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Thread: So I have a question...

  1. #1
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    Default So I have a question...

    I hope I'm not infuriating you guys by asking this, but...

    As fans, do you ever think your Zags would be better off getting out of the WCC and into a bigger conference like the PAC-10? It seems to me your school has become the big fish in a small pond and at some point does that start to work against your program? Don't get me wrong, I think what Gonzaga has become under Few is fantastic, your success over the past 10+ years speaks for itself. But is there a glass ceiling being in a mid-major conference? I would imagine the financial gains would be huge not to mention the recruiting benefits. Could you imagine having Wiltjer, Sabonis along with a McDonald's All American at the point or wing (or even on the bench, developing) during their careers? That would be a Final Four team, period. But those McDonalds kids are hard to get unless you're a power conference team.

    As a Syracuse supporter I'm no fan of conference realignment. Our fan base was (and largely remains) infuriated when we found out we were leaving the Big East for the ACC and leaving all of our hated (and loved) rivals behind. But there are benefits to realignment and Gonzaga strikes me as a team that might benefit more than any other.

    Granted, football plays a huge roll in all this and I have no idea about the ramifications of that end of the argument. But the Zags in a power conference seems like the logical evolution of a program that is as consistently competitive as yours is every March.

    Just my two cents anyways...

    By the way, hell of a game last Friday. I'm sure you're heartbroken over the loss but your team played their hearts out and showed what a talented team they really are. Wiltjer and Sabonis were as good as advertised, just absolute beasts! Both teams deserved to win that game and Syracuse fans know it. It's too bad either teams season had to end Friday night.
    ~ The rare logical, polite, Syracuse fan...

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    no....

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    no also...

    The talent in our so-called weak conference is not as weak as some think. We do have some bottom feeders for sure but the league is no cupcake in the top half of the programs. Aside from the lack of football program, the WCC has small venues except BYU and have difficulty getting good OC games to make some noise. That is where Gonzaga has shined. Somehow they get great pre-conference games and tournaments. The Zag brand is well recognized these days so it will continue.

    I believe St. Mary's was not that far off of a potential FF team this year. They beat the Zags in both conference games and so the differential between us and them was not great if any. Some luck in the end and the Zags were FF IMO.
    To Fish & Game: Keep streams stocked well for Mr. Few!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cusefan View Post
    I hope I'm not infuriating you guys by asking this, but...

    As fans, do you ever think your Zags would be better off getting out of the WCC and into a bigger conference like the PAC-10? It seems to me your school has become the big fish in a small pond and at some point does that start to work against your program? Don't get me wrong, I think what Gonzaga has become under Few is fantastic, your success over the past 10+ years speaks for itself. But is there a glass ceiling being in a mid-major conference? I would imagine the financial gains would be huge not to mention the recruiting benefits. Could you imagine having Wiltjer, Sabonis along with a McDonald's All American at the point or wing (or even on the bench, developing) during their careers? That would be a Final Four team, period. But those McDonalds kids are hard to get unless you're a power conference team.

    As a Syracuse supporter I'm no fan of conference realignment. Our fan base was (and largely remains) infuriated when we found out we were leaving the Big East for the ACC and leaving all of our hated (and loved) rivals behind. But there are benefits to realignment and Gonzaga strikes me as a team that might benefit more than any other.

    Granted, football plays a huge roll in all this and I have no idea about the ramifications of that end of the argument. But the Zags in a power conference seems like the logical evolution of a program that is as consistently competitive as yours is every March.

    Just my two cents anyways...

    By the way, hell of a game last Friday. I'm sure you're heartbroken over the loss but your team played their hearts out and showed what a talented team they really are. Wiltjer and Sabonis were as good as advertised, just absolute beasts! Both teams deserved to win that game and Syracuse fans know it. It's too bad either teams season had to end Friday night.

    I don't think it works AGAINST us, but I do believe it does not maximize our potential as a basketball program, but there are other programs within the Zag family that has to be put into the equation
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    Pac 12 would never take a non-football school. the other Western Conferences just aren't that big of a jump up, if at all superior to WCC, the fit with the other schools is perfect, the only option as I see it is joining the Big East in its current format but cost and expense would kill us. Congrats on the FF, huge accomplishment for Syracuse!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cusefan View Post
    I hope I'm not infuriating you guys by asking this, but...

