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Thread: Additional Thoughts w/ Possible MWC Move...

  1. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Crazy View Post
    Right? The condescending "Mom" talk is his Helm's Deep. The last bastion of a dying curmudgeon.
    Dude?!

  2. #352

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    Quote Originally Posted by thespywhozaggedme View Post
    Our brand is despite and in spite of our conference affiliation. Most of our current conference mates play in high school gyms and are Gonzaga welfare recipients having no desire to better themselves. Again, we're #6 in the country, most likely seeded like #20. If the MWC is a discount store, the WCC is a homeless shelter.
    And some people just won't accept this. WCC without GU and BYU is what? High teens, early 20's in conference RPI ranks? MWC without GU/BYU is #9. GU/BYU added brings them possibly to #6 or #7? Yeesh. That's a rough discrepancy.

  3. #353
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    Hey, Lets close this thread as it's run it's course and there really isn't anything constructive left to say.

    Bring a thread back after the "April Vote"

  4. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kong-Kool-Aid View Post
    Hey, Lets close this thread as it's run it's course and there really isn't anything constructive left to say.

    Bring a thread back after the "April Vote"
    yeah closing a thread with 12,000 views and 350 replies because some don't like the debate.

  5. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartruff1 View Post
    Former you are on a fools errand.....they are simply straw dogging your every post to meet their needs...they are dishonest..... as Haws the Younger said...." E ff them".....
    Former1dog, Bartruff1 is correct.

    Position "A": - GU Mbb has been, if not the primary factor behind the growth of the university and it's better financial position over the last 20 Years certainly it has been a major factor. To continue moving forward requires the Mbb program to grow. The WCC is a dead end to the Mbb program, so a conference change is required if the Mbb program is to continue to move forward and grow.

    Position "B": The Mbb program certainly has been a major (maybe not primary) contributor to the growth of the university and the better financial position over the past 20 years. The growth potential for the Mbb program in the WCC is certainly, at best, limited. Some growth can be had in scheduling better OOC games but this does not address the 18 conference games which, mostly, are a drag on the Mbb RPI. The problems are that a change in conferences could have some negative impacts on not only the Mbb program (football 1st conference, Less time in La/Bay Area, TV exposure, etc.) and could have some major negative impacts in other areas (other GU sports programs, possible overall increase in overall costs, maybe less revenue to cover the increase in costs, etc.).

    The point is both positions want the Mbb program to continue to move forward and grow the brand. Difference is what you are willing to give up to get it. Position "A" is damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead. We don't care about how it impacts any part of the unversity except the Mbb program. Position "B" says, hold up a little bit, let's see how it impacts the university as a whole. In the end, both points of view may lead to the same result, it is just the path they take to get there. On the other hand, maybe the impact on the other aspects of the university is too great for this particular move, and we wait for a better offer.

    You never will get those who support Position "A" to support Position "B" because those outlying factors that matter to you simply not matter to them, rightfully or wrongfully. You can yell from the highest rooftops at the top of your lungs and it makes no difference to them. Just as you can't understand why anybody would make a decision based solely on what is best for the Mbb program while excluding all of the other factors, they can't understand why you want to stand in the way of continued growth of the Mbb program.

    I too have had several posters misquote me trying to devalue my point of view in the eyes of the board. Then they get into berating and belittling your opinion because it does not match that of the mothership. You simply cannot feed this junior high behavior. of bullying, berating and belittling. Ignore the background noise.

    The truth is both sides want continued growth for the Mbb program. The only difference is one side only cares about the Mbb program and the other cares about how the decision will impact the university as a whole. The end result may be the same in both cases.

    Don't feed the fire. Quit watering each other's legs. Neither side will convince the other of the overall merits of their position. Count on the fact that GU has a bunch of really smart, experienced, people in the decision-making positions and trust that they will make a decision which is in the best interests of the university.

    No matter the decision, we will all still be zag fans and will support the Mbb program.

    ZagDad

  6. #356
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    Clicking on this thread, I feel like I've stepped into the twilight zone.

    A long time ago, GU decided to become a major player on the cbb scene. They built the best facilities they could afford, hired the most talented staff they could find, started flying charter, etc. These are business decisions. They successfully, and remarkably, created a national basketball power out of nothing, and now have an incredible regional following, and a strong national one.

