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Thread: Zags up to #7 at kenpom, one of only 3 teams to be in the top 20 in defense & offense

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    Default Zags up to #7 at kenpom, one of only 3 teams to be in the top 20 in defense & offense

    Gonzaga (#9 on offense, #19 on defense), Michigan State and Purdue are the only teams to be in the top 20 in offensive AND defensive efficiency at kenpom.com. As we all know, being in the top 20 in both categories generally makes you a final 4 contender and is something you almost must have to reach the title game most years.

    St. Mary's is now at #17 at kenpom.com. Their offense is now at #4, but their defense fell to #111. The vast discrepancy between SMC's offensive and defensive prowess was on full display tonight. By shutting down SMC's offense, the Gaels were forced to defend, which is not their specialty.

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    Great post.

    Amazing the discrepancy between RPI and Kenpom.

    One wonders how much the committee will rely on now fully outdated RPI
    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
    Mark Twain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DixieZag View Post
    Great post.

    Amazing the discrepancy between RPI and Kenpom.

    One wonders how much the committee will rely on now fully outdated RPI
    Exactly

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    I mentioned in the post game thread that this is why the WCC needs to junk the RPI tiebreaker for seeding its tournament if 2 or more teams finish with the same league record (the RPI tiebreaker is the last tiebreaker, and if SMC and GU win out, it will likely give SMC the top seed). The ONLY reason why SMC was at #22 in the RPI before tonight's game is because GU scheduled 6 teams (Washington, Texas, Creighton, Villanova, Ohio State and Florida), who are better than any team SMC has faced all season besides GU. No way does SMC go 6-0 against that group when they couldn't even beat WSU and UGA on a neutral court. Also, SMC scheduled a bunch of guarantee games against low top 100 teams. They played them all at home, and they beat them all. Even their best non-league win (NMSU) was in Moraga. Gonzaga, in an effort to get away from its relentless non-league schedule, and to generate greater program revenue, scheduled three 300+ RPI teams. It's killing their RPI, and yes, it's probably best to avoid SWAC-type schools in the future. That being said, I don't believe that we should be handing out a #1 tourney seed to the team whose schedulers did a better job (and spent more money) scheduling their guarantee games and who avoided tough opponents in tough arenas. Moreover, NO ONE gets in the NCAA tourney based on where they are ranked in the RPI. Plenty of teams with RPI's in the 20's have been left out of the dance over the years. It's more of a measurement of how you did against the RPI top 25, how you did against the RPI top 50, and so on. The WCC shouldn't be using a team's RPI number as a RANKING of how good a team is.

    The RPI tiebreaker needs to be junked in favor of Pomeroy or some other metric. Gonzaga is at #7 at kenpom.com, SMC #17. If you consider that GU's final four league games are tougher than SMC's, the Pomeroy ranking makes sense. The two teams are not separated by that much.

    Who gets the #1 or #2 seed matters because BYU most years gets the #3 (and if they don't, SMC gets it). I realize Randy Bennett has this thing where his team beats BYU as if they were a high school team, and that GU has had greater struggles against the Cougars since they entered the league, but I would rather face USD in the WCC semis than a team who brings more fans to Vegas, BY FAR, than any team besides GU. You don't hear Zags fans as much when they are facing BYU in a WCC tourney game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CDC84 View Post
    I mentioned in the post game thread that this is why the WCC needs to junk the RPI tiebreaker for seeding its tournament if 2 or more teams finish with the same league record (the RPI tiebreaker is the last tiebreaker, and if SMC and GU win out, it will likely give SMC the top seed). The ONLY reason why SMC was at #22 in the RPI before tonight's game is because GU scheduled 6 teams (Washington, Texas, Creighton, Villanova, Ohio State and Florida), who are better than any team SMC has faced all season besides GU. No way does SMC go 6-0 against that group when they couldn't even beat WSU and UGA on a neutral court. Also, SMC scheduled a bunch of guarantee games against low top 100 teams. They played them all at home, and they beat them all. Even their best non-league win (NMSU) was in Moraga. Gonzaga, in an effort to get away from its relentless non-league schedule, and to generate greater program revenue, scheduled three 300+ RPI teams. It's killing their RPI, and yes, it's probably best to avoid SWAC-type schools in the future. That being said, I don't believe that we should be handing out a #1 tourney seed to the team whose schedulers did a better job (and spent more money) scheduling their guarantee games and who avoided tough opponents in tough arenas. Moreover, NO ONE gets in the NCAA tourney based on where they are ranked in the RPI. Plenty of teams with RPI's in the 20's have been left out of the dance over the years. It's more of a measurement of how you did against the RPI top 25, how you did against the RPI top 50, and so on. The WCC shouldn't be using a team's RPI number as a RANKING of how good a team is.

    The RPI tiebreaker needs to be junked in favor of Pomeroy or some other metric. Gonzaga is at #7 at kenpom.com, SMC #17. If you consider that GU's final four league games are tougher than SMC's, the Pomeroy ranking makes sense. The two teams are not separated by that much.

    Who gets the #1 or #2 seed matters because BYU most years gets the #3 (and if they don't, SMC gets it). I realize Randy Bennett has this thing where his team beats BYU as if they were a high school team, and that GU has had greater struggles against the Cougars since they entered the league, but I would rather face USD in the WCC semis than a team who brings more fans to Vegas, BY FAR, than any team besides GU. You don't hear Zags fans as much when they are facing BYU in a WCC tourney game.
    don't care...if you can't beat byu and smc back to back on a neutral court you ain't going anywhere in march anyways...think of it as better prep for the ncaa's

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    Zags showed last night that they can be relentless on D. Great game plan helped of course, but if we play D like that, we match up against any team in the nation this year.
    GO ZAGS!!!