    As fans, do you ever think your Zags would be better off getting out of the WCC and into a bigger conference like the PAC-10? It seems to me your school has become the big fish in a small pond and at some point does that start to work against your program? Don't get me wrong, I think what Gonzaga has become under Few is fantastic, your success over the past 10+ years speaks for itself. But is there a glass ceiling being in a mid-major conference? I would imagine the financial gains would be huge not to mention the recruiting benefits. Could you imagine having Wiltjer, Sabonis along with a McDonald's All American at the point or wing (or even on the bench, developing) during their careers? That would be a Final Four team, period. But those McDonalds kids are hard to get unless you're a power conference team.

    As a Syracuse supporter I'm no fan of conference realignment. Our fan base was (and largely remains) infuriated when we found out we were leaving the Big East for the ACC and leaving all of our hated (and loved) rivals behind. But there are benefits to realignment and Gonzaga strikes me as a team that might benefit more than any other.

    Granted, football plays a huge roll in all this and I have no idea about the ramifications of that end of the argument. But the Zags in a power conference seems like the logical evolution of a program that is as consistently competitive as yours is every March.

    Just my two cents anyways...

    By the way, hell of a game last Friday. I'm sure you're heartbroken over the loss but your team played their hearts out and showed what a talented team they really are. Wiltjer and Sabonis were as good as advertised, just absolute beasts! Both teams deserved to win that game and Syracuse fans know it. It's too bad either teams season had to end Friday night.

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    That's a question that gets more and more play every year. In the abstract, the answer would be Yes. But the problem is finding another conference that would be a good fit. Pac-12 schools are not similar institutions and don't share GU's institutional priorities. It'd be a tough fit for most of our our non-basketball sports programs, too. Of the other conferences that would make sense geographically, none are clearly superior to the WCC.

    A lot of us keep hoping the other WCC schools elevate their game in an attempt to be something like the West Coast version of the Atlantic 10, but that hasn't happened yet and there are, if anything, signs that the rest of our conference mates (other than BYU and St. Mary's) are getting worse, not better.

    The only other option that's been mentioned has been joining a nationalized Big East, which is already composed of predominantly Catholic, mid-sized, non-football schools that are similar to GU. But that option brings many challenges, too: the travel would be killer, especially when taking into account all of the other teams that would have to make those long trips. And there just don't seem to be enough west coast schools that would fit the Big East profile to allow Gonzaga to stay in the west enough. But who knows?

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    No. This is because our other sports are not on par of other big conferences. Our other sports are finally getting more revenue and donations. Our fans are getting into baseball and lady zags and even rowing. We got a long way to go. I think the WCC is a perfect fit.

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    No, I totally agree with what you guys are saying. I will say I thought the Big East would be the PERFECT conference for you guys! But the distance involved would just make it too hard and too costly.

    You would be one hell of a nice addition to Big East basketball though. Great conference, I miss it.
    ~ The rare logical, polite, Syracuse fan...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cusefan View Post
    I hope I'm not infuriating you guys by asking this, but...

    As fans, do you ever think your Zags would be better off getting out of the WCC and into a bigger conference like the PAC-10? It seems to me your school has become the big fish in a small pond and at some point does that start to work against your program? Don't get me wrong, I think what Gonzaga has become under Few is fantastic, your success over the past 10+ years speaks for itself. But is there a glass ceiling being in a mid-major conference? I would imagine the financial gains would be huge not to mention the recruiting benefits. Could you imagine having Wiltjer, Sabonis along with a McDonald's All American at the point or wing (or even on the bench, developing) during their careers? That would be a Final Four team, period. But those McDonalds kids are hard to get unless you're a power conference team.

    As a Syracuse supporter I'm no fan of conference realignment. Our fan base was (and largely remains) infuriated when we found out we were leaving the Big East for the ACC and leaving all of our hated (and loved) rivals behind. But there are benefits to realignment and Gonzaga strikes me as a team that might benefit more than any other.

    Granted, football plays a huge roll in all this and I have no idea about the ramifications of that end of the argument. But the Zags in a power conference seems like the logical evolution of a program that is as consistently competitive as yours is every March.

    Just my two cents anyways...

