It's time for conference play to start. What do you think the Zags so far?

[MDABE80]

Agree with the need to improve on the defensive end in particular closeouts, help angle and on ball dribble drive defense

Disagree with offense as we are 8 best in nation and almost every statistical category is up save turnovers

Offense is not the problem.........if you only count points. Other items matter though..........

[MDABE80]

I'm curious. Honestly. What do you see? Have you been watching how players screen for each other? Or have you seen how they help out on defense? Explain this "close nit" group to me, especially as they are playing on the court?

800 miles away as the crow flies Reborn. He really knows little. Just a talker.
Not worth your time.

[bballbeachbum]

offense is a problem to my eyes because there is nothing to consistently go to, especially inside, to control tempo and force the D to adjust. instead looks like plenty of teams the Zags have played have dictated tempo with their D when we get the ball into the post, the opposite effect of what's desired; the hi low has seemed to get better results but I don't have the data. But neither JIII nor KT, the guys Few has used down there and gone to, have been able to prove they can deliver there as a consistent threat.
And the ball gets delivered there plenty, and on time and in their spots, plenty. That has not been the issue imo, it's once the ball is in their hands down there they aren't the scoring/passing threats to run the offense the Zags are used to. Larsen has been tried and shown better imo.

Anyway, the D isn't great but evolving to learn how to play without strong rim protection. Larsen looks good when in there but he's in sparingly, and JIII and KT do spectacular things from time to time around the rim on D but as has been discussed ad nauseum, they are not true rim protectors. Josh, Silas both stay in front of their man and fight well over screens; seems to me teams go after Zach, JIII and KT off the bounce from the perimeter which is one of the weaknesses of the switching D as other teams can look to set up the matchups they want: see North Dakota for example, not the only example.

as for effort and calling players out for that, I haven't seen what you're talking about but that seems a popular position right now for many here. Have I seen nerves, inexperience, and terrible plays but also resiliency and battling and fighting back...yes.

sorry, but the up and down play is exactly what I expected after losing so much from last year and having all these new faces have to be key contributors and, mostly, the huge changes inside leading to fundamental changes in the O and D this team hasn't seen in many years.

I think the process is fine if Larsen can play significant minutes in the big games allowing the front line to all play the positions they excel at so opposing defenses can't focus so hard on stopping Josh

[cggonzaga]

800 miles away as the crow flies Reborn. He really knows little. Just a talker.
Not worth your time.

boy if that isn’t calling the kettle black! I’ll go with somebody that actually knows something on this matter rather than somebody that kisses the players backsides in person but then comes here and rips them.

Didn’t understand your “chemistry” complaint earlier reborn. Thought you were out of bounds there since it was purely conjecture and there hasn’t been rumors or anything to back it up in the least. Not feeling well lately? Taking jazz and abe grumpy old man classes on the side? You used to be positive. You have every right to your opinions but they’re just coming across angry lately.

[Reborn]

800 miles away as the crow flies Reborn. He really knows little. Just a talker.
Not worth your time.

thanks

[MontanaCoyote]

No what I said was "I don't know" about the youth factor. 1st line, 1st para. The second reference is about careless defense. It seem that you're not seeing that we look awful even when when we win games. The last few were quite telling. If you only care about victories, you're in good shape with your statements above. I don't and here's why: the quality of play sucks now and if not improved, we'll be lucky to get into the tournament and if we do, we'll be gone in the first weekend like most pretenders. Do you not think people across the country are ignoring our play? This is not how the Zags continue their legend.

SO yes, I'm standing by what I wrote. Things need to be changed.......for the better. The easiest thing to change ( since the offensive is much harder to alter given our situation) is the defense. We need to start playing hard defense. And why not? We've got big kids, we've got superior athletes with good foot speed and lateral movement. So where are we lacking? Is it coaching? I doubt it even though it's obvious nobody's let the kids know they play D or they don't play. Alternatively, is it the players' will to get in the trenches and actually focus on D? One of the two....no other choices. I'm thinking it's both. A joint effort might help....i. e. coaches enforce and the kids comply. Either of those is ignored and we're in for a long season.

We've got 4 kids Josh, Silas, Tillie and J3 who have lots of experience. True, we' had different leaders in the past. Each kid unto himself needs to know it's on them. Coaches need to let em know that too. Of course, a non invite or a quick out isn't the worst thing to ever happen to us. I'd at least like our 20 season consecutive invites continue......\

So let face some things. Josh is Josh and that ok for most. What's chewable is the defense. To that end, I'd get Larsen (uninjured version) in the middle and get him to do what he does ie block shots, clog up the middle to stop unhindered drives and put some points up. It's worked in the past and it should work again. Right now that key is wide open to everyone.
And once again, I'm not arguing with anyone. It's just how I see it.