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    i completely agree about the wcc tiebreaker. rpi is clearly an easily manipulated metric as smc has proven time and time again. i'll take this one step further, not only does smc NOT deserve the #1 seed over us, but if they don't win the WCC they should NOT be dancing this year. i realize a lot of readers here can't open their mouth without heaping praise on smc (sometimes i login here thinking i've stumbled across GIAG North), but they have ONE DECENT WIN ON THEIR RESUME....thats it...nothing else...a 3 point win against us in a game we led for 35 minutes. outside of that they don't have a single win they can point to that could justify their inclusion in the field. sorry, reeling off scores of wins against the dregs of college basketball should not get it done. i might be in the minority here but i'm just not ready to say they are a tournament team based on 5 minutes of gutsy play against a much better team. please now feel free to clutch your celtic knots close to your chest and rage away on me for not recognizing greatness when i see it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DixieZag View Post
    Great post.

    Amazing the discrepancy between RPI and Kenpom.

    One wonders how much the committee will rely on now fully outdated RPI
    A lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 23dpg View Post
    A lot.
    Not for rhode island though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekrub View Post
    Not for rhode island though.
    The RPI is used to help the big schools. Going back over a decade, the top 2 RPI()teams left out of the tourney have all been from non power 5 conferences. Without fail, every year! One of the cbs guys tracks this and posts an update after the brackets are out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WallaWallaZag View Post
    don't care...if you can't beat byu and smc back to back on a neutral court you ain't going anywhere in march anyways...think of it as better prep for the ncaa's
    I care because it is horribly wrong for the whole league. I would feel the same way if Santa Clara and LMU finished the season 17-1 with their only losses coming to each other. The NCAA committee never gives a team a bid based on their RPI ranking. The WCC shouldn't be using it as a ranking as well.

    I also don't agree if GU doesn't beat both BYU and SMC in Vegas that they aren't going anywhere in March. Those teams are not Pepperdine and LMU. One is a single digit NCAA tournament team that is rated in the top 20 at kenpom.com, and the other team stands a good chance of making the NIT with a good seed (and will have many fans in the stands in Vegas, drowning out GU's crowd advantage). Also, the BYU game will be even tougher if GU beats the Cougars in Provo. It's a proven fact in the sports world: it's hard to beat a good team 3x in a row in the same reason. BYU may not be the greatest team, but they are good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 23dpg View Post
    The RPI is used to help the big schools. Going back over a decade, the top 2 RPI()teams left out of the tourney have all been from non power 5 conferences. Without fail, every year! One of the cbs guys tracks this and posts an update after the brackets are out.
    For many years it used to beef up the Mountain West Conference. They'd start league play with 8 teams in the RPI top 50, and end up with 3-5 of them in the NCAA's. Never mind that they all lost the first weekend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekrub View Post
    Not for rhode island though.

    Wow, Rhode Island is #5 in the RPI, and didn’t get slotted in the top 16 either??? Yeah, they really can’t make the big conference bias anymore obvious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CDC84 View Post
    For many years it used to beef up the Mountain West Conference. They'd start league play with 8 teams in the RPI top 50, and end up with 3-5 of them in the NCAA's. Never mind that they all lost the first weekend.
    Yeah - the RPI can be gamed. The MVC did it for a while as well.
    History has its eyes on you.

    Sage of the GU Message Board

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    Here is another fun stat using KenPom....

    In the last 10 years of KP’s ranking a top 10 team has only been ranked a 5 seed or worse 6 times. So basically 6 teams out of 100 have been completely jobbed by the NCAA committee. Wichita St last year is the most recent example last year as a 10 seed and #8 overall in kenpom. Could the Zags be the next up? Looking very likely....


    Also Xavier is in the running for the worst statistical team to get a #1 seed. Only 3 #1 seeds out of the last 64 (16 years) have been out of the top 10 and Xavier is at 13 overall.

    Takeaway: complete and utter ineptitude by the committee so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CDC84 View Post
    I care because it is horribly wrong for the whole league. I would feel the same way if Santa Clara and LMU finished the season 17-1 with their only losses coming to each other. The NCAA committee never gives a team a bid based on their RPI ranking. The WCC shouldn't be using it as a ranking as well.

    I also don't agree if GU doesn't beat both BYU and SMC in Vegas that they aren't going anywhere in March. Those teams are not Pepperdine and LMU. One is a single digit NCAA tournament team that is rated in the top 20 at kenpom.com, and the other team stands a good chance of making the NIT with a good seed (and will have many fans in the stands in Vegas, drowning out GU's crowd advantage). Also, the BYU game will be even tougher if GU beats the Cougars in Provo. It's a proven fact in the sports world: it's hard to beat a good team 3x in a row in the same reason. BYU may not be the greatest team, but they are good.
    "It's a proven fact in the sports world: it's hard to beat a good team 3x in a row in the same reason."

    Complete fallacy. Look it up. Sometimes proven facts are really not. Vegas is laughing at you.

    Every time Brent Musburger hears an announcer say that he makes money.

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