    Most of the fan base they INTENTIONALLY CREATED consists of, by definition, non-alums. It is us non-alums watching that drives the ESPN contract. So saying that as an alum, your emotional investment carries more water than the bandwagoners doesn't really hold up, imo. Cross country, golf, band, and tiddly winks played by GU doesn't matter to rabid basketball fans who are outsiders, and that is the vast, vast majority of Zag basketball followers.

    Those who want to stay in the WCC strike me as tilting at windmills, to borrow a phrase from Don Quixote. I watch all the scrimmages against the low major opponents, but if someone tells me they get excited about these games, well, I'm not buying any building lots in the Everglades.

  7. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by maynard g krebs View Post
    Clicking on this thread, I feel like I've stepped into the twilight zone.

    A long time ago, GU decided to become a major player on the cbb scene. They built the best facilities they could afford, hired the most talented staff they could find, started flying charter, etc. These are business decisions. They successfully, and remarkably, created a national basketball power out of nothing, and now have an incredible regional following, and a strong national one.

    Most of the fan base they INTENTIONALLY CREATED consists of, by definition, non-alums. It is us non-alums watching that drives the ESPN contract. So saying that as an alum, your emotional investment carries more water than the bandwagoners doesn't really hold up, imo. Cross country, golf, band, and tiddly winks played by GU doesn't matter to rabid basketball fans who are outsiders, and that is the vast, vast majority of Zag basketball followers.

    Those who want to stay in the WCC strike me as tilting at windmills, to borrow a phrase from Don Quixote. I watch all the scrimmages against the low major opponents, but if someone tells me they get excited about these games, well, I'm not buying any building lots in the Everglades.
    ah, but here is where you are in error.

    Why do you say "we" want to stay in the WCC? Where have "we" ever made that statement.

    The "We" do not want to necessarily stay in the WCC, we simply want any conference change decision made based on how it will impact the university as a whole and not just on how it impacts the Mbb program. Which most of us agree, that is exactly what the AD, Board of Regents, Board of Trustees and Mark Few will do.

    Simple enough,

    ZagDad

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagceo View Post
    yeah closing a thread with 12,000 views and 350 replies because some don't like the debate.
    There is no debate, it's name calling and petty responses like that.

  9. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagDad84 View Post
    ah, but here is where you are in error.

    Why do you say "we" want to stay in the WCC? Where have "we" ever made that statement.

    The "We" do not want to necessarily stay in the WCC, we simply want any conference change decision made based on how it will impact the university as a whole and not just on how it impacts the Mbb program. Which most of us agree, that is exactly what the AD, Board of Regents, Board of Trustees and Mark Few will do.

    Simple enough,

    ZagDad
    I'm perfectly happy leaving the WCC for a conference that's going to be a step up and think about basketball first.

  10. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagDad84 View Post
    ah, but here is where you are in error.

    Why do you say "we" want to stay in the WCC? Where have "we" ever made that statement.

    The "We" do not want to necessarily stay in the WCC, we simply want any conference change decision made based on how it will impact the university as a whole and not just on how it impacts the Mbb program. Which most of us agree, that is exactly what the AD, Board of Regents, Board of Trustees and Mark Few will do.

    Simple enough,

    ZagDad
    A number of posters have said they prefer staying in the WCC. I was referring only to the posters who have made that statement, not a generalized "we".

    I don't see how moving to the MWC would have a negative effect on anything outside of the athletic dept, and basketball is the flagship and revenue source for that dept. I'd appreciate any concrete insight as to what these considerations might be. Seems to me it would be an upgrade for the program, which seems to have done nothing but good things for the university as a whole.

  11. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by maynard g krebs View Post
    A number of posters have said they prefer staying in the WCC. I was referring only to the posters who have made that statement, not a generalized "we".

    I don't see how moving to the MWC would have a negative effect on anything outside of the athletic dept, and basketball is the flagship and revenue source for that dept. I'd appreciate any concrete insight as to what these considerations might be. Seems to me it would be an upgrade for the program, which seems to have done nothing but good things for the university as a whole.
    Due respect, but I think most pro WCC folks are only Pro WCC in context of this debate.

