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Thread: Gonzaga vs Arizona Saturday 12/6/2014

  1. #126
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    I guess the hate is from last yr and some snarks this year. My apologies and yes i do think sabonis is better.
    Love the zags for life

  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zags11 View Post
    The hate on here for karno is sad and hypocritical by some. Its a damn shame.
    Hate is a pretty strong word for this discussion. I think the posters have presented a reasonable analysis of what Karno brings or doesn't bring to the game. I wish the guy the very best, but sometimes it appears he hasn't developed that much from last year. I believe he should continue to start. Don't want Sabonis starting and getting a couple of cheap fouls right off the bat. And I hope Karno has a great game!

  3. #128
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    Last year we got bullied. It's that simple. The Cats play the basketball equivalent of smash mouth football. They drive the lane, knock you on your butt and then step on you on the way to the hole. Nothing dirty- just physical. Last year KP and Bell ended up on their backs in the lane half the time. Dower wanted nothing to do with it. The only player that didn't back down was Shem and he kicked ***. So this year its either man up or else. They don't respect us. Having said this, they can be beat. They don't shoot as well as us. They are vulnerable in the front court. I'll be there yelling my lungs out for the Zags. Few has got to get them ready for this one. It's going to be good.

  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagdawg View Post
    The marshmallow and benching comments are all in good fun--- definitely not hate-- just a different opinion by a couple of "fans".

    I like the energy Sabonis brings off the bench -- if he were starting he would be hitting the bench with his two fouls earlier in the half---- I can't wait until he can stay on the floor longer-- he will be an even bigger asset to the team.

    I think is is not only disgusting, it is cowardly....a couple of jerks that wouldn't have the courage to say that to his face...

  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlagZag View Post
    Last year we got bullied. It's that simple. The Cats play the basketball equivalent of smash mouth football. They drive the lane, knock you on your butt and then step on you on the way to the hole. Nothing dirty- just physical. Last year KP and Bell ended up on their backs in the lane half the time. Dower wanted nothing to do with it. The only player that didn't back down was Shem and he kicked ***. So this year its either man up or else. They don't respect us. Having said this, they can be beat. They don't shoot as well as us. They are vulnerable in the front court. I'll be there yelling my lungs out for the Zags. Few has got to get them ready for this one. It's going to be good.
    Hey. Got me believing!

  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenoZag View Post
    Jazz,

    Karnowski averages 6.4 boards per game, 8.3 points per game, has committed the same number of turnovers (11) as Sabonis & Nunez, and one less than Wesley (12).
    http://espn.go.com/mens-college-bask...nzaga-bulldogs


    He takes up space in the middle, changes shots, alters things. He's not a world beater but he is an asset worth using. I think it would be absurd to bench him for the game, as suggested above by baseline in Post 91 of this very lively and entertaining pre-game discussion.

    Beat the Wildcats.
    And we finally saw him dunk one last night. Yippie!!!
    Go Zags!!! The Best Is Yet To Come!!!

  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartruff1 View Post
    I think is is not only disgusting, it is cowardly....a couple of jerks that wouldn't have the courage to say that to his face...
    +1
    21 Straight Big Dances

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    2017 FINAL FOUR

    2 Winningest Players in college basketball history (Karnowski 137, Perkins 134)

    The Best Point Guard to ever play the game: John Stockton, most assists, most steals.

  8. #133
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    I can understand how fans are frustrated by the play of Karnowski this year. PK played so good in his last game of the season last year (Arizona). I guess we expected more from him. He has been very clumsy this year, and imo, he has regressed and I'm not sure why. Not sure what he did last summer. His hands just seem horrible, as he seems to have a very hard time catching the ball. I will also say that at times he's looked very good. He was good the second half last night. He appeared to be clumsy in NYC. I just couldn't figure him out.

    And then what has been most frustrating to me is that he continually gets in foul trouble, and from just plain 'ol stupid fouls. He has a very bad habit doing that, and now we see Domas doing it too. If that happens Saturday, and it sure could, then forget about a victory. These two guys need to learn the rules. I must admit that even though I am criticizing him I like him, and I believe when he is playing good he can really help the Zags. I just hope and pray he brings his A game Sunday. And he can. I definitely have not written him off. He needs to wake up though.

