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Thread: First points for Louise Forsyth

  1. #1
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    Default First points for Louise Forsyth

    Love the way she (LF) passes and sees the court, she has passed up some shots in earlier games, just needs some confidence, after making the first three the 2nd came easy.
    With so many good players on this team its hard to get into the flow of the game, I don't understand subbing out C-Smith and not letting her get into a flow when its proved she is likely one of the best scorers on the team. I think when playing the top tier teams you will see she's one who can create her own shot.
    When is Jessie going to start, just like the Spokane paper said she's changes the game like no other, against good teams I think you need your best players starting, getting off to a slow start could cost games at tourney time.
    If your going to play ten plus players maybe it helps to have best players mixed in with each group, not so sure this would be a good strategic move against top teams.
    Are the Zags that good or are conf. teams that bad, can't believe more teams aren't making games interesting.

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    Pony:

    You have opened not one but several "cans of worms", that many people (when they used to post) have discussed in the past. I will give you my thoughts and opinions and see if we can coax some of the old-timers out of their posting cave for their opinions.

    Love the way she (LF) passes and sees the court, she has passed up some shots in earlier games, just needs some confidence, after making the first three the 2nd came easy.
    I agree last night LF looked much more fluid in the game and both of her 3 pt shots were very smooth and in rhythm. She looked more comfortable last night than in previous appearances. This is what happens when a freshman gets more time on the court. The question all year, since LF has apparently been healthy, why she is not getting more minutes, particularly in the blow-out games. We have seen the improvement of the Wirth Twins and JT when given court time, why has LF been held out? Good question.

    With so many good players on this team its hard to get into the flow of the game, I don't understand subbing out C-Smith and not letting her get into a flow when its proved she is likely one of the best scorers on the team. I think when playing the top tier teams you will see she's one who can create her own shot.
    While it was not the case last night, Chandler typically has the most minutes on court of all of the players. Chandler was not shooting particularly well last night but her presence on the defense side of the ball was, as it has been all year, excellent. While many people look at points scored as a defining statistic, other statistics like steals, blocks, rebounds, etc. provide a better overall picture. Chandler is the glue which holds the entire team together on both sides of the ball. She has been my MVP of the team so far this year. I think CLF freely trades out LS, ES, CS with JL, JT, KC and maybe soon LF. You want people to be able to inject in any combination and not see much of a drop off. I think that CLF has done a good job creating a team which has a very good mix of 10 players who are essentially interchangeable.

    I personally have never figured out CLFs subbing strategy. Many times it seems just as a player gets hot or in the groove, she is taken out. I don't always agree with CLF on subbing, but she has been pretty successful this year, at least so far.

    When is Jessie going to start, just like the Spokane paper said she's changes the game like no other, against good teams I think you need your best players starting, getting off to a slow start could cost games at tourney time.
    Don't hold your breath. CLF has in the past and so far this year, appears to be very supportive of her upperclassman and her starting line-up rarely changes no matter who is playing better. Typically, only injuries to a starting player affect CLF and her starting five. Rightfully or not, this is her way.

    If your going to play ten plus players maybe it helps to have best players mixed in with each group, not so sure this would be a good strategic move against top teams.
    Historically speaking you are correct. As tournament time approaches, coaches around the country tend to shorten their benches and run 7-8 player rotations. With this team, I don't see that happening. I think you will continue to see the Wirths interchange freely with JB and ZR and I think you will see JL, JT and KC freely substituted for LS, ES and CS and maybe, if she gets more time LF will get in the rotation. We know that JB and ZR can both be point producing machines but they do need to rest and our only alternatives today are the Wirth twins (and occasionally JT). At the guards, LS has been off offensively this year, but Cs, JL and ES and KC have all lead the guards in scoring this year so whoever has the "hot" hand or who provides the most disruptive defense will get the minutes.

