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Thread: who's going to redshirt

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by GonzagasaurusFlex View Post
    Agree w you btzag and Matthews starting at the "3" allows best opportunity for our 5 most talented guards (NWG, Matthews, Perkins, Melson, Norvell) to all play meaningful minutes. On the other hand, I'd hate for this team to make it all the way to a sweet 16 or Elite Eight matchup vs, say, Duke and a classic 3 with size and athleticism without an athletic 3 of our own to match up against him defensively...at least for 10-15 important minutes.

    Coaches conundrum: maximize playing time for the plethora of talented guards or develop Rui or Tillie at their natural 3 position to get them ready for the big boy teams of college hoops?
    Even though it's taken from an unfavourable angle for him, this picture https://www.instagram.com/p/BJ82cE1gyEw/?hl=en makes it look like Mathews is a little shorter than advertised and likely the shortest of the proposed starting backcourt. Like you said guy's like Jayson Tatum from Duke or Josh Jackson from Kansas could be nightmare matchups come tourney time. However helpside defence should be better than it's ever been with all the length, shot blocking ability and depth that exists in the front court.
    Last edited by zagfan94; 09-08-2016 at 01:20 PM. Reason: typo

  2. #52
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    Pretty sure Cal used 3 guard lineups most of the time and maybe even 4 guards at times. Not sure which position Mathews was officially playing, but I'd guess he has some experience playing against bigger opponents at times.

  3. #53
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    Some thoughts on usage:

    5 Position
    If PK is healthy he starts, but initially will play limited time, so Colins will get plenty of 5 time early on. If PK has touble Ryan and Colins rotate the time, with one of the 4's stepping in as needed.
    4 Position
    Williams starts with Colins stepping in when he goes out. In general Collins rotates between the 4 and 5 dependiong on who rests and the foul situation. Possible people to play this are Tille, Rui, Larsen and may see limited time filling in. I see larsen Redshirting so it will be Tillie and Rui gathering in the spare minutes. I actually expect Rui to play more 4 than Tille as he is physical. If PK doesn't play and collind holds down the center Ryan will back him and Williams and Rui will see the 4 time

    3 position
    JM starts, but will be pushed very hard by Rui, Tillie and Novel. If Rui ends up a lot of time at the 4, Tillie will be the 3 backup and will be the go to guy on taller teams

    2 Position
    Josh starts and will rotate to the 1 when Nigel rests. When Josh is not at the 2 Melson will play as will Novel, the better shooter and defense will get the most time as the season progresses.

    1 position
    NWG starts and Josh covers when he is out. A very limited use of guys.

    Early in the year these guys will not look like they will in march and will have growing pains, but once they get it together they will be a force. They will lose a few games early that they would not lose later on (BYU and SMC come to mind).
    "The trouble with quotes on the Internet is you can never know if they are genuine"---Abraham Lincoln.

  4. #54
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    There are very, very few college basketball teams, and very, very few high major teams, who possess 6-6 small forwards. It is very common for very good teams to have all three perimeters standing at 6-3 or shorter.

    What matters is how good of a player each of the players is....on both ends of the floor.

    To me, a shooting guard and a small forward are essentially the same thing at this level. The reason why I feel Mathews is more of a small forward than JP and NWG is that he is not the playmaker for others that the other two are. He doesn't have the point guard experience that the other two possess. That being said, he is essentially a wing.

  5. #55
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    on this height debate, for what its worth

    Melson is at least an inch taller than Perkins and Perkins is about a half inch taller than Mathews......now what their actual height is vs. their height in shoes vs thier roster height I have no idea. "Height" is not real meaningful when you consider some 6-2 guys can reach higher(which is what we care about in bball) than some 6-5 guys. The height off the ground of ones shoulders is actually a better measure for a bball player than the height to the top of thier head. Long neck and big head can shoot a guy up to 6-7 when his shoulders (and reach) are the same as a 6-4 guy.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDC84 View Post
    There are very, very few college basketball teams, and very, very few high major teams, who possess 6-6 small forwards. It is very common for very good teams to have all three perimeters standing at 6-3 or shorter.

    What matters is how good of a player each of the players is....on both ends of the floor.

    To me, a shooting guard and a small forward are essentially the same thing at this level. The reason why I feel Mathews is more of a small forward than JP and NWG is that he is not the playmaker for others that the other two are. He doesn't have the point guard experience that the other two possess. That being said, he is essentially a wing.
    Yep. End of conversation.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by cggonzaga View Post
    Yep. End of conversation.
    CDC's point that very few college teams have 6'6"+ small forwards and even fewer mid-majors was actually the starting point of the conversation for me.