    Go Zags!!!
    Go Zags!!! The Best Is Yet To Come!!!

  9. #134
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    In my opinion big K has been playing decent, we sometimes need to remember the games he has struggled have been small much faster and more athletic teams, quick hands that are constantly swatting at him. that is hard for a big guy, its frustrating, and often times that frustration is half what we are seeing in his production.Big K really can't do much if he is such a force that one wrong step from him will turn the others team center into a pancake.
    Big K is there to take space, he is there to alter shots, and he does that just fine. He is at a disadvantage against these athletic agile fast centers he has gone up against so far this season. when he plays against a team that incorporates a typical back to the basket center, Big K will dominate.

  10. #135
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    Karno will start all year. We need Sabonus to shoot free throws at the end of the game. It is critical.
    The hallmark of a second class person is the resentment of another's success-R.W. Emerson
    Whatever you focus your mind on grows, grow a rose garden and not a weed patch-Dr Paul

    .

  11. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arizona Zag View Post
    I say we start Sabonis and pray he stays out of foul trouble. I think this game will be way to fast for Karo. The trouble Karno has holding on to the ball could be turnover city. AZ is very athletic. We can not have that kind of game playing AZ.
    Recipe for disaster. Likely 2 quick fouls and your options are limited for the rest of the game. That would be a desperation move and mess w/ team chemistry as well. He's perfect for the 6 th man role as a fr., comes in 3-4 minutes into the game and injects energy and disrupts the other team's rhythm on both ends. No matter how good he is, you don't make drastic changes in a game like this.

    And you are failing to understand Karnowski's considerable contributions and value. He's the defensive anchor on this team, and is actually now rebounding at a slightly higher rate per minute, and per game, than Sabonis. Both avg 19.9 min per game, Karno 6.4 boards, DS 6.3

  12. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arizona Zag View Post
    Zagger

    That was a nice story. This AZ game Saturday will be won and lost at the low post. Who do you want playing the last two minutes of the game PK or Sabonis? There are times PK can't find his a** with both hands at the foul line. Go Zags!
    Agree with this one; I want Sabonis in the game down the stretch. And the way to increase the likelihood of that is to start PK, and reduce the likelihood of DS foul trouble.

  13. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagdawg View Post

    I like the energy Sabonis brings off the bench -- if he were starting he would be hitting the bench with his two fouls earlier in the half---- I can't wait until he can stay on the floor longer-- he will be an even bigger asset to the team.
    This. He's a fr and adjusting to a new country and style of play. This is a deep and talented team, one through 11 when everybody's healthy/eligible. He doesn't have to be the savior or the star yet, even if he's the most talented guy.

    As a fan, I go back to the days when Cunningham and Havlicek were game changing 6th men for the 76ers and Celts. Jack Ramsay and Red Auerbach, two of the greatest coaches in the history of the game, understood the dynamic of bringing one of your best offensive players into the game a few minutes after the start. The 6th man needs to be a game changer; both of the above were all stars coming off the bench. It works with the right guys, who are rare, and they can still play starter minutes if it's called for.

    And ultimately, it's who finishes, not who starts.

    The 6th man role is perfect for DS at this point in his career. Bench PK and, given his personality, you lose him, damage his shaky confidence, and the team is hurt going forward. Lucky we have coaches who understand the dynamics of the game better than some fans.

    As to the marshmallow and benching comments being in good fun, though, no.

  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlagZag View Post
    Last year we got bullied. It's that simple. The Cats play the basketball equivalent of smash mouth football. They drive the lane, knock you on your butt and then step on you on the way to the hole. Nothing dirty- just physical. Last year KP and Bell ended up on their backs in the lane half the time. Dower wanted nothing to do with it. The only player that didn't back down was Shem and he kicked ***. So this year its either man up or else. They don't respect us. Having said this, they can be beat. They don't shoot as well as us. They are vulnerable in the front court. I'll be there yelling my lungs out for the Zags. Few has got to get them ready for this one. It's going to be good.
    Nice post.