    Are the Zags that good or are conf. teams that bad, can't believe more teams aren't making games interesting.
    Yes and occasionally yes. If GU plays a compete game (see the 40 pt. second quarter) when they score from everywhere and play solid, harassing defense, they can be very good. We are still weak, defensively in the post area. We simply do not have a player on the team that can contend with a 6'4"+, 200+ lbs opposing center. Remember Vionise Pierre-Louis of Oklahoma last year. She just dominated JB/ZR and we could do nothing about it. Things are no better this year, if we have to face someone like Pierre-Louis. Thankfully, the teams in the WCC have either bigger players or very talented players but not players with both qualities. However, watch out for BYU. They have a 6'7" freshman that has just begun starting and while not "gifted" like Pierre-Louis, she is a load in the middle. Next week will be interesting. The other issue is our inconsistency in shooting. Yesterday we were good overall and good from 3pt but we were terrible from the free throw line. If we get our shooting percentages to be consistently good across the board, we should beat every WCC team.

    Thanks for posting Pony,

    ZagDad

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    Congrats to Lou...

    Looking at the schedule... hope to see LF get more time on the court. Problem being... the schedule is getting tougher which means probably closer games and less chance to give the bench more time on the court,

    Speaking of the bench... I’m with you ZD in I like the breaks they’re giving the starters and the way the coaches are filling the bench in that seems to show very little let down.

    As far as the bigs dealing with the size on the other teams... defense that covers the passing lanes and stops their movement. We are taking pride in our defense...
    It will be a good learning experience and challenge that the team will need to compete in the dance.
    The size of our players goes with the our type of play... and skill will trump.

    Looking at the team at the first of the season, I thought there could be times where getting the players court time could be a challenge. The coaches have a problem that many coach would love to have... to many great players. I looked at the minutes in the Portland game and the starters were running between 19 and 25 minutes. The bench was between 7 and 22 minutes. The nice thing this week is with traveling on Saturday, the starters got plenty of rest which hopefully helps.
    Next week will be different with SD and BYU... will see the strength of the starters... but hopefully CLF continues to give them the breaks and the bench the experience they need.

    As far the starters... like the consistency. We are seeing bench players getting more minutes the better they play... which you are seeing in JL. With her coming in... the other team is seeing a different gear and game. I like that. You will see JL starting at the 2 next year with she and LS swapping during the game. What a challenge for the other team when your three starting guards can play point and fill in at the 2 and 3. I would use it to change things up.

    Anyway... we are so blessed to have a team of great kids that play their hearts out and do a great job of representing their school and community.

    Go Zags!!

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    As far as the bigs dealing with the size on the other teams... defense that covers the passing lanes and stops their movement. We are taking pride in our defense...
    It will be a good learning experience and challenge that the team will need to compete in the dance.
    The size of our players goes with the our type of play... and skill will trump.
    I hope you are right, but after spending a weekend watching Texas, Connecticut, Oklahoma and Missouri Wbb play, they frequently played high-low, with the "high" position setting up above the 3pt line at the top of the key and then the center simply moved the opposition's center out almost to the free throw line leaving lots of space to simply toss the ball over the top leading to lay-ups. Can't stop the "over the top" passing lane. Just like Vionise Pierre-Louis of OU did to us last year. Maybe a year more of experience will help JB and ZR is certainly better but let's hope we get the chance to find out.

    ZagDad

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    ZagDad... I know what you are saying and do have concerns with ZR at 6’1” dealing with a 6’4” + with weight and skill. Not a lot of that size and skill in the WCC but in the dance, for sure. We would probably need a zone to box and control the throw in...
    This year may be a problem... with the youth. The Wirths have the frames that with another year on the weights, will give them the strength needed to hold their ground. Think of Kayla Standish FR to SR.

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    When Kayla was around, we had the fun and gun offense so if we could not stop the opposition we just out scored them and we do not have that kind of offense, YET.

    Under CLF we have always been a inside out type of team, which is kind of hard to argue with given CLF's record. I think that we have the players with the skills that could make a good effort at the fun and gun offense. We don't have to look outside the box in the WCC, but when you simply don't match up with the opposition, running them into the ground is an option and I think we have the players and stamina to give it a go.

    Running a half court offense against a bigger, stronger, highly skilled team does not seem like a recipe for success.