    If Zags are fortunate enough to make it to a pivotal game vs just such a team in the NCAA's, it would be to their advantage to have developed Rui or Tillie or Jones at the small forward position via meaningful minutes so they are prepared to play 10-15 pivotal minutes against a top tier talent like the kid from Duke or the kid from Kansas rather than Zags getting completely overwhelmed by that position in the biggest game of the season.
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  8. #58
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    Mismatches go both ways. If you have 3 smaller quick guards on the floor, your opponent might have to try to guard one of them with a guy who just doesn't have the lateral speed to keep up. Kansas won a Championship within the last decade with a 3 guard lineup, and they were all right around 6' I believe. Worked for them.

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    Default Haichimura

    This seems to be an obvious one to me despite some dreamers who think he is going to be the first Japanese to be one and done to the NBA. The level of play in Japan is frankly suspect. Japan is not Lithuania or Germany or even Poland. Plus the kid is not likely to get many minutes with a crowded roster of upperclassmen. Better for him to spend a year adjusting to American life and school and language and save his eligibility.

  10. #60
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    Not so sure 77. In Summer scrimmages, he looked pretty amazing. He'll play. But it's up to him and coaches.

  11. #61
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    Zag 77 have you seen him play yet? He is like the energizer bunny on the court.
    If you want to be happy tomorrow, think good thoughts today--Bud Fisher


    .
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  12. #62
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    Agree with the others that have also seen him on the court--he'll play--his size and energy more than make up for any issue related to playing with talent deemed to be lighter in comparison to American high school competition. He was more than holding his own against our guys in the scrimmages.

    The only thing that might hold him back initially is the language challenges--not his basketball skillset/IQ.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zag 77 View Post
    This seems to be an obvious one to me despite some dreamers who think he is going to be the first Japanese to be one and done to the NBA. The level of play in Japan is frankly suspect. Japan is not Lithuania or Germany or even Poland. Plus the kid is not likely to get many minutes with a crowded roster of upperclassmen. Better for him to spend a year adjusting to American life and school and language and save his eligibility.
    I don't remember anyone saying one and done. That draft projection says 2018.

    He's grown up in a culture with an extremely high work ethic as well, and he's seen top competition in international play, and now in scrimmages. If his English is good enough to pass enough classes to stay eligible, he should play, trusting that the reports on him are accurate. Not gonna be around for a 5th year regardless.

  14. #64
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    Default Summer scrimmages

    I am not sure that I would bet the farm on summer scrimmage activity. I am sure it is fun to watch, but seriously....

    If summer scrimmages meant anything, Ira Brown and Gerard Coleman would have been consensus All-Americans.

    I would put a lot more credence on real practices with real coaching.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zag 77 View Post
    I am not sure that I would bet the farm on summer scrimmage activity. I am sure it is fun to watch, but seriously....

    If summer scrimmages meant anything, Ira Brown and Gerard Coleman would have been consensus All-Americans.

    I would put a lot more credence on real practices with real coaching.
    I don't think draftexpress would be that far off in their analysis. They weren't saying anything about Brown or Coleman...seriously or otherwise.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by seacatfan View Post
    Mismatches go both ways. If you have 3 smaller quick guards on the floor, your opponent might have to try to guard one of them with a guy who just doesn't have the lateral speed to keep up. Kansas won a Championship within the last decade with a 3 guard lineup, and they were all right around 6' I believe. Worked for them.
    Absolutely true seacatfan, and I am not suggesting Zags need a 6'6"+ small forward starting or even playing more than 10-12 minutes per game. The point I was making is coaches have to decide if developing one of Jones/Hachimura/Tillie is important enough to give at least one of them meaningful regular season minutes as the small forward position...or to go pretty much all in with a 3-guard lineup to maximize minutes for NWG, Perkins, Matthews, Melson and Norvell.

    Love all those guards, but I'm hoping one of Jones/Hachimura/Tillie plays so well to force coaches to give them meaningful minutes sowe can have that kind of defensive stopper available and prepared to step up on the big stage if Zags have to face a Duke or Kansas or any other of the rare NCAA teams with a dynamic, athletic 6'6"+ player at the small forward position.

    My favorite guard oriented college hoops team not named Gonzaga was the '97 NCAA Champs: Arizona Wildcats who featured: Miles Simon 6'5" Junior; Jason Terry 6'2" Soph; Mike Bibby 6'1" Frosh.

    Last year's Kansas team that lost in regional final with Final Four trip on the line (by 5 point to eventual Champ Villanova) was indeed another fine example of a successful team with basically a 3 guard lineup: Frank Mason III 5'11" Junior; Wayne Selden Jr. 6'5" Junior; Devonte Graham 6'2" Soph).