    Know why Shem got so fired up last year against AZ...cause they get physical. The last place you want Shem to be is on the bench...I want to see the guy in there mixing it up...in fact he'll have no choice but, mix it up. The coaches might not know how to fire him up...but AZ does. They don't respect us...is right...in fact, most teams consider us soft. Az is one of those teams that if you cower from them...you'll get blown out. Play tough or go home. Do you really think the refs are gonna call it close on AZ's home floor? It'll be a knock down drag out and we'll need Shem....Domantas...Wiltjer...Nunez and maybe a baseball bat for good measure. We can't play scared or nervous...just paly to win!

    Shem on the bench??? Some of you need to wake up.

  15. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenoZag View Post
    Perhaps baseline will tell us
    I made the comment out of frustration and with tongue firmly in the cheek. I do not expect it to happen, nor would I actually do it if I was the coach, my primary motive was to see what people are thinking, it worked very well. I view it as a problem and problems can end in one game if he finds his aggressiveness. I view this as a very good team with very high potential, but to reach that potential PK is a HUGE part of the equation, just fishing!
    "The trouble with quotes on the Internet is you can never know if they are genuine"---Abraham Lincoln.

  16. #141
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    PK is playing as well on the defensive end as he did last year. In addition, he has become a more coordinated athlete that rarely falls onto the floor like he did as a youngster.

    Where he is struggling mentally is with his numbers, imo. Undoubtedly concerned about his own future career, he seems to be out of sorts trying to deal with the balanced makeup of this team that spreads touches more evenly than before.

    I watch him a lot at the home games, away from the ball. He'll work like crazy in spurts, not see the ball delivered, and then go passive for awhile. Instead on constantly leaning on his opponent and wearing a lesser body out, he'll avoid contact (and cheap fouls, granted) and be content setting screens. But, most importantly, his shot has become errant. It is the most discouraging and negative aspect of his otherwise wonderful development. He doesn't optimize his size, and often flips up a shot either out of position or out of balance, basically forcing stuff too much, something just the opposite of Sabonis who repeats his strongest shot incessantly.

    He's like a really good golfer with the yips, at the moment. He's a smart guy, hard worker, and probably will figure it out as the year goes on. And at this juncture, he is a more potent defender than all of our other bigs.

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    Let's just say PK has a problem with most ALL of his game. Let's make it clear nobody hates this kid nobody is going to walk up to him and tell him what we think. This team has got much better 2X with 9 players. We HAVE NOT SEEN Karno improve. Forget his highlights which are so few. We are all looking for Karno to be more consistent and play like Sabonis. These are the bad things with his game, but first let me mention the GOOD THINGS for the ones who think we hate or picking on him. He fills good space down low, he's 7'-1" 285, (repeat of space) he will battle down low that's it. Now these are BAD THINGS-bad hands, bad feet, slow, sets lazy picks at 3 pt. line, can't run, can't jump, marginal for lay ups under the iron, won't dunk, can't win a jump ball, bad from the foul line we are seeing more foul trouble with him is there anything else wrong with his game? We all like PK as a kid but Few needs to make a decision with his game. We have Sabonis on the bench the Zags have never had a guy like this with his caliber as a freshman. The team plays better with Sabonis these are the cold hard facts. Go Zags!

  18. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasontixholder View Post
    PK is playing as well on the defensive end as he did last year. In addition, he has become a more coordinated athlete that rarely falls onto the floor like he did as a youngster.

    Where he is struggling mentally is with his numbers, imo. Undoubtedly concerned about his own future career, he seems to be out of sorts trying to deal with the balanced makeup of this team that spreads touches more evenly than before.

    I watch him a lot at the home games, away from the ball. He'll work like crazy in spurts, not see the ball delivered, and then go passive for awhile. Instead on constantly leaning on his opponent and wearing a lesser body out, he'll avoid contact (and cheap fouls, granted) and be content setting screens. But, most importantly, his shot has become errant. It is the most discouraging and negative aspect of his otherwise wonderful development. He doesn't optimize his size, and often flips up a shot either out of position or out of balance, basically forcing stuff too much, something just the opposite of Sabonis who repeats his strongest shot incessantly.

    He's like a really good golfer with the yips, at the moment. He's a smart guy, hard worker, and probably will figure it out as the year goes on. And at this juncture, he is a more potent defender than all of our other bigs.