    If we can win the next three games, all on the road, we probably will just about have locked up the WCC title and maybe we can experiment a little bit with the fun and gun.

    Go Zags

    ZagDad

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    Just for giggles, I went back and look at the individual points for the players during the fun and gun years.

    While there was a year or two of overlap, we had Courtney Vandersloot, Heather Bowman, Kayla Standish and Katelan Redmond among the many stars on those teams. Today the league and individual teams celebrate when a player hits the 1,000 points for a career milestone. During our fun and gun years, look at the career point totals for the above four players.

    Heather Bowman = 2165 points
    Courtney Vandersloot = 2073
    Kayla Standish = 1583
    Katelan Redmon = 1412 (in 3 years)

    I did not realize that Bowman had outscored CV and in fact, Bowman lead the team in scoring for 3 straight years over CV. The only year Bowman did not lead the team in scoring was her freshman year when she finished 2nd behind Stephanie Hawk (a frequent color commentator on GU Wbb games).

    CV finished 2nd on the team in scoring her first three (3) years all to Bowman. CV lead the team in scoring her senior year over Standish and Redmon. To give you some perspective, if Jill Barta continues at her current rate of scoring for the remaining games this year, her best scoring year, (assuming 33 games total like last year) she would score 600 points this year. A very good year by any standards.

    The Lady Zags, during the 2010-2011 had three (3) players (CV, Standish and Redmon) all score over 600 points that year and CV had over 700.

    While we have some very good players, I don't know if we have three (3) offensive players who could put up those kind of offensive numbers.

    Just reminiscing about good times in the past.

    ZagDad

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    I didn't go back and replay the Oklahoma game, but what I remember is we had guards shoot the first few shots of the game and miss, they came down and drained threes on us, within three or four minutes we were behind the eight ball.

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    Think about CVs assists numbers...

    The players you mentioned were great team players and with CV feeding the ball quick and when the players were in position, there wasn’t a lot of half court play. I also didn’t remember a lot of 3 point shooting. A lot of elbow on in... without a lot of passing around. Think about the 40 point quarter... when open and your shot...shoot!

    Think about the high % shots the forwards are making. Pony mentioned the guards missing shots... it seems that their best % shot is the elbow in. CVs best shot was inside. 1000 assists 2000 points

    Go Zags!!

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    Yeah, I had those numbers as well, but did not want to mix up the thread.

    CV had an average assists per game of 5.6, 7.5, 9.4 and 10.2 for each of her four seasons at GU. She ended up with a total of 1118 assists for an average assists per game number of 8.22 for her four years. What is even more impressive is that over her four year career she played in 136 games, started 128 games and had a total number of turnovers of 487 for a career assist to turnover ratio of 2.3.

    When you take in the fact that GU is one of the top assist teams in the WCC, look at the total numbers. Our highest assist person (JL) only has 75 assists per game while LS is second with 53 assists. The "team" has a total of 285 assists for an average of 14.25 assists per game. Unfortunately the "team" also has 279 turnovers for an assist to turnover ratio of 1.02 which is not very good at all. The bigs (JB and ZR) really drag down that number as they have almost half of the turnovers between them and very few assists. Of our four primary guards, ES is not very good at an assist/turnover ratio of 1.35, LS at 1.5, CS at 1.72 and Jessie as the best at 2.20. As upperclassmen, LS and ES should be taking care of the ball much better than they are, CS is probably about average and Jessie is most likely near the top of the league. Good for her. Probably another reason why she should be starting rather than LS or ES.

    In addition to not scoring anywhere near where we did during the fun and gun days, we are not sharing the ball as well and we certainly are turning the ball over more.

    So we do have some offensive areas we can work on.