    As to my reasoning, I've spelled that out in several posts that I think are based on pretty solid and logical grounds. I won't repeat them in this post.

    As to the value of fans versus stakeholders. The best fan of the program I'm aware of is Woo Hoo, a non alum. He's awesome and because of social media I've gotten to know him and his family. Salt of the earth, solid dude.

    But Woo Hoo isn't a stakeholder. I know he cares about Gonzaga, but it won't affect him like it would an alum if a bad decision is made that has consequences for the school.


    ESPN is a big deal. So are all the fans that come with it. There is no denying that.

    Let me ask you though, what percentage of the costs of building the MAC were covered by TV money? The soccer stadium? The tennis center? The new Hemminson center? Is the new engineering building on campus being built with ESPN money?

    What percentage of Gonzaga's $250 million endowment was collected from non alumni basketball fans?

  12. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by former1dog View Post
    Due respect, but I think most pro WCC folks are only Pro WCC in context of this debate.

    As to my reasoning, I've spelled that out in several posts that I think are based on pretty solid and logical grounds. I won't repeat them in this post.

    As to the value of fans versus stakeholders. The best fan of the program I'm aware of is Woo Hoo, a non alum. He's awesome and because of social media I've gotten to know him and his family. Salt of the earth, solid dude.

    But Woo Hoo isn't a stakeholder. I know he cares about Gonzaga, but it won't affect him like it would an alum if a bad decision is made that has consequences for the school.


    ESPN is a big deal. So are all the fans that come with it. There is no denying that.

    Let me ask you though, what percentage of the costs of building the MAC were covered by TV money? The soccer stadium? The tennis center? The new Hemminson center? Is the new engineering building on campus being built with ESPN money?

    What percentage of Gonzaga's $250 million endowment was collected from non alumni basketball fans?
    Wasn't the Volkar Center named after and funded by non alums?

  13. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by thespywhozaggedme View Post
    Wasn't the Volkar Center named after and funded by non alums?
    You are absolutely correct that the primary donor, Mr. Volkar, is not an alumnist of the school. The bulk of the remaining donors for that facility are alumni.

    As I'm sure you'll recall from your Philosophy 101 class at Fordham, its a logical fallacy to postulate that a single exception invalidates an argument. And so it would be in this case to postulate that a single (and very valuable) exception invalidates the point that I'm making.

    When you start getting weekly emails, monthly letters and quarterly calls from Gonzaga asking you (I mean you individually spy) for money, you may have a point. Until then, you'll find that the answer to all the questions I posed to Maynard is straight forward. Its the people who are connected to Gonzaga that are funding all of those things because they studied there and they love it. They want it to continue to be a great school because they have kids and grand kids that they would love to attend school there and not because of the basketball team. Because Ken Anderson and Randy Bennett and Bud Barnes were wonderful teachers that cared about their students. That Fr. Tony officiated at their wedding. That they have lifelong friends who know the difference between Cataldo and the COG. That it was all wonderful and oh by the way, its cool that the basketball team is good too. Do I mind sending money to Gonzaga beyond what every fan spends on going to the game or that cable bill so I can get all the games or traveling the Vegas every other year. Not a damn bit!

  14. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by former1dog View Post
    You are absolutely correct that the primary donor, Mr. Volkar, is not an alumnist of the school. The bulk of the remaining donors for that facility are alumni.

    As I'm sure you'll recall from your Philosophy 101 class at Fordham, its a logical fallacy to postulate that a single exception invalidates an argument. And so it would be in this case to postulate that a single (and very valuable) exception invalidates the point that I'm making.

    When you start getting weekly emails, monthly letters and quarterly calls from Gonzaga asking you (I mean you individually spy) for money, you may have a point. Until then, you'll find that the answer to all the questions I posed to Maynard is straight forward. Its the people who are connected to Gonzaga that are funding all of those things because they studied there and they love it. They want it to continue to be a great school because they have kids and grand kids that they would love to attend school there and not because of the basketball team. Because Ken Anderson and Randy Bennett and Bud Barnes were wonderful teachers that cared about their students. That Fr. Tony officiated at their wedding. That they have lifelong friends who know the difference between Cataldo and the COG. That it was all wonderful and oh by the way, its cool that the basketball team is good too. Do I mind sending money to Gonzaga beyond what every fan spends on going to the game or that cable bill so I can get all the games or traveling the Vegas every other year. Not a damn bit!
    Furman

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    Quote Originally Posted by thespywhozaggedme View Post
    Furman
    Sorry about that. In any case, I hope you feel about Furman as many of us feel about Gonzaga. Its a joyful anchor in my life.

