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Thread: Interesting info regarding future of BYU in the WCC. Should WCC expand to keep BYU?

  1. #1

    Default Interesting info regarding future of BYU in the WCC. Should WCC expand to keep BYU?

    I saw this over on the San Francisco board, and thought I'd share here for discussion:
    http://members4.boardhost.com/donsce...400600557.html

    It looks like BYU football is really struggling as a football independent, and now it is possibly affecting their membership in the WCC. Recently the SEC and ACC, and now the MWC (yesterday), are talking about not wanting to schedule BYU in football, because it hurts their own interests in trying to win games. SEC/ACC/MWC are blackballing scheduling BYU in football. If BYU can't schedule football games, it might have to rejoin the MWC, or join the AAC.

    BYU fans are discussing the following scenarios:

    (1) needing to leave the WCC and rejoin the MWC for all sports, so their football team has a home. BYU fans hate this idea, it appears, and prefer the WCC. Say that the WCC is much better than the "white trash" MWC. BYU fans seem to think that the WCC is a much better league, with better ESPN deal than what the MWC has.

    (2) joining the American Athletic Conference as a "football only" school, along with San Diego State (14 AAC schools). Then getting the WCC to expand to 12 teams, by adding San Diego State, and Denver. This would be travel partners of USD and SDSU, and BYU and Denver. 12 school WCC. I guess BYU thinks it won't be able to join the AAC unless it gets another western school to join with it. And BYU fans say that SDSU fans are in love with the WCC, and want to leave the MWC for the WCC.


    What do you think? Should the WCC be concerned about losing BYU, and going back to 9 teams?

    Should the WCC agree to add a public school like San Diego State, who is ranked in basketball?

    How does it affect the WCC if BYU leaves? Would we be stuck in a weak 1-trick pony conference?

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    I'm absolutely opposed to adding SDSU, and I feel confident that it'd never happen. Not that they aren't an excellent basketball school, just that the type of school they are would be a terrible fit.
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    I'm not sure what to think re SDSU. But if BYU leaves the WCC (out of necessity), I'm afraid that the WCC would be very weak once again.

    I'm more in favor of strengthening the WCC, than having it become weaker. I guess I don't mind adding a public school like SDSU (good basketball tradition), if it helps the WCC to stay strong. If SDSU is added, we'd have 4 strong programs: Gonzaga, BYU, SDSU, and Saint Mary

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    only add if we can subtract the perennial bottom feeders. Harsh and unrealistic, but we have already lost a bunch of non conference games because of the continual expansion.

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    Default Interesting info regarding future of BYU in the WCC. Should WCC expand to ke...

    The WCC presidents will never allow the admission of a state school. And yes, we should be very concerned about BYU. The worst thing that could happen to conference would be an expansion to twelve teams.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelo Roncalli View Post
    The WCC presidents will never allow the admission of a state school. And yes, we should be very concerned about BYU. The worst thing that could happen to conference would be an expansion to twelve teams.


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    We need to be concerned about losing BYU, but no way would it ever happen to add SDSU. I don't want them either. I do wanna keep BYU though.
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    I think the concern is this:

    (1) BYU's hand is being forced. It wants to be independent in football, but might not be able to sustain that, and will need to join a conference for football.

    (2) If BYU has to join a conference for football, it prefers the AAC over the MWC. The AAC will allow it to join as a "football only", but only if it can find another "football only" partner to balance it out.

    (3) SDSU would be the best candidate to join the AAC as a "football only", but might not make that jump with BYU unless it has a good landing spot for its non-football sports. SDSU is a nationally ranked basketball program, and I don't think they'll kill their program in the WAC or Big West (they bolted from the Big West because they thought it was too weak after Pacific left).

    (4) SDSU would help BYU and also go along with the AAC, but only if it can get a spot in the WCC with BYU.


    It seems like a zero sum game. If the WCC doesn't help BYU (and by extension SDSU), then maybe BYU leaves the WCC for the MWC (not by choice), which in turn hurts the WCC.

    This is how I am reading this... Am I wrong?

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    whats the point of having all these bright and shiny elite players now if we play most of the year against dreck?

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    I have to agree that the WCC would more than likely not add a public school such as SDSU. But in looking at other conferences there appear to be no rules regarding # of conference games to be played. I really don't want to leave our season to fate, but if for example SDSU were in the conference this season, it would be possible to play a unbalanced schedule of 16 total games. If luck were to be on our side we could play SDSU twice and whichever teams were bottom dwellers, we may only face once. In this scenario, we could strengthen our RPI and play more OOC games.