    Isn't that the definition of selfish?

  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arizona Zag View Post
    Zagger

    That was a nice story. This AZ game Saturday will be won and lost at the low post. Who do you want playing the last two minutes of the game PK or Sabonis? There are times PK can't find his a** with both hands at the foul line. Go Zags!
    I may sound overly optimistic (stupid?) but I don't think it'll be that close in the last two mins :-) It may not matter whether it is PK or DS. I just really like what I saw from PK against Arizona. PK flat out moved, dribbled, and took good care of the ball - his play was somewhat similar to what we see in Sabonis. I don't know if it is a 'riled up' threshold that PK can reach or what. Maybe PK has a difference in 'flow' between game plan and instincts - and when his instincts take over he's a better player (???) just thinking out loud here. Anywho, I hope the Zag's score is enough ahead of Arizona's that it does not come down to a mess of fouls at the end. I believe that if the Zags are going to win this game it's going to be done by firepower O and sufficient D. The Zags are going to have to make a lot of their shots and not hesitate to take those shots.

  20. #145

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    Zagger

    I will give you the live up close report. I will be at the game Saturday second row on the baseline under the basket. This game will be similar to the game at Butler 2 years back which I also attended. I hope it doesn't end up the same way. The teams of which I mentioned we need a low post player as Kelly O. Sabonis is are best chance of winning in AZ. Go Zags!

  21. #146
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    I'm not sure where I stand on the Karno debate right now. Last year I thought he was our most important player. This year it seems like he's taken a step back, but to be honest I'm not sure if it's his fault or the refs. Every time he gets physical it seems like he gets called for a foul. I don't see him bringing his hands down and swiping at the ball very often, most of his fouls are called when he decides to match opponents physicality. Then he gets discouraged and plays really passive defense/rebounding and opposing players still initiate contact with him and get calls occasionally. It would be hard to have any kind of rhythm when you can't play aggressively.

    That being said, he's still really important for us and makes a big impact on the court even if he does make some poor plays. He's an overall positive over anyone on the bench not named Sabonis, and Sabonis can't play the whole game anyways. Shem tires them out and Sabonis comes in and takes over. I like it.

  22. #147
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    What I would like to see in the last two minutes of Saturdays game against Rizona is, Shem blocking up the middle, changing shots, grabbing some boards and feeding our outside shooters. Sabonis rolling off of picks, grabbing the loose change and altering shots, Wiltjer posting back to the basket, floating out for mid-range jumpers and nailing the three, and all the while KP and Bell Jr, floating around the outside, disrupting the mind set of shooters (the ones that don't dare try to go inside), making pin-point passes to the three bigs and nailing the threes. Throw in a few runners, and its a recipe for success...and thats just in the last two minutes! We will hand them their 'A' back during the game.

  23. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arizona Zag View Post
    I will give you the live up close report. I will be at the game Saturday second row on the baseline under the basket. This game will be similar to the game at Butler 2 years back which I also attended. I hope it doesn't end up the same way. The teams of which I mentioned we need a low post player as Kelly O. Sabonis is are best chance of winning in AZ. Go Zags!
    Cool! It's going to be a great game to be at. My only worries are turnovers. Passing (and catching) has to be spot on. When any team moves the ball around (successfully) someone on D is going to be caught in a bad position. I'd love to see the Zags wear down Arizona and wear out their fans :-) Go Zags! Have a great time at the game Azag!

  24. #149
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    I think some of this Karno conversation is comical - but I will add one thing to it: If Sabonis could keep his butt out of foul trouble, Karno could play a hell of a lot more aggressively, especially on defense. I for one have seen Karno holding back so far this year, and I think that's perhaps part of it. I think that needs to be noted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Few
    We are not here as a #%$&%&! Courtesy!!!

  25. #150

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    rennis

    I don't mean to pick a bone, certainly not a Zag bone :-). But really, "comical" Sabonis is a freshman. He is learning to see how aggressive he can play from the Euopean league. Tell us ALL you don't see a difference in play from PK vs DS? You without a dought can tell who's father played professional ball. Few would never stand for any player of his holding back!Look at the complete stats DS is better in every category other than block shots. Go Zags.

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