  16. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by maynard g krebs View Post
    A number of posters have said they prefer staying in the WCC. I was referring only to the posters who have made that statement, not a generalized "we".

    I don't see how moving to the MWC would have a negative effect on anything outside of the athletic dept, and basketball is the flagship and revenue source for that dept. I'd appreciate any concrete insight as to what these considerations might be. Seems to me it would be an upgrade for the program, which seems to have done nothing but good things for the university as a whole.
    Fair Enough.

    Explain to me how it can ever be "concrete" moving from a basketball centric (specifically Mbb centric) conference to a definitely football 1st conference. You can guarantee that any direction the MWC takes, it will be based on what is best for football not basketball. This will mean a reduction in power at the MWC table no matter how you slice it. Is it important, maybe, maybe not, but it will definitely be a change from today where Mbb is the power center of the conference and GU is the King. If you think that GU can't force the WCC members to change their perspectives, you really won't be able to change the MWC because you won't have a seat at the football table.

    Assuming all of the GU sports programs move to the MWC, there will be a significant increase in overall costs. If the WCC has really altered its formula for NCAA tourney money distribution, will moving to the MWC result in more income, less income, enough more income to offset the increase in costs? I have no idea, but if the move to the MWC results in a significant net increase costs for the athletic department, is this increase in costs offset by the benefits to the Mbb program?

    What is the impact on national TV exposure if we make the move; maybe more, maybe less, maybe little change. Counting on negotiating a new TV deal immediately upon the conference change is foolhardy in my opinion. Any reduction in national tv exposure, IMO, is not a good thing.

    What, if any, impact will be seen by reducing the number of the Gu Mbb team vists to the LA and Bay Area affect our recruiting of this hot bed of 4- & 5-star recruits?

    It is impossible for anybody on this board be able to put concrete numbers to any of these issues and several others. In any case, some of the numbers and impact will be purely speculative by anybody.

    The issue is that some of us, with the information we know today, think a move to the MWC may have result in some negative consequences. Whether there are any negative consequences to the Mbb, or the negative consequences are limited to the other aspects of GU as a whole or there are no negative consequences at all, we (meaning this board in its entirety) simply does not know. Obviously, if there are no negative consequences at all, most of us would have no reservations about changing conferences.

    As this board has said numerous times, "In Roth (and Few and Board of Trustees, and Board of Regents, etc.) we trust.

    Question, if the move to the MWC results in a net increase (perhaps significant)in costs to the athletic department, where does the money come to make up this increase in costs? That is one reason that this can become a bigger issue than just an athletic department issue.

    ZagDad

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    Quote Originally Posted by former1dog View Post
    Sorry about that. In any case, I hope you feel about Furman as many of us feel about Gonzaga. Its a joyful anchor in my life.
    No problem. School pride is a good thing, no doubt.

  18. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by former1dog View Post
    Due respect, but I think most pro WCC folks are only Pro WCC in context of this debate.

    As to my reasoning, I've spelled that out in several posts that I think are based on pretty solid and logical grounds. I won't repeat them in this post.

    As to the value of fans versus stakeholders. The best fan of the program I'm aware of is Woo Hoo, a non alum. He's awesome and because of social media I've gotten to know him and his family. Salt of the earth, solid dude.

    But Woo Hoo isn't a stakeholder. I know he cares about Gonzaga, but it won't affect him like it would an alum if a bad decision is made that has consequences for the school.


    ESPN is a big deal. So are all the fans that come with it. There is no denying that.

    Let me ask you though, what percentage of the costs of building the MAC were covered by TV money? The soccer stadium? The tennis center? The new Hemminson center? Is the new engineering building on campus being built with ESPN money?

    What percentage of Gonzaga's $250 million endowment was collected from non alumni basketball fans?
    Let me ask you...What are the chances any of these improvements in buildings and increased admissions happen if Gonzaga administration decided NOT TO PAY ESPN to air games?

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