    Happy to see Zags running 3 guards most of the season with PK, Collins, Williams manning the post...just would like to see an athletic small forward earning some time too.
    It is their time....their team...I just get to watch. - Bartruff1

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    Yeah, I hear ya. Good to have flexibility with different lineups and have players ready to respond depending on situations.

    I remember that '97 Arizona team. They were fun to watch. Michael Dickerson was another member of the guard/wing rotation (probably 6-4 or 6-5 ish). They were actually much better the next season, but fell short during the Tourney.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seacatfan View Post
    Yeah, I hear ya. Good to have flexibility with different lineups and have players ready to respond depending on situations.

    I remember that '97 Arizona team. They were fun to watch. Michael Dickerson was another member of the guard/wing rotation (probably 6-4 or 6-5 ish). They were actually much better the next season, but fell short during the Tourney.
    Pardon me for the thread drift but on topic of great 3-guard lineups in college hoops gotta mention Bobby Cremins' 1990 Ga Tech team "Lethal Weapon Three" featuring Kenny Anderson, Dennis Scott and Brian Oliver.

    http://http://www.ramblinwreck.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/020515aab.html
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    I just finished viewing some fantastic videos of guys I think could play the 3, and definitely believe that Rui Machimura could. I loved his videos. this guy is SO athletic. He could play the 3 or 4, but I think he would do best at the 3 because he's such a great athlete. He handles the ball like a guard, shoots from the outside like a guard, has great moves from the top of the key but also from the wing. If he played at the 3 he could definitely post up smaller players the way Matt Bouldin did. I do believe that a 6' 8" can play the 3. Do you remember a Zag named Adam Morrison? Can you imagine Adam being able to play D like Rui?

    I also loved the videos of Zach Norvel. It is the first time I've watched videos of him. OMG! This guy is GREAT. I should have known he is because I knew he was the NO 1 player coming out of Chicago. He's 6' 4" or 6' 5" tall. He's the tallest guard. HIs videos show me that he can really handle the ball, as well as shoot. Turnovers were an issue last year, and if I'm right, Norvel handles the ball better than Melson for sure, and maybe even better than Josh P. I'm going to go with Melson red-shirting. I'll take Norvel over him.
    Go Zags!!! The Best Is Yet To Come!!!

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    Small ball became the rage when Duke had a lapse in recruiting and tried to play their best players who happened to be small by comparison to previous years. It was motivating to teams that didn't have big guys like Karno and suddenly everybody was saying you didn't need 7 foot guys to win, you could win with small fast guys.....except it didn't pan out so well in the dance. Given the choice of playing small ball, or a good mix of tall, medium, and small, having the tall guys in the mix works better every time. You can get to the dance with small ball, but it's very rare that a small team takes home the championship. Inside defense, offensive rebounds, defensive rebounds, blocked shots, and dominating the paint are too important in the end. Of course fast, lock down defense, hot perimeter shooting guards are also very important, but they can't get the put backs and lock down the paint. It takes a good mix of sizes and a well rounded team to take home the gold. GU has that mix this year in spades.

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    Ochefu was a serviceable big but Villanova won the Title last year mostly playing small ball. Their "4" was a stocky 6-5 guard who was raining 3's all during the Tourney.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seacatfan View Post
    Ochefu was a serviceable big but Villanova won the Title last year mostly playing small ball. Their "4" was a stocky 6-5 guard who was raining 3's all during the Tourney.
    That is, of course, the wild card. If you have 2-3 players that get hot from behind the arc, anything can happen. The Zags are only too aware of that.
    It's not funny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willandi View Post
    That is, of course, the wild card. If you have 2-3 players that get hot from behind the arc, anything can happen. The Zags are only too aware of that.
    I don't think I've seen a team get THAT hot for that extended of a period before. My dad and I went to the Pac 12 (was probably still 10 then though...) Tourney 1 year while it was still at Staples Center and saw an Oregon team led by Aaron Brooks just tear their way thru the competition. They had 4 or 5 guys that got hot and stayed hot, but that was only over like 3 days or whatever. Nova stayed scorching hot for a 3 week period. That was incredible.

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    The reference points for successful three guard offenses always seem to have one of the three who has some decent size (6'4" or 6'5" with girth). The zags ran this with Wesley and has great success. Problem is that Perkins, NWG, and Mathews are all too small to play that role. Maybe Melson could fill that role -- he's good on the glass and defensively on the wing -- but even then it's a stretch and wouldn't get the other three together in the starting lineup.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Mathews started out as the first scoring option off the bench... and possibly keeps that role all year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BULLDOG#1 View Post
    The reference points for successful three guard offenses always seem to have one of the three who has some decent size (6'4" or 6'5" with girth).
    Not the Kansas team that won a Championship. Chalmers and Robinson weren't much over 6 foot and fairly lanky. Collins was the beefiest but he was under 6 foot I think.

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