    ZagDad

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    "When is Jessie going to start, just like the Spokane paper said she's changes the game like no other, against good teams I think you need your best players starting, getting off to a slow start could cost games at tourney time." [pony]

    "Don't hold your breath. CLF has in the past and so far this year, appears to be very supportive of her upperclassman and her starting line-up rarely changes no matter who is playing better. Typically, only injuries to a starting player affect CLF and her starting five. Rightfully or not, this is her way. " [zagdad84}

    From an outside observer... my starting line-up would be, JL, CS, ES, ZR & JB. JT would be #6 (for the more physical teams..I'd share the 3 spot equally with JT & ES. LS would sub with the other two guards, JL & CS. Always would have either JB or ZR on the court, subbing in the Wirth Twins... until the game was out of reach. Just my opinion. My starters are the BEST defensive players and the offensive posts. IMO

  12. #12
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    Kemo,

    My first thought was "way to go way out on a limb" as this is exactly what I would do, but then I decided to check the numbers. Take a look at the stats for conference play:

    JL - 22.3 Min/Gm, 6.8 Pts/Gm, 48.9% Shooting, 38.9% 3pt shooting, 75.0% Free Throw, 2.7 Rbds/Gm, 43 assists, 18 TO, 1 Blk, 18 Steals
    LS - 23.6 Min/Gm, 4,9 Pts/Gm, 44.9% Shooting, 20.0% 3pt shooting, 80.0% Free Throw, 2.8 Rbds/Gm, 31 assists, 19 TO, 1 Blk, 13 Steals

    I think most of us agree that JL is the much better defensive person and she certainly is a better 3-point shooter, but I was amazed that the overall shooting percentage, points/game, turnovers and rebounds are essentially the same between the ladies.

    I believe that LS drives the lane (in the half-court set) better than JL.

    I do agree that JL is the better overall player (slightly) but the difference (at least in conference schedule) is not near as far as I initially thought.

    Thanks Kemo,

    ZagDad

  13. #13

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    Was very pumped to see Louise or Lou, as she is referred to on the radio, get her first buckets. And then she plays zip against San Francisco the next night out! She comes in for 6 plus minutes and gets "her groove on" so to speak. Then barely an after thought the next game.

    ZagDad when we have a discussion about LS and JL would you share some insight into the eye test comparison. Your numbers were very very interesting, but I watch LS's entry passes to ZR and JB and just wonder what the heck. She'll throw a bullet from 6 feet away or bounce the ball off the post's foot or not make a pass at all. I'm a fan and not a naturally gifted basketball x's and o's guy. I can't tell you what good basketball is but I can tell you when I see it. Do you see any thing that separates the two other than numbers?

  14. #14

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    Coaching Styles Coach Kelly Graves motto play your best players thats what is best for the team. He made a power house out of nothing at Gonzaga and Oregon. The Ducks were only ones that started 3 Freshman in 2017 NCAA tournament last year Mallory McGuire, Sabrina Ionesco, Ruthy Hebard. Lexi Bando stared 28 games as a freshman, Maite Cazorla started all 35 games as a freshman as Ducks for Graves.

    Barta Recruited under Graves sat as a Red Shirt. First time I saw her play in the kennel it was clear to me that she was the best player on the court IMO, yet she could not crack the starting lineup until other players were injured and out for the year if I remember correctly. Rice showed great natural talent but could not crack lineup until this year due to graduation now she our #2 scorer. Coach Lisa Fortier sticks with her starters unless they go down with injuries.

    Townsend who has been healthy all year and who one can clearly see her talent when she plays is getting very limited minutes so far even in blowouts. Forsyth who I was wondering out loud earlier in the year why she was not red shirted since injured anyways. She was not redshirted and gets on court a minute in blowouts.

    Next year Kylee Griffien and Melody Kempton come in as Freshman what will coach LF do with them?

    I like coach Graves Philosophy get the most talented players on the court and get them minutes, so if a player goes down to injury the next player can step up. Its hard to do that cold turkey. Also thought LF comparing Jenn Wirth to JB was as bad as a comparison as you can make. Jill Barta its a reward to me every time I get to see her play, she can back up her fire!

    CLF team is doing great undefeated in WCC so far. Just would like to see her have under classman more prepared to step up when needed. The time to win and go deep is now with Jill Barta the next two years. But the better the supporting cast, the deeper your team will go.