    By the way, hell of a game last Friday. I'm sure you're heartbroken over the loss but your team played their hearts out and showed what a talented team they really are. Wiltjer and Sabonis were as good as advertised, just absolute beasts! Both teams deserved to win that game and Syracuse fans know it. It's too bad either teams season had to end Friday night.
    Quick question, because this comes up occasionally from elites; do you know of an open invite to a better conference than the WCC that we can immediately join? Because, you do realize that you can't just "join"a conference, you actually have to be invited, correct/

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    Quote Originally Posted by thespywhozaggedme View Post
    Quick question, because this comes up occasionally from elites; do you know of an open invite to a better conference than the WCC that we can immediately join? Because, you do realize that you can't just "join"a conference, you actually have to be invited, correct/
    Well obviously a lot of factors come into play but think about the massive transition that occurred when SU, Pitt, ND and L-Ville all left the conference. The Big East morphed into a new conference and the All America conference was created. Lots of teams jumped around and ended up in a new conference and that all happened within 2 years. Gonzaga would certainly be a ripe target for membership considering the reputation and prestige of your university. It's not a fast process in most cases and it can be expensive (SU, Maryland, Pitt, L-Ville all had multi million dollar penalties to pay) but it does happen more and more often.

    No disrespect to the WCC, it's a fine conference. I just wonder if they are holding Gonzaga back, at least from the hoops perspective.
    ~ The rare logical, polite, Syracuse fan...

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    I think we're OK right where we are. Small can be both good and beautiful. Just too bad in my view that we can't go back to the days when independents were squarely in the mix. Seattle U grad here who remembers SU as an independent riding Elgin Baylor all the way to the championship game at the dance. SU played lots of big time, big conference teams back then.

    I know this is a non starter. Just a little nostalgia creeping in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrizZAG View Post
    no also...

    The talent in our so-called weak conference is not as weak as some think. We do have some bottom feeders for sure but the league is no cupcake in the top half of the programs. Aside from the lack of football program, the WCC has small venues except BYU and have difficulty getting good OC games to make some noise. That is where Gonzaga has shined. Somehow they get great pre-conference games and tournaments. The Zag brand is well recognized these days so it will continue.

    I believe St. Mary's was not that far off of a potential FF team this year. They beat the Zags in both conference games and so the differential between us and them was not great if any. Some luck in the end and the Zags were FF IMO.
    1 bid conference... it's exactly as weak as most think, and not nearly as strong as many around here make it out to be. outside of GU, the WCC is irrelevant-ville.

    St Marys, who couldnt get an at large, wasnt far off from a final four team? did i read that correctly?

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    I think we should create our own basketball-only conference and turn it into a high-flying mid-major coup:

    Gonzaga
    San Diego St
    BYU
    Boise St
    Utah St
    Weber St
    St Mary's
    Long Beach St
    UNLV
    New Mexico
    Montana

    Take all the best basketball teams in their respective Western conferences, make one battle royal...

    That's some bball programs and teams above. Would be a blast, put affiliation aside, and play some hoops!

    That would a 3 or 4 bid conference every season.

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    I'd love to switch, though I'm not as nostalgic for WCC (or WCAC) history as some here are. But as mentioned, logistically, it's not feasible at the moment.

    Also agree with RTZ - I think there would have to be a dramatic realignment on the west coast for Gonzaga to even consider moving.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cbbfanatic View Post
    1 bid conference... it's exactly as weak as most think, and not nearly as strong as many around here make it out to be. outside of GU, the WCC is irrelevant-ville.

    St Marys, who couldnt get an at large, wasnt far off from a final four team? did i read that correctly?
    We agree to disagree. Zags weren't far off and St.Mary's beat us two of three so yes that is MO..
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    Quote Originally Posted by raise the zag View Post
    I think we should create our own basketball-only conference and turn it into a high-flying mid-major coup:

    Gonzaga
    San Diego St
    BYU
    Boise St
    Utah St
    Weber St
    St Mary's
    Long Beach St
    UNLV
    New Mexico
    Montana

    Take all the best basketball teams in their respective Western conferences, make one battle royal...

    That's some bball programs and teams above. Would be a blast, put affiliation aside, and play some hoops!

