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Thread: Serious question about zags and wcc and moving elsewhere and march madness.

  1. #76
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    This article appeared in my local paper yesterday. If you think the WCC is bad, read this, GU was a founding member.
    As the bus rolls past mileage signs for places like Malad City, Arimo and Woodruff, the long frames of Northern Arizona's basketball players splay across the seats. Heads rest on makeshift pillows of jackets and backpacks, legs stretch across aisles, feet rise above headrests.
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    Birddog

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    All mimsy were the borogoves,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Birddog View Post
    This article appeared in my local paper yesterday. If you think the WCC is bad, read this, GU was a founding member.

    https://hosted.ap.org/standardspeake...allest-schools
    Thanks for posting this article BD. There’s a better solution out there, but it’s not going to come from the NCAA, which is swimming in money. Perhaps a larger payout for one bid conferences on the first game.

    Perhaps an NCAA sponsoring company that donates plane tickets to smaller conferences.

    Then again, maybe some ADs and school administrators didn’t think it through during the last round of realignment/expansion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Birddog View Post
    This article appeared in my local paper yesterday. If you think the WCC is bad, read this, GU was a founding member.

    https://hosted.ap.org/standardspeake...allest-schools
    Granted mine was for football, so far less bus travel, but I always enjoyed those trips. Particularly Missoula...play UM and generally be back in time to "hangout" that evening
    I would never be a sellout............unless of course I got a boat load of money to do it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagceo View Post
    WCC full of religious schools might show some forgiveness and offer a coach a second chance...say Malibu...LINK
    Just think of the sort of debauchery Pitino could commit in Malibu. I hope they make a reality TV show out of it...
    GU Class of '10, MUSC Class of '14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagsker View Post
    Granted mine was for football, so far less bus travel, but I always enjoyed those trips. Particularly Missoula...play UM and generally be back in time to "hangout" that evening
    I remember our rifle team road trips to Reno. Took off Friday after lunch, competition on Saturday, back to Spokane on Sunday. The more enterprising students actually did homework during the daylight hours. We stayed in the barracks of a nearby Guard unit. Thankfully, that was just once a year. Local competitions were held in Cheney, Moscow, and Pullman.

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    I often wonder whether a move out of the WCC would really improve recruiting for Gonzaga.

    I think the appeal of an extremely likely tournament bid is actually a very nice selling point, especially for some of the grad transfers.

    While many HS players no doubt cite the conference as a weakness...I am just very curious as to whether that has actually been a legit tipping point for many great players. Seems very possible that even if the Pac-12 came calling; Seattle kids would still prefer UW, players from the southwest and Cali still have other strong options closer to home. If it was the Big East, it's still hard to see that many players trekking out to Spokane that wouldn't have already come this way otherwise.

    GU has a lot of special things to offer, and I think that the Zags end up bringing in kids who are attracted to those specific things. I just don't know if a change of conference would really do much to affect that pattern. I could be way off base, and I think there are a lot of good reasons for GU to consider moving along from the WCC. But, given their recruiting pattern, or lack thereof (international + kids from 10 different states on this year's roster), I personally don't feel convinced that a move up in conference affiliation wouldn't result in a net neutral recruiting impact.

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    Hmmm ...... WCC or PAC12/Big East -- this has been pointed out by multiple recruits as the primary reason they chose the other program.

    The Zags have developed the international pipeline to help with the lack of influx of top US talent --and it has worked to offset the challenge so far.

    Change of conference would mean more conference bids -- which would equate to more opportunities to get to the dance-- if all you need to do is finish in the top half of your conference to make the dance (Pac12/BigE) -- the Zags would not be missing any dance trips in the near future.
    Last edited by Zagdawg; 01-15-2018 at 12:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagdawg View Post
    Hmmm ...... WCC or PAC12/Big East -- this has been pointed out by multiple recruits as the primary reason they chose the other program.

    The Zags have developed the international pipeline to help with the influx of top US talent --and it has worked to offset the challenge so far.

    Change of conference would mean more conference bids -- which would equate to more opportunities to get to the dance-- if all you need to do is finish in the top half of your conference to make the dance (Pac12/BigE) -- the Zags would not be missing any dance trips in the near future.
    I guess my point was that if GU were to move, it's not like we would be switching places with Arizona or Washington or Villanova or Marquette. Pac-12 vs WCC just changes to Pac-12 vs Pac-12 or Big East vs Big East. So I don't know if that would truly have changed the calculus enough for program-changing recruits. It's entirely possible that it would have...I just don't know for sure.