Last full paragraph is key, along with floor disipline....playing under control.

[Reborn]

boy if that isn’t calling the kettle black! I’ll go with somebody that actually knows something on this matter rather than somebody that kisses the players backsides in person but then comes here and rips them.

Didn’t understand your “chemistry” complaint earlier reborn. Thought you were out of bounds there since it was purely conjecture and there hasn’t been rumors or anything to back it up in the least. Not feeling well lately? Taking jazz and abe grumpy old man classes on the side? You used to be positive. You have every right to your opinions but they’re just coming across angry lately.

I have been on this forum for a long time, and believe me I have not always been positive. Mostly though, I have been positive about the teams. I am still positive, believe it or not. But mostly, I try to be honest with what I see, and I do see chemistry problems. BIG TIME. Chemistry isn't all about how players feel about others. It can be that. But it is mostly how I group of players play together on the court, and these guys really do not have fluidity. They are not fluid. When they pass the ball They often have no idea where the guy whom they are passing to is going. No idea. How can you or anyone watch this mess and see positive chemistry. Did you see last years team? That was team chemistry. And it began with Karnowski and NWG. Last year we had leaders.

I do believe the Zags will turn it around. But in the meantime I am not going to pretend that I see something that I don't. That's being FAKE. I see positives, and if you read the posts I've typed you'll see I think Norvell is playing really well, and I think Larsen is playing great. This team may be more injured than I have been aware of. If that's the excuse, then I understand that. There just aren't the players to put the starters on the bench. Few did that for one game and it was definitely the best game Tillie played, and JW3 quite well with 15 and 15. But obviously, he didn't leave them there long enough because in the very next game they go right back to their old ways. I have seen a change in JW3 and I believe we will begin to see the player we hoped to see now. I think he's getting it. On the other hand I see no change taking place in Tillie, Perkins and Melson. If that's being criticle, I accept it. I hope they will follow JW3 and begin to show leadership and class.

[MileHigh]

I'm curious. Honestly. What do you see? Have you been watching how players screen for each other? Or have you seen how they help out on defense? Explain this "close nit" group to me, especially as they are playing on the court?

It is based on spending a good bit of time over the last four years with the players (and their parents) off the court and away from the coaches. Talking with the players individually and when they are in a group you can see how close they are. To a man, each says they love their teammates and play for their teamates. Josh is a real honest kid and when he tells me this is the closest team he has played on at Gonzaga I believe him.
In terms of how their closeness manifests itself on the court, I see a bunch of kids trying to figure out their exact roles, but I don’t see a chemistry issue.

[MDABE80]

Not to worry Reborn. FAQ is just another who thinks everything is just dandy.
It isn't but when a guy chirps incessantly. Attributes things with no basis. It's like watching the CNN basketball variant.
I'm waiting for St Mary's. I hope we win the rest of the games. Consistency is the mark of a champion ...not to be forgotten but we'll see how it goes.

[MileHigh]

800 miles away as the crow flies Reborn. He really knows little. Just a talker.
Not worth your time.

Haha....yep, 800 miles away and I promise I know exponentially more about what is going on with the team than you do. Between regular convos with players, their parents, and Gonzaga coaching staff we are pretty plugged in here in the Mile High City..lol

[Reborn]

It is based on spending a good bit of time over the last four years with the players (and their parents) off the court and away from the coaches. Talking with the players individually and when they are in a group you can see how close they are. To a man, each says they love their teammates and play for their teamates. Josh is a real honest kid and when he tells me this is the closest team he has played on at Gonzaga I believe him.
In terms of how their closeness manifests itself on the court, I see a bunch of kids trying to figure out their exact roles, but I don’t see a chemistry issue.

Thanks. I appreciate your point of view, and I really don't know them personally as you do. I hope so much that you are right.

[cggonzaga]

I'm curious. Honestly. What do you see? Have you been watching how players screen for each other? Or have you seen how they help out on defense? Explain this "close nit" group to me, especially as they are playing on the court?

I see guys playing hard and for one another. I see guys being supportive. I don’t see fighting or bickering. I see a team averaging over 90ppg which doesn’t happen based off talent alone. A team shooting 51% good for top 20 in the country which doesn’t happen if they’re not getting open looks. A team averaging over 17apg good for top 40 in the country. And while the defense hasn’t been as good as last year they’re still holding teams to 41% a game which is still top 100. I think you’re overreacting to a couple poor games versus the season’s work.

