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Thread: Retire #24

  1. #1
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    Default Retire #24

    I love the fact that GU is discerning about whose number is retired but I think you could make a solid argument that Przemek's number 24 belongs in the rafters. I believe Gonzaga's first trip to the title game will not be our last and I also believe that we will bring the trophy home one day. Shem's part in this first trip is noteworthy and should always be remembered. But this is not why I believe his jersey should be retired ... I believe it belongs in the rafters with #44 and #12 because of the number 136. That number may stand forever! The most wins for a NCAA college basketball player.

    Gonzaga should hold true to their approach and wait a significant period of time to make this decision but I am in favor of honoring the Big guy forever.

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    I'm kind of torn on this. Although that is a great record and Shem is one of our all time greats, you have to take into consideration that 136 involved a lot of people other than Shem. He was involved with some great Zag teams. It's not quite the same as an all-time scoring or rebounding record.
    On the other hand, all records involve the team and without him we wouldn't have made the national championship game.
    “People have an uncanny ability to make me think I am smarter than I really am. Human Beings bring me back to reality.” S.T.

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    Don't mean to interrupt at all but he actually has 137, unless non division 1 games are not counted. That would take off 3, LEWIS CLARK ST his freshman year, CHAMINADE his sophomore year, and ST. THOMAS AQUINAS his junior year.

    But I'm pretty sure they just count wins and the number of games Gonzaga won and he played at least 1 min are: 32, 29, 35, 4, 37 which is 137.

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    Adam is long, long, long overdue....in addition to getting some POY awards, he led the nation in scoring, was a Spokane native, committed to GU out of HS, and elevated the stature of the program to a whole new level. He was a major figure in college basketball. Regardless of how his NBA career went, he was still a top 5 pick as well. And he was a great player from the opening tip. Probably should've started his freshman year.

    He should get retired before anyone. I don't know what the wait is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CDC84 View Post
    Adam is long, long, long overdue....in addition to getting some POY awards, he led the nation in scoring, was a Spokane native, committed to GU out of HS, and elevated the stature of the program to a whole new level. He was a major figure in college basketball. Regardless of how his NBA career went, he was still a top 5 pick as well. And he was a great player from the opening tip. Probably should've started his freshman year.

    He should get retired before anyone. I don't know what the wait is.
    He definitely should have started as a freshman.

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    I still argue that Ammo not starting as a freshman played a part in Gonzaga making such a quick exit from the NCAA tourney in 2003/04. It was one of MF's only massive mistakes as a head coach. Too much allegiance to upperclassmen and not enough attention paid to how much Adam was effecting the team. For the last month of the season, Gonzaga got off to slow start after slow start after slow start until Adam came in. Then Gonzaga got going. That worked okay against the dreadful WCC, but it was a different situation in the NCAA's. By the time Ronny collected 2 fouls and Adam got in the game, Nevada had basically said to the world "Game Over." I am 100% certain that Trent Johnson told his team to jump on Gonzaga from the opening tip to establish a big lead before Adam came in at around the 12 minute mark....that GU's team had become substandard offensively without Adam on the floor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CDC84 View Post
    Adam is long, long, long overdue....in addition to getting some POY awards, he led the nation in scoring, was a Spokane native, committed to GU out of HS, and elevated the stature of the program to a whole new level. He was a major figure in college basketball. Regardless of how his NBA career went, he was still a top 5 pick as well. And he was a great player from the opening tip. Probably should've started his freshman year.

    He should get retired before anyone. I don't know what the wait is.
    I agree with all of this!

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    Shem was a good player. But not a great player. Great has to be at least the minimum for such an accolade.
    "The best players will play. That's the way it will always be." Larry Bird

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagLawGrad View Post
    Shem was a good player. But not a great player. Great has to be at least the minimum for such an accolade.
    I wonder how much we'll miss that "good" player next year. I think people underestimate his impact on the teams success over the years. Look how long it took to right the ship last year after we lost him due to his back injury.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZagLawGrad View Post
    Shem was a good player. But not a great player. Great has to be at least the minimum for such an accolade.
    Please define great then
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoopaholic View Post
    Please define great then
    Not that I hate on Shem at all, I love him as a player he did so many amazing things for this team. That being said great does not go 1-8 with 4 TO in the biggest game ever for the school you play for and the biggest game of your career. It just doesn't, a great player makes things happen at the greatest moments of their careers.

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    Being back on the court after near career ending injury and leading us to the National Championship game makes him a great Zag player in my book-- one game does not define a player.

    Don't know that he deserves his jersey retired ahead of some of the other players that can/should be ahead of him.

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    I think Shem deserves some consideration at some point, but other players should be considered first.

    What's hard is a kid like Kelly Olynyk. He had one great year at GU. Yes, he was a universal first AA both academically and in basketball. Yes, he led Gonzaga to its very first number one ranking and number one seed. And yes he was a lottery pick. But do you retire his number based on one incredible season???