    On the other hand, it could be that we only play the stronger teams once and the season would be shot unless we ran the table in conference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    whats the point of having all these bright and shiny elite players now if we play most of the year against dreck?
    Exactly.

    And, I'll go one further. What is the point of being in the WCC and the dead weight below, IF, they are going to allow a gigantic, big budget state school into the conference. BYU was a good fit b/c, although it is a huge, football playing school, it is still a good academic, private, religious school. Denver might not be a bad option but only if one of the bottom teams in the conference, with low basketball budget, seeks to drop down into either D-2 or a different, lower budget, league.

    There is some advantage to the WCC, if it remains a group of private schools with a religious mission, standing for more than just money grabbing.
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    I thought it was incredibly arrogant and short sighted when BYU went independent in football. Notre Dame they are NOT. In the modern football landscape you really have to have conference affiliation. I've never been convinced BYU was going to stay long term in the WCC. San Diego St. was already committed to go to the Big East in football only along with Boise St. before that conference imploded. I think SDSU was looking at Big West for other sports. I know I've mentioned before but I absolutely HATE what football has done to college sports in recent years. Darn near destroyed it. The WAC is a complete joke, the Mountain West is a decent conference in multiple sports but I guess it's a bit tenuous, it could collapse at any time if a few teams get picked off by other raiding conferences. Maybe Gonzaga, SDSU and some others should form a basketball only conference that includes all of the best teams out West that aren't in the Pac 12.

  12. #12

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    Here is what I was able to find for basketball budgets:

    MWC:

    http://www.bbstate.com/info/teams-hoopsbudget/_/MWC

    73 $4,448,245 New Mexico Lobos Albuquerque, NM The Pit Craig Neal (since 2013) Site, Schedule, School

    74 $4,432,238 San Diego State Aztecs San Diego, CA Viejas Arena Steve Fisher (since 1999) Site, Schedule, School

    89 $3,760,187 UNLV Rebels Las Vegas, NV Thomas & Mack Center Dave Rice (since 2011) Site, Schedule, School

    100 $3,041,051 Wyoming Cowboys Laramie, WY Arena-Auditorium Larry Shyatt (since 2011) Site, Schedule, School

    109 $2,650,118 Utah State Aggies Logan, UT Dee Glen Smith Spectrum Stew Morrill (since 1998) Site, Schedule, School

    123 $2,425,345 Colorado State Rams Fort Collins, CO Moby Arena Larry Eustachy (since 2012) Site, Schedule, School

    170 $1,804,214 Fresno State Bulldogs Fresno, CA Save Mart Center Rodney Terry (since 2011) Site, Schedule, School

    176 $1,729,154 Boise State Broncos Boise, ID Taco Bell Arena Leon Rice (since 2010) Site, Schedule, School

    211 $1,459,913 Nevada Wolf Pack Reno, NV Lawlor Events Center David Carter (since 2009) Site, Schedule, School

    214 $1,441,347 San Jose State Spartans San Jose, CA Event Center Dave Wojcik (since 2013) Site, Schedule, School


    WCC:

    http://www.bbstate.com/info/teams-hoopsbudget/_/WCC

    37 $6,138,269 Gonzaga Bulldogs Spokane, WA McCarthey Athletic Center Mark Few (since 1999) Site, Schedule, School

    51 $5,760,849 Brigham Young Cougars Provo, UT Marriott Center Dave Rose (since 2005) Site, Schedule, School

    103 $2,877,753 San Francisco Dons San Francisco, CA War Memorial Gymnasium Rex Walters (since 2008) Site, Schedule, School

    108 $2,673,460 Loyola Marymount Lions Los Angeles, CA Gersten Pavilion Max Good (since 2011) Site, Schedule, School

    114 $2,533,902 Saint Mary's Gaels Moraga, CA McKeon Pavilion Randy Bennett (since 2001) Site, Schedule, School

    122 $2,441,285 San Diego Toreros San Diego, CA Jenny Craig Pavilion Bill Grier (since 2007) Site, Schedule, School

    140 $2,183,706 Santa Clara Broncos Santa Clara, CA Leavey Center Kerry Keating (since 2007) Site, Schedule, School

    141 $2,169,272 Pepperdine Waves Malibu, CA Firestone Fieldhouse Marty Wilson (since 2011) Site, Schedule, School

    145 $2,127,678 Portland Pilots Portland, OR Chiles Center Eric Reveno (since 2006) Site, Schedule, School

    169 $1,836,357 Pacific Tigers Stockton, CA A.C. Spanos Center Ron Verlin (since 2013) Site, Schedule, School

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    The conference season is the low part of year, and the OOC is big.