    That would a 3 or 4 bid conference every season.
    All but 3 play football which pays the bills. Do you think their current conferences would be willing let them out to just play basketball? The second issue is TV money, what network is going to support this (BYU will still want to do their own thing). I agree with that on paper it would be a good conferences and it would be a lot of fun to watch the Zags compete.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raise the zag View Post
    I think we should create our own basketball-only conference and turn it into a high-flying mid-major coup:

    Gonzaga
    San Diego St
    BYU
    Boise St
    Utah St
    Weber St
    St Mary's
    Long Beach St
    UNLV
    New Mexico
    Montana

    Take all the best basketball teams in their respective Western conferences, make one battle royal...

    That's some bball programs and teams above. Would be a blast, put affiliation aside, and play some hoops!

    That would a 3 or 4 bid conference every season.
    Creative thinking I will say that. Interesting
    However not sure many of those teams want to be in any conference that has BYU in it, they were very unpopular in their prior affiliations.
    To Fish & Game: Keep streams stocked well for Mr. Few!

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    What happened to all the support for joining the Big East?

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    Default Agree with you 100%

    Quote Originally Posted by cbbfanatic View Post
    1 bid conference... it's exactly as weak as most think, and not nearly as strong as many around here make it out to be. outside of GU, the WCC is irrelevant-ville.

    St Marys, who couldnt get an at large, wasnt far off from a final four team? did i read that correctly?

    I agree with you 100% on this reply

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrizZAG View Post
    We agree to disagree. Zags weren't far off and St.Mary's beat us two of three so yes that is MO..
    i want to leave this alone... but i just cant do it. the argument you're trying to make is too interesting

    let me get this straight... any team that beat a sweet 16 team counts as "not far off" from a ff team? under that logic, there are probably dozens of teams that didn't even make the tournament that weren't "far off." georgetown, st johns, pitt (3x), clemson, & FSU BEAT syracuse this year (an actual final four team)... how close were they to a final four? close enough to sniff it?

    seems crazy to me. i wouldnt even consider a sweet 16 team to be all that close. only halfway there from a tournament win standpoint, and those elite 8 games are usually huge challenges (s16 games too for the most part, relative to what it takes to get there). teams draw their way to the sweet 16 all the time, but the jump to final four is HUGE. there are a lot of sub-elite programs out there with absolutely dismal elite 8 records. john chaney, who had a lot of really good temple teams in the day, was something like 0-6 in the elite 8. i think notre dame's record there is a bit rough too (though not 0-fer). to say a sweet 16 team isnt far off feels delusional to me. i realize that the way was paved pretty well for GU this year, but still, i wouldn't say they were all that close.

    i get how it feels close, given that the loss was on friday and final four bids started being earned saturday, but there's a lot of achievement in between a sweet 16 and final four. given that gonzaga has been to a decent # of second weekends, but 0 final fours, i would think this idea would be common around here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cbbfanatic View Post
    i want to leave this alone... but i just cant do it. the argument you're trying to make is too interesting

    let me get this straight... any team that beat a sweet 16 team counts as "not far off" from a ff team? under that logic, there are probably dozens of teams that didn't even make the tournament that weren't "far off." georgetown, st johns, pitt (3x), clemson, & FSU BEAT syracuse this year (an actual final four team)... how close were they to a final four? close enough to sniff it?

    seems crazy to me. i wouldnt even consider a sweet 16 team to be all that close. only halfway there from a tournament win standpoint, and those elite 8 games are usually huge challenges (s16 games too for the most part, relative to what it takes to get there). teams draw their way to the sweet 16 all the time, but the jump to final four is HUGE. there are a lot of sub-elite programs out there with absolutely dismal elite 8 records. john chaney, who had a lot of really good temple teams in the day, was something like 0-6 in the elite 8. i think notre dame's record there is a bit rough too (though not 0-fer). to say a sweet 16 team isnt far off feels delusional to me. i realize that the way was paved pretty well for GU this year, but still, i wouldn't say they were all that close.

    i get how it feels close, given that the loss was on friday and final four bids started being earned saturday, but there's a lot of achievement in between a sweet 16 and final four. given that gonzaga has been to a decent # of second weekends, but 0 final fours, i would think this idea would be common around here.
    Not defending the transitive property of wins argument, but the 1 bid argument is just as foolish. There have been several seasons we've had more than one bid in the WCC. There have been many instances of a conference ranked about 10th in the nation getting more than one bid. Both BYU and St. Marys are not irrelevant.