    Without being too nauseatingly positive about GU, I also think that the program tends to attract players who value collective achievement in addition to individual achievement, which slightly reduces the impact of the conference affiliation. In addition, I honestly think the Zags get plenty of media exposure as it is. They have their brand and it's a positive one. That might change in ways both positive and negative with a move up in conference.

    Finally, I respectfully disagree that the Zags wouldn't be at risk of missing any trips to the dance. There have been at least two teams in the past decade or so that have had a bid at risk entering the conference tourney, and all it takes is an early departure or two, an injury or two, and/or a recruiting whiff or two to put any team in a precarious position. The WCC isn't perfect and I have found the first slate of games this year awfully hard to fully enjoy, but IMO there have been clearly years where it has helped ensure a bid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Birddog View Post
    This article appeared in my local paper yesterday. If you think the WCC is bad, read this, GU was a founding member.

    https://hosted.ap.org/standardspeake...allest-schools
    I can remember traveling with UNC-Charlotte's Women's Basketball Team...we traveled by 15pax vans to games while the men flew...always wondered what happened to Title IX...we were given a bus to drive to WKU, USA or ODU...those were a 12-14 hour rides depending on traffic and weather...I can imagine that in the olden days of WCAC, GU did a lot of bus trips...needless to say, I don't like bus trips...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogozags View Post
    I can remember traveling with UNC-Charlotte's Women's Basketball Team...we traveled by 15pax vans to games while the men flew...always wondered what happened to Title IX...we were given a bus to drive to WKU, USA or ODU...those were a 12-14 hour rides depending on traffic and weather...I can imagine that in the olden days of WCAC, GU did a lot of bus trips...needless to say, I don't like bus trips...
    After Title IX wouldn't the funding for the improved travel be provided by donors?

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    Quote Originally Posted by strikenowhere View Post
    After Title IX wouldn't the funding for the improved travel be provided by donors?
    If it did, we didn't see any of that money...we stopped and ate at Wendy's or McDonalds...

    Here is another tidbit...ODU, WKU, USA all had 15 full rides...we had 7 full rides for 15 women...

    Things have changed since the mid-80's but it was at times pretty tough...guess it made me stronger or at least my arms having to load and unload the vans...

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    With the new conference our average 3-4 star recruits become average 4-5 star recruits and this keeps us from finishing below the middle of the new conference.

    The new conference with 5-6 dance bids give the Zags much more residual dance money and much more television money leading to improved facilities/recruiting budgets/salaries for staff etc.

    I think the horse has been beat many times over-- it is all up to what the Zag program want to do in the long term for the program with the direction college athletics is moving.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zagfan24 View Post
    I often wonder whether a move out of the WCC would really improve recruiting for Gonzaga.

    I think the appeal of an extremely likely tournament bid is actually a very nice selling point, especially for some of the grad transfers.

    While many HS players no doubt cite the conference as a weakness...I am just very curious as to whether that has actually been a legit tipping point for many great players. Seems very possible that even if the Pac-12 came calling; Seattle kids would still prefer UW, players from the southwest and Cali still have other strong options closer to home. If it was the Big East, it's still hard to see that many players trekking out to Spokane that wouldn't have already come this way otherwise.

    GU has a lot of special things to offer, and I think that the Zags end up bringing in kids who are attracted to those specific things. I just don't know if a change of conference would really do much to affect that pattern. I could be way off base, and I think there are a lot of good reasons for GU to consider moving along from the WCC. But, given their recruiting pattern, or lack thereof (international + kids from 10 different states on this year's roster), I personally don't feel convinced that a move up in conference affiliation wouldn't result in a net neutral recruiting impact.
    I don't think moving to a better conference would necessarily improve our recruiting...what I fear is the following:

    At some point GU is going to miss the dance, perceptually that could trigger a "looks like their run is over" train of thought in potential recruits...less talented recruits come in because why play in the WCC when a trip to the dance isn't as "garaunteed" then it once was and instead go play in conf X and play better competition with just as likely result to go the dance.

    GU in a down year in the WCC is less likely to make the dance as opposed to a down year in the BE, where RPI is more likely to be better
    I would never be a sellout............unless of course I got a boat load of money to do it

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    Quote Originally Posted by zagfan24 View Post
    I often wonder whether a move out of the WCC would really improve recruiting for Gonzaga.

    I think the appeal of an extremely likely tournament bid is actually a very nice selling point, especially for some of the grad transfers.

    While many HS players no doubt cite the conference as a weakness...I am just very curious as to whether that has actually been a legit tipping point for many great players. Seems very possible that even if the Pac-12 came calling; Seattle kids would still prefer UW, players from the southwest and Cali still have other strong options closer to home. If it was the Big East, it's still hard to see that many players trekking out to Spokane that wouldn't have already come this way otherwise.