    Jill Barta is a winner 104-0 in high school. Jill Barta put up 22 shots in the last game. Jill will carry this team as far as she can but as Chandler Smith, Zykera Rice are showing this year your better with help. Emma Stach is hitting some 3s. Wouldn't be great to have additional weapons Townsend and Forsyth contributing 3s or clutch 2s also. You can never have two many weapons in your arsenal.

    Lady Zags you have two tough Road games next week, show them why your the best in the WCC.

    Do have to say CLF is putting the nail in the coffin on other teams so far this year, hammering them when their down not letting them stand back up.
    Last edited by ZAGS ATTACK BASKET; 01-30-2018 at 09:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyZagFan View Post
    Was very pumped to see Louise or Lou, as she is referred to on the radio, get her first buckets. And then she plays zip against San Francisco the next night out! She comes in for 6 plus minutes and gets "her groove on" so to speak. Then barely an after thought the next game.

    ZagDad when we have a discussion about LS and JL would you share some insight into the eye test comparison. Your numbers were very very interesting, but I watch LS's entry passes to ZR and JB and just wonder what the heck. She'll throw a bullet from 6 feet away or bounce the ball off the post's foot or not make a pass at all. I'm a fan and not a naturally gifted basketball x's and o's guy. I can't tell you what good basketball is but I can tell you when I see it. Do you see any thing that separates the two other than numbers?
    IMO: JL has something you cannot 'teach' SPEED AND QUICKNESS. LS has unbelievable confidence and 'fearlessness'! [LS is a true 'bulldog'] They both compliment each other...you need them at their best! I don't think either of them 'care' who starts...they are team players...they both WANT TO WIN! I personally do not know either of them, only opinions from watching GU games. My background having played h.s. ball and as a freshman @ Pacific in 1961-62. I shot better than 50 % from what is now 3 pt land. Only a bucket back then! I love watching GU teams...they usually bring excellent and spirited basketball play....as a fan, I enjoy this! Also, your community supports both programs...which also is pleasing to view!!!!

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    Isn’t it wonderful to have enough talent that you can’t get them all in to contribute to a win.

    I see it where the JRs and SRs have put their time in on the bench as FR and SOs. When it comes to who is getting the most minutes, it’s who is playing the best. Every player will have their game yet will have an off night. It’s great to have someone to fill in.

    What I have seen with this team is... while starting out slow, they figure things out and play hard.
    While not always consistent, I haven’t seen the team as a whole have a bad game since league play. Credit the coaching staff... I always put that on the coaches.

    As for our starters... they are smart and understand the game. That’s what juniors and seniors give you.

    One last thing... I have been watching the games on WTV and I can’t say enough about ZR... from her frosh year to now, what a great job. Congrats Z ... your hard work is paying off for yourself and your team.

    Go Zags!!

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    Comparing JL and LS, If you take out the games when LS was hurt, JL has not got equal min. in most games, her ave. jumped way up when she had to carry the load. I really like the look when JL is at point, this may push LS to the 2 spot where I think she can be more effective. Coaching involves putting players in a position to take advantage of their strengths. JB playing post is not her strength, but lack of true post players has forced her there, commend her for making the best of less than an ideal situation. Wish we had Emma or the big gal who left, but that's water under the bridge now.

  18. #18
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    LadyZagFan:

    Thanks for question. Sorry for not responding sooner, but believe it or not, I do have deadlines on occasion. Per your request, here is my opinion on JL & LS.

    ZagDad when we have a discussion about LS and JL would you share some insight into the eye test comparison. Your numbers were very very interesting, but I watch LS's entry passes to ZR and JB and just wonder what the heck. She'll throw a bullet from 6 feet away or bounce the ball off the post's foot or not make a pass at all. I'm a fan and not a naturally gifted basketball x's and o's guy. I can't tell you what good basketball is but I can tell you when I see it. Do you see any thing that separates the two other than numbers?
    As far as the eye test goes, many of us watch different aspects of the game and as such many of us may have different opinions based on what we see. I think that the posters above have done a very good job of summarizing the strengths and weaknesses of both JL and LS, but I think you need to look at this in context.