    Mid-majors getting screwed by the committee year after year is not PROOF that those teams aren't deserving. Had St. Mary's been in a major conference with the exact same schedule the committee would have included them in the field because they had 2 (or 3 depending on the rankings used) top 50 wins. They had an RPI of 40. They won 27 games. They had KenPom, Sagarin, BPI, RPI, and top 50 wins that all put them IN the field. Had BYU been in the PAC-12, with the same resume, they would have been in over Oregon State.

    So, your argument that there is one relevant team in the WCC is pretty ignorant (but I think intentionally so for some reason). Put me on ignore please.

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    By staying in WCC, Gonzaga has strung together 18 consecutive trips to the NCAA tournament. Who knows what would have happened had they played in a different conference. As a result of this sustained success Gonzaga has become a National brand and are attracting better and better players every year. On top of all that, Gonzaga has been successful in the tournament. Seven "Sweet-16" appearances, 2 Elite-Eight's during the "run". I know, I know .. ZAGS still haven't made the Final Four.

    So, what do you do? Jump ship (assuming, hypothetically, that was an option) and join a power conference where the Zags will be battle tested and ready for the tough tournament teams, or stay where we are and be a perennial "mid-major" power house who is still knocking at the door for a FF?

    To me, it's a no-brainer. Stay put, hope the conference keeps moving in the right direction, enjoy our success and just know that WE WILL BREAK THROUGH! It's sometimes just a matter of a bad bounce, bad call our untimely injury. Zags will get there.

    I BELIEVE

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    1. I'd like to say how thoughtful and quite friendly the Cuse fans who visit us have been. DeWitt got a bit harsh on our guards but it's nothing we didnt know.
    2. We are geographically isolated. We really would be a WAC school and the Pac 12 won't have a non FB school even though we joined the Pac 12 for a few years for baseball.
    3. Philosophical aligned with the other schools.
    4. Love the Big East but the distances are simply to far. Kids would never be home to study. That's a big deal in Zagville.
    SO we're stuck in an inferior league and we put up with it. It weakens us and the perception of GU, but that's the way it goes. No way out of this that I can see.
    5. St Mary's was never close to a FF team.

    We do the best we can given our situation. The "best" seems to be working out so far. I know this much: I am still shocked we made it to the round of 16 . When the guards regressed against Cuse, the party got over............even though we should have won that game. When we reeled of losses early in the year, it was guard play that faltered but we were in every game til the end. That's a tribute to the team..especially the bigs.
    Loved this team. Lots of courage. We'll be much better next year. .ie 7 months away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mgadfly View Post
    Not defending the transitive property of wins argument, but the 1 bid argument is just as foolish. There have been several seasons we've had more than one bid in the WCC. There have been many instances of a conference ranked about 10th in the nation getting more than one bid. Both BYU and St. Marys are not irrelevant.

    Mid-majors getting screwed by the committee year after year is not PROOF that those teams aren't deserving. Had St. Mary's been in a major conference with the exact same schedule the committee would have included them in the field because they had 2 (or 3 depending on the rankings used) top 50 wins. They had an RPI of 40. They won 27 games. They had KenPom, Sagarin, BPI, RPI, and top 50 wins that all put them IN the field. Had BYU been in the PAC-12, with the same resume, they would have been in over Oregon State.

    So, your argument that there is one relevant team in the WCC is pretty ignorant (but I think intentionally so for some reason). Put me on ignore please.
    it is impossible for BYU and St Mary's to be in big conferences with their same schedules/resumes from this year. they would have played drastically different slates. how it would have panned out is anyone's guess, but the premise here is impossible

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cusefan View Post
    No, I totally agree with what you guys are saying. I will say I thought the Big East would be the PERFECT conference for you guys! But the distance involved would just make it too hard and too costly.

    You would be one hell of a nice addition to Big East basketball though. Great conference, I miss it.
    There was talk about this, but a couple of issues. Finding the right partner to pair GU (St Mary?). Also the travel cost for the non-basketball sports. It would work, but finding the right mix.
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