[MDABE80]

Try to separate the offense from the defense cqq. Knowledgeable do. Ones good if I look at points
Scored. The other side sucks. Defense wins championships. It's the
Mainstay of basketball.

[bballbeachbum]

Haha....yep, 800 miles away and I promise I know exponentially more about what is going on with the team than you do. Between regular convos with players, their parents, and Gonzaga coaching staff we are pretty plugged in here in the Mile High City..lol

you're arguing with someone who claimed Josh wasn't even playing the point a few games ago in a game in which he played it well...the CNN basketball variant at work

thanks for sharing your insights with us

[2wiceright]

Nice post, Abe. Very well put.

+1 Spot on Abe

[cggonzaga]

Try to separate the offense from the defense cqq. Knowledgeable do. Ones good if I look at points
Scored. The other side sucks. Defense wins championships. It's the
Mainstay of basketball.

The defense doesn’t suck. The numbers back that up. I said it hasn’t been great but it certainly hasn’t been bad. “Knowledgeable” people recognize that. I certainly listen to “knowledgeable” basketball people but I’m afraid I don’t put you in that category.

[MDABE80]

How about ESPN? lolol
Points Per Game

90.2

8th


Rebounds Per Game

40.8

Tied-23rd


Assists Per Game

17.2

Tied-38th


Points Allowed<-----------

74.7

233rd

[cggonzaga]

If ppg is what you value then you’ve made your point. Again, I’ll look at shooting percentage against which I believe is a truer indicator for defense. When a team like this one runs more fast break and shoots quicker in the play clock, there will be more offensive possessions for the other team. Thus more points scored.

Really this year’s team is just worse against the 3. 2pt fg % is still solid and top 50 in the country.

[MDABE80]

Yes right. I guess we should follow the composite variables instead of the bottom line that determines a win or a loss. And there in lies one of the problems with the offense which you've detailed in the above post.....shoot quick in an uptempo, run and gun offense with lots of alley oops, 3 pt shots and so on (and plenty of Turnovers too).......kills the defense but the offense makes points.

And my view, although unshared is mostly the opposite. Like last year when we went to the Championship game. Slower , deliberate thoughtful analytical offense and the no 1 defense in the country. Mimics the kid who directs the game. This is key and what I've been thinking this season. To me the differences in how this GU team approaches/plays a game is majorly different.

[cggonzaga]

I guess we should follow the composite variables instead of the bottom line that determines a win or a loss

This makes no sense. It’s not like we’re 6-6. We’re 10-3 after playing a very solid ooc. As others have said, a free throw and a C game from 12-1 and our only loss to the number 1 team in the country. Just because we’re not winning games the way you want us to doesn’t mean this team isn’t good. There is more than one way to skin a cat. For instance, last year’s national champion shot 46%, scored 84ppg and gave up 41%, at 71ppg. UNC runs the fast break as well as anybody in the country.

[webspinnre]

Arguing with someone who believes pace and efficiency is irrelevant in evaluating defenses is a waste of time. They may not be great defensively, but they're not terrible.

[WallaWallaZag]

And my view, although unshared is mostly the opposite. Like last year when we went to the Championship game. Slower , deliberate thoughtful analytical offense and the no 1 defense in the country. Mimics the kid who directs the game. This is key and what I've been thinking this season. To me the differences in how this GU team approaches/plays a game is majorly different.

different experience/talent level...stop comparing this year's team to last year and you'll be a much happier person...compare to the year before if you really must compare

[MDABE80]

Arguing with someone who believes pace and efficiency is irrelevant in evaluating defenses is a waste of time. They may not be great defensively, but they're not terrible.

That's not the case though Web. Read again. We're not really too different on how pace and
Efficiency
Matter. They do! Who said they didn't. Not me. Read what you want
And think what you want. They matter plenty. So what's the rub?

[WallaWallaZag]

Arguing with someone who believes pace and efficiency is irrelevant in evaluating defenses is a waste of time. They may not be great defensively, but they're not terrible.

not terrible, but not good enough if your goal is to go beyond the 2nd round in march...

[gonzagafan62]

I don't think most quarrel as much about the record as the way the team has performed. Very Un-Zag like. Sloppy, lack of hustle, that sort of stuff.

Jazz! 100% correct my friend.