    GU has a lot of special things to offer, and I think that the Zags end up bringing in kids who are attracted to those specific things. I just don't know if a change of conference would really do much to affect that pattern. I could be way off base, and I think there are a lot of good reasons for GU to consider moving along from the WCC. But, given their recruiting pattern, or lack thereof (international + kids from 10 different states on this year's roster), I personally don't feel convinced that a move up in conference affiliation wouldn't result in a net neutral recruiting impact.
    As per usual, some great thoughts clearly stated, going against conventional wisdom.

    We're foolish to not consider the fact that even if someone placed us into the Pac-12 for basketball, there are some kids that are going to walk onto the UCLA campus in January wearing shorts and flip flops, hanging out at certain sororities, and won't even remember Mark Few's name on the Text saying "No, thanks, coach."

    And it's not like we can say they made a "bad" decision.

    There are certain hard realities baked-in to our situation, and we shouldn't day dream them away.
    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
    Mark Twain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagsker View Post
    I don't think moving to a better conference would necessarily improve our recruiting...what I fear is the following:

    At some point GU is going to miss the dance, perceptually that could trigger a "looks like their run is over" train of thought in potential recruits...less talented recruits come in because why play in the WCC when a trip to the dance isn't as "garaunteed" then it once was and instead go play in conf X and play better competition with just as likely result to go the dance.

    GU in a down year in the WCC is less likely to make the dance as opposed to a down year in the BE, where RPI is more likely to be better
    Or when Few steps down (and Lloyd isn't waiting in the wings anymore due to moving on)

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    Quote Originally Posted by strikenowhere View Post
    Or when Few steps down (and Lloyd isn't waiting in the wings anymore due to moving on)
    Yup

    This gravy train is not going to last forever...GU needs to take advantage ASAP and position itself in a more "down year friendly conference" to sustain them in between lean years...otherwise GU is going to become San Francisco
    I would never be a sellout............unless of course I got a boat load of money to do it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagnificent View Post
    Just think of the sort of debauchery Pitino could commit in Malibu. I hope they make a reality TV show out of it...
    "I think we're all Bozos on this bus."

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    Imagine if Tillie grew 10 inches and added 60 pounds of muscles by Thursday without losing any of his athletic ability. No way would Saint Mary have a chance. In fact, we would be number one in the country. Why doesn't GU make that happen?

    Or why not make the sky turn from blue to orange because it is a nicer color. Why doesn't GU make that happen?

    Or why doesn't GU in join a better league than the WCC?

    Of course, all three are impossible in Today's current NCAA. No adding a football program would make the PAC-12 want to add GU. The Pac-12 as a league of big State Schools will not add GU. Heck BYU with much larger budget and an established football program and the school has been rebuffed countless times by the PAC-12.

    No other conference geographically fits the needs of Zags basketball. MW is more of a lateral move (WCC has had as many two
    bids as the WCC since the last prefigurement of leagues that brought BYU into the WCC)
    GU has been active in trying to get into the Big East, but geography has been the biggest deterrent and they don't have the votes to join.

    Yes, Gonzaga was outgrown the WCC, but what to do? No conference fits them. Also, this idea of the WCC just riding the coattails of WCC misses the reality/ The shadow of GU actually makes winning for the other programs besides Saint Mary or BYU a lot harder. Like Jeff Eisenberg documented the struggles, the three make it hard to recruit, win and get to the NCAA for the rest of the league. https://sports.yahoo.com/news/west-c...205029165.html

    If a coach has little to no shot at getting to the NCAA and the fact that everyone knows it, makes it tough to recruit and get players to buy in for 3-4 years in a building process. Looking at a good Dons team that if they were in the Big West, could be in the mix for an NCAA bid and with a little luck could pull an upset or two in the tourney, but being in the WCC with GU (especially), the Gaels and BYU means fighting for a CIT or CBI bid (even the NIT is out of question).

    Tillie will not grow as I described, The sky will remain blue and GU will stay in the WCC for now. That is the reality of the world.
    ----
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    Quote Originally Posted by titopoet View Post
    ... MW is more of a lateral move
    It may be factually (at times), however I contend perceptually in the national stage it would not be...even in years when the WCC has been solid, perception has been it is not...and right or wrong, perception is reality
    I would never be a sellout............unless of course I got a boat load of money to do it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagsker View Post
    It may be factually (at times), however I contend perceptually in the national stage it would not be...even in years when the WCC has been solid, perception has been it is not...and right or wrong, perception is reality
    The latest bracketology, WCC has two bids and MW only one. Last year, the same. In fact, I think that in the next few years that trend will continue. To move and upend the WCC should be based on reality and not the whims of fans. MW is really not an option unless it comes with all three, but BYU left the MW and it really has not been the same since. GU, BYU and Saint Mary form a trifiecta that MW may have match a couple of years ago, but right now... nope.
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    titopoet with the voice of reason ! Tillie growing 10 inches may be the likeliest possibilty of the two !