    We know that CLF is very unlikely (like no chance) to change her starting line-up unless forced to do so (ie injury). Thus any discussion of who should be starting is essentially a non-starter (pun intended) because it is not going to happen. Secondly, there has been times that JL and LS are both on the floor at the same time so because of our plethora of guards, it is not necessarily an either or situation. This is a totally different situation than when CLF attempted to put both Georgia Stirton & LS on the court at the same time when it was an utter failure. While Georgia and LS did not function well together at all, currently all of our guards seem willing to play any position from #1 to #3 and do so mostly seamlessly. Finally, CLF has publicly stated that JL brings a change of pace when she comes into the game which makes it more difficult for the opposition to adjust on the fly to the two different styles of play of JL and LS and she likes having that option to go to. Onward to the analysis.

    LS is the vocal leader on the floor. There is nobody more demonstrative than LS on the court. Some lead by example, LS leads by vocally cheer-leading, taking charges, high 5s and so on. Somebody mentioned the entire team patting each other's backsides for support. LS is slapping high 5s, pumping fists, etc. She is without a doubt the vocal leader on the floor. LS is at her best when playing around the key. She has a good dribble drive, stop and pop jumper. In the half-court offense, LS takes the ball to the hoop better than JL. LS switches in the key better than JL and is more likely too take a charge in the key. LS is of larger height and stature than JL which leads her to have a more physical level of play and better suits her playing in and around the key. On the not so good side, LS tends to play too fast for her that occasionally puts her in bad situations and/or leads to poor passes. LS tends to unnecessarily pick up her dribble, leaving her with few or no options. LS is not fleet of foot, so when she faces up an opponent on defense, she can easily be beat off the dribble. When she plays off the opponent by 2-3' it gives her time to move her feet. While her 3-pt shooting this year has been abysmal her overall shooting has been pretty good.

    JL is the energizer bunny. As the WCC/USF announcers said during the USF game last week, it is one thing to watch JL on video, but when you see her in person, she is so much faster. JL is typically the fastest player on the court. She has the ability to simply drive by the opposition when bringing the ball up the court and if you don't stop her progression, she will take it to the hoop. Defensively, because of her foot speed, she is much better than LS when playing man-to-man defense. While LS tends to get her steals from double teams in the key, JL gets the majority of her steals from pure hand speed on perimeter. I think that JL sees the court a little better and knows (anticipates) where her teammates are going to be which results in more accurate passing. Of course JL has a slightly better overall shooting percentage and a much better 3pt shooting percentage. I think that there is less standing around when JL is at the point than when LS is at the point.

    Take a close look at the USF highlights (on Youtube or at Zag Wbb twitter). It demonstrates much of what the people posting have said. LS does a dribble drive with a stop and pop shot. LS slides over in the key and takes a charge from a USF big with the appropriate fist pump. LS feeds JB for an assist and one and LS gives a fist pump and high five to Barta. JL gets the ball from LS at the top of the key and throws a bullet pass to a Wirth (LW??) for a lay-up on the backdoor cut. Note how many times in the highlights that both LS and JL are on the court at the same time.

    My favorite single highlight of the USF game is right near the end when Chandler hits Zee in stride for a lay-up. Watch it closely, and you will see that CS throws the pass where ZR is going to be (not where she is) and Zee is not really open at any time. Zee was looking for the ball and the USF defender was running trying to catch up and CS simply threw the ball right over her shoulder. Cool stuff. This is the kind of pass that CS and JL frequently make and LS not so much.

    In summary, the numbers I presented above simply reflect that LS and JL are doing a similar job but are getting it done in different ways. There is no right way or better way, just different. Coach CLF is lucky to have a team (maybe because of her leadership) that works so well together that it does not matter who is at point, whether it be LS, JL, CS or even KC. Just my $0.02 and remember that you get what you pay for.

    Its Gameday, Let's go beat up on some Toreros.

    Go Zags,

    ZagDad

  19. #19

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    Thanks Zagdad for the response and everyone else who chimed in. I guess when you step back and look at the season so far it's hard to argue with success. Congrats on the win tonight ladies.

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