    I agree. It would be nice to get more excited about the conference season. Right now it is just BYU and Saint Mary. No one else even challenges us.

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    If BYU bails the WCC will not find a replacement(s) that's any better than a 180+ RPI team. The league will be worse at 10 teams or 12 teams than it was when it was at 8 teams.

    If BYU bails and the league attempts to expand to 12 teams with three additional 180+ RPI teams, my prediction is that Gonzaga will put its foot down and threaten to move leagues. Not just to get into a better league, but to save the basketball program as we know it. It will be severely damaged, financially and otherwise, by a 12 team WCC. It will be an act of survival, not of convenience. Right now Gonzaga is in the right place, but the fans who think this program won't move leagues are kidding themselves if the university feels that the basketball program could go down the tank by staying in the league.

    That being said, I just don't see the league expanding to 12 teams. Just one team to replace BYU.
    Last edited by CDC84; 05-20-2014 at 12:33 PM.

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    Pac-13 - hoops only. That would be sweet.
    Go Zags!!!

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    The BYU athletic positioning has always been measured in conjunction with the positive use of the TV network. Football was the primary tool available in creating an initial solid independent schedule. The long range plan in place over the past dozen years did not foresee the major conference shake-ups of the last 5 years. On an immediate level is the BYU fans perception that BYU Basketball is no where near the caliber it had been for the previous 25 years. Remember, Arizona and ASU were in the WAC before the PAC 10(12). WAC basketball was an exciting conference and gorgeous basketball arenas followed BYUs Marriott 22,000 seat center of 1970(?)....the WCC just doesn't seem to have any long term appeal when measured against the BYU mission of athletics and BYU TV usage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tetonka Test View Post
    Here is what I was able to find for basketball budgets:

    MWC:

    http://www.bbstate.com/info/teams-hoopsbudget/_/MWC

    73 $4,448,245 New Mexico Lobos Albuquerque, NM The Pit Craig Neal (since 2013) Site, Schedule, School

    74 $4,432,238 San Diego State Aztecs San Diego, CA Viejas Arena Steve Fisher (since 1999) Site, Schedule, School

    89 $3,760,187 UNLV Rebels Las Vegas, NV Thomas & Mack Center Dave Rice (since 2011) Site, Schedule, School

    100 $3,041,051 Wyoming Cowboys Laramie, WY Arena-Auditorium Larry Shyatt (since 2011) Site, Schedule, School

    109 $2,650,118 Utah State Aggies Logan, UT Dee Glen Smith Spectrum Stew Morrill (since 1998) Site, Schedule, School

    123 $2,425,345 Colorado State Rams Fort Collins, CO Moby Arena Larry Eustachy (since 2012) Site, Schedule, School

    170 $1,804,214 Fresno State Bulldogs Fresno, CA Save Mart Center Rodney Terry (since 2011) Site, Schedule, School

    176 $1,729,154 Boise State Broncos Boise, ID Taco Bell Arena Leon Rice (since 2010) Site, Schedule, School

    211 $1,459,913 Nevada Wolf Pack Reno, NV Lawlor Events Center David Carter (since 2009) Site, Schedule, School

    214 $1,441,347 San Jose State Spartans San Jose, CA Event Center Dave Wojcik (since 2013) Site, Schedule, School


    WCC:

    http://www.bbstate.com/info/teams-hoopsbudget/_/WCC

    37 $6,138,269 Gonzaga Bulldogs Spokane, WA McCarthey Athletic Center Mark Few (since 1999) Site, Schedule, School

    51 $5,760,849 Brigham Young Cougars Provo, UT Marriott Center Dave Rose (since 2005) Site, Schedule, School

    103 $2,877,753 San Francisco Dons San Francisco, CA War Memorial Gymnasium Rex Walters (since 2008) Site, Schedule, School

    108 $2,673,460 Loyola Marymount Lions Los Angeles, CA Gersten Pavilion Max Good (since 2011) Site, Schedule, School

    114 $2,533,902 Saint Mary's Gaels Moraga, CA McKeon Pavilion Randy Bennett (since 2001) Site, Schedule, School

    122 $2,441,285 San Diego Toreros San Diego, CA Jenny Craig Pavilion Bill Grier (since 2007) Site, Schedule, School

    140 $2,183,706 Santa Clara Broncos Santa Clara, CA Leavey Center Kerry Keating (since 2007) Site, Schedule, School

    141 $2,169,272 Pepperdine Waves Malibu, CA Firestone Fieldhouse Marty Wilson (since 2011) Site, Schedule, School

    145 $2,127,678 Portland Pilots Portland, OR Chiles Center Eric Reveno (since 2006) Site, Schedule, School

    169 $1,836,357 Pacific Tigers Stockton, CA A.C. Spanos Center Ron Verlin (since 2013) Site, Schedule, School
    Great stats, really eye opening. If you had told me that Portland and Pacific spend more money on basketball than Boise State, Nevada, Fresno State and well - I might have believed San Jose State, but the others, I would have laughed.

