golf is woeful, but I will never surrender."--Bing Crosby

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kong-Kool-Aid View Post
    Fixed it for you, as you seem to be missing the point
    I didn't need it to be fixed, if you didn't know that Gonzaga was a college program and not a professional team then you're too daft to even use a keyboard to type your thoughts. Can you show me your posts on the Gonzaga debate team forum?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzagit View Post
    Vanderbilt is in the SEC - a conference riddled with shaky academic institutions. Does anyone think any less of Vanderbilt's academics or standing because of this? NO (And I'm an alumn). This a dumb topic - move on.
    Whoa. Love GU but it's no Vandy; nor is it Stanford or Northwestern. Those 3 are blue chip, well endowed private multiversities that somehow landed in those largely state school conferences decades ago and yes stand out on all counts. Apples and Empire State Bldgs.

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