    That's a tough one......

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    There are arguably 10 players in the HOF queue ahead of Karno. A delightful young man, a very good college bb player.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    There are arguably 10 players in the HOF queue ahead of Karno. A delightful young man, a very good college bb player.
    This.

    Also you show greatness in the final 4, that's the biggest stage of this sport. In any sport especially basketball players are known for greatness based on championship level games. This was the first year players on the Zags teams got to show greatness and a few players had some great plays but no one stood out as a great player. I think if Collins didn't get into foul trouble he would have but that's neither here nor there. Karno while a very good player isn't a great player, there's no stats to support that other then saying 'well his stats don't really show it but he is!' If you replace Sabonis on this team with Karno we win the championship by 10+. And that's nothing against Karno but Sabonis was a great player, Karno has a great story and came back from tremendous adversity and he should be applauded for that. That doesn't make him a great player.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CDC84 View Post
    Adam is long, long, long overdue....in addition to getting some POY awards, he led the nation in scoring, was a Spokane native, committed to GU out of HS, and elevated the stature of the program to a whole new level. He was a major figure in college basketball. Regardless of how his NBA career went, he was still a top 5 pick as well. And he was a great player from the opening tip. Probably should've started his freshman year.

    He should get retired before anyone. I don't know what the wait is.
    I completely agree
    “People have an uncanny ability to make me think I am smarter than I really am. Human Beings bring me back to reality.” S.T.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by team6 View Post
    This.

    Also you show greatness in the final 4, that's the biggest stage of this sport. In any sport especially basketball players are known for greatness based on championship level games. This was the first year players on the Zags teams got to show greatness and a few players had some great plays but no one stood out as a great player. I think if Collins didn't get into foul trouble he would have but that's neither here nor there. Karno while a very good player isn't a great player, there's no stats to support that other then saying 'well his stats don't really show it but he is!' If you replace Sabonis on this team with Karno we win the championship by 10+. And that's nothing against Karno but Sabonis was a great player, Karno has a great story and came back from tremendous adversity and he should be applauded for that. That doesn't make him a great player.
    Superb, if risky, analysis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    There are arguably 10 players in the HOF queue ahead of Karno. A delightful young man, a very good college bb player.
    Agree in principle.

    Adam, Dickau, Santangelo, Turiaf, Calvary, Frahm next imo. All subjective; I value the founders and multiyear contributors/upperclassmen more than say Olynyk/Sabonis. Love Karno but not 3rd on the list after Stockton/Burgess.

  19. #19
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    Your story has too many holes-- if player X was "great" why didn't they lead us to a final 4 when they were here -- sorry doesn't hold water.

    Players may be different and both be great players who bring different skill sets to the table-- some just make the entire team better --- newer viewers/fans look at the stat sheet and say that because player x did not score more than player y -- they are not as good.

    It's the complete package a player brings -- without Karnowski we made it to a sweet 16 with our other two bigs/NBA guys last year -- with him we went to a national championship game (and an elite 8 game the year prior).

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    Aren't Melson and or Perkins likely to break the 137 game record ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by maynard g krebs View Post
    Agree in principle.

    Adam, Dickau, Santangelo, Turiaf, Calvary, Frahm next imo. All subjective; I value the founders and multiyear contributors/upperclassmen more than say Olynyk/Sabonis. Love Karno but not 3rd on the list after Stockton/Burgess.
    Pangos, Blake, Rob, Matt B?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    Pangos, Blake, Rob, Matt B?
    I'd call Karno the equal of Rob. Sure you could make just as good an argument for any of yours above as those I listed. That's why I guess it needs to be limited to the indisputable greats.

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    I think that the new Hall of Fame in the practice facility will afford ample opportunity to recognize former greats, without the necessity to retire their jersey numbers.

    Rather than retire a number, make it a tradition that a new player has to "earn" the right to wear that number. In an informal way, it's like that with the #88 with the Dallas Cowboys: Drew Pearson, Michael Irvin, and Dez Bryant are 88.

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    Quote Originally Posted by team6 View Post
    Not that I hate on Shem at all, I love him as a player he did so many amazing things for this team. That being said great does not go 1-8 with 4 TO in the biggest game ever for the school you play for and the biggest game of your career. It just doesn't, a great player makes things happen at the greatest moments of their careers.
    So you are defining greatness in single
    Game. Interesting
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartruff1 View Post
    Aren't Melson and or Perkins likely to break the 137 game record ?
    Probably not. Karno literally played full seasons for the three winningest teams in program history. He also picked up five bonus wins during his redshirt year. To get 137 in just four years, a player would need to average 35 wins/season. I don't think any player could ever equal Karnowski's record.

    Melson won't, because he missed a few games before they burned his redshirt. Perk missed most of the 35-win Elite Eight season due to injury.
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