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    Quote Originally Posted by titopoet View Post
    The latest bracketology, WCC has two bids and MW only one. Last year, the same. In fact, I think that in the next few years that trend will continue. To move and upend the WCC should be based on reality and not the whims of fans. MW is really not an option unless it comes with all three, but BYU left the MW and it really has not been the same since. GU, BYU and Saint Mary form a trifiecta that MW may have match a couple of years ago, but right now... nope.
    Conference rankings this year have the WCC lower than MWC, and that's with us in the league. It's not just about the number of tourney teams, though. Take Gu out of the equation, and I bet the MWC is overall stronger than the wcc 9 times out of ten. Which means it would be easier to improve our tournament resume and readiness each year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dhozagfan08 View Post
    Conference rankings this year have the WCC lower than MWC, and that's with us in the league. It's not just about the number of tourney teams, though. Take Gu out of the equation, and I bet the MWC is overall stronger than the wcc 9 times out of ten. Which means it would be easier to improve our tournament resume and readiness each year.
    Another thread has WCC higher than the MWC in 2 different places.

    What IS a realistic option is to add 2 more schools and go to a north/south (or whatever you want to call it) to add more OCC games, 5 home and home in division and 3 away/3 home in the other division.

    Also would help if the next commish stresses using the tournament money to improving BBall programs and facilities, and not just by paying the same coaches more money. It really seems that facilities are one of the weak points. I don't know why Pepp doesn't draw more talent. One the other hand, San Diago has the slim gym and still often struggles.
    Hoping you have a sense of humor too!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dhozagfan08 View Post
    Conference rankings this year have the WCC lower than MWC, and that's with us in the league. It's not just about the number of tourney teams, though. Take Gu out of the equation, and I bet the MWC is overall stronger than the wcc 9 times out of ten. Which means it would be easier to improve our tournament resume and readiness each year.
    MW is in decline and yes GU would a shot in the arm for the conference, but GU gets nothing from it. If the Zags started to dominate it like it does the WCC (certainly not out of the question) then the bottom teams will start looking like the WCC (GU hurts other league team's recruiting.) So the two outcomes are GU joins the rest of MW and start to miss the NCAA tournament in down years or it turns the MW into a version of the WCC. Neither answer the question of outgrowing the WCC as it is also has outgrown a conference like the MW.

    By the way, what is the upcoming MW game that the country will be paying attention too? I don't think it will happen until the MW championship game. Meanwhile, the Saint Mary vs GU will be featured on national TV and be written about on all the major sports media. It will probably get more coverage than the whole of the MW will get for the conference season. Same for the other encounter with the Gaels and the two encounters with BYU. The MW will be again a one-bid league (though it probably deserves more). If GU had a chance to join the big east or a power 5 then it would make sense, but anything else makes zero sense. By the way, the top team in the MW (Nevada) could not handle the fifth best team in the WCC (Dons) on a neutral court what makes you think they would help GU get ready for the NCAAs?
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    Quote Originally Posted by titopoet View Post
    MW is in decline and yes GU would a shot in the arm for the conference, but GU gets nothing from it. If the Zags started to dominate it like it does the WCC (certainly not out of the question) then the bottom teams will start looking like the WCC (GU hurts other league team's recruiting.) So the two outcomes are GU joins the rest of MW and start to miss the NCAA tournament in down years or it turns the MW into a version of the WCC. Neither answer the question of outgrowing the WCC as it is also has outgrown a conference like the MW.

    By the way, what is the upcoming MW game that the country will be paying attention too? I don't think it will happen until the MW championship game. Meanwhile, the Saint Mary vs GU will be featured on national TV and be written about on all the major sports media. It will probably get more coverage than the whole of the MW will get for the conference season. Same for the other encounter with the Gaels and the two encounters with BYU. The MW will be again a one-bid league (though it probably deserves more). If GU had a chance to join the big east or a power 5 then it would make sense, but anything else makes zero sense. By the way, the top team in the MW (Nevada) could not handle the fifth best team in the WCC (Dons) on a neutral court what makes you think they would help GU get ready for the NCAAs?
    We've discussed conference changes ad naseum. Suppose for discussion that the Zags prioritize a minimum of 4 PAC 12 games per OOC, home and home preferably and see what flies?

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