    I have never understood why Portland doesn't make a serious investment into athletics. Great school, great city, decent facilities, never understood why they are a bottom feeder. Also, SCU used to be a powerhouse in baseball, women's soccer, several other sports and have largely punted. Weird.

    Don't know the answer but I agree with Angelo. If the WCC loses BYU and picks up teams to get to 12 at the equivalent of Seattle U - GU is gone, somewhere. I also think it's safe to say SDSU will never be invited to the WCC. If we're going to do that, why not just invite UNLV and SDSU?
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    If BYU leaves, and I have always thought they were short-timers in the WCC, then the WCC should drop a bottom-feeder team and continue as they were before. Goodbye Pacific, we barely knew ye!

    5 or 10 years ago I was a strong advocate for GU basketball leaving the WCC in favor of the Mountain West or a similar conference. But apparently that would require all non-basketball sports at GU to either try to stay in the WCC (unlikely I think) or go independent, which would probably be a disaster. Little '75 played on the women's golf team at GU for several years and had a great time even though their team record was probably the worst in the history of golf. I think I would hate to consign all non-BB sports at GU to the dustbin of history.

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    Seems a lot of this unfortunately is out of our control. BYU can be expected to represent what is best for their overall programs, and if leaving the WCC is it then I'm not sure what will stop them. On the other hand, other WCC basketball schools will be more hesitant to add schools just to "make Gonzaga better." BYU leaving honestly gives GU the ammunition it needs to take an amazing opportunity down the line that they would not otherwise have taken if the WCC was strong and continued to be strong. Time, as they say, will tell.
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    This discussion is why the WCC had no business adding Pacific (or anybody else) 2 years ago. It should have waited to see if BYU would stay put. Practically and legally speaking the WCC would not be able to drop Pacific and return to 8 teams. We would be stuck adding a bottom feeder like SU. If that is the choice, I would stay remain at 9, even if it causes an unbalanced schedule. At least that way we could get a couple more nonleague games on the schedule.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DixieZag View Post
    Also, SCU used to be a powerhouse in baseball, women's soccer, several other sports and have largely punted. Weird.
    Just to chime in on that point, Santa Clara was certainly a power in most sports prior to the mid to early 2000's. The change of heart happened when the administration decided to put all their eggs into the tech-boom-silicon-valley appeal basket and step away from athletics. Check out our website. We're the Jesuit University in the silicon valley now. No mention of the fact that this is the oldest university in California and owns a rich history. They decided to live in the here and now, and step away from their tradition and history, and sports was certainly no longer part of the program.

    Prior to 2005, Santa Clara had never finished lower than 5th in baseball in 65 years of playing conference baseball, and had finished 5th only 3 times. All of the sudden, they were a bottom feeder, despite a new facility. Women's soccer has remained a perennial NCAA tournament team, but Men's, which had won the NCAA tournament in 1989 has fallen off. Volleyball was a final 4 team around 2005 and has since also fallen off. Basketball made 11 NCAA trips, including some very good years, but hasn't been since 1996. Baseball has a huge history- 48 major leaguers, 34 all-americans, but as I mentioned, have been putrid since 2005 (slight renaissance this season).

    Santa Clara's football team had a tremendous history, including 2 Sugar Bowl victories and an Orange Bowl victory, but by the early 90's the administration had allowed it to wither all the way away.

    Santa Clara's administration never understood how good of thing they had going, and refused to water the garden, as it were.

    This last last year, Santa Clara voted to approve an increased athletics budget which will increase the budgets of all sports and allow the teams to schedule and recruit more aggressively. The changes can already be seen. Santa Clara's longtime legendary soccer coach, Jerry Smith, turned down an offer to go to Notre Dame not but a few months ago, and he cited institutional level changes toward the importance of athletics as a main reason he chose to stay. We all no notre dame is a school committed to spending on sports, and it says a lot that he chose not to go. He had often complained that funding was too low at SC. A few days later, the AD announced that, for the first time, there would be a director of women's soccer operations.

    From what I understand, the men's basketball team will get around $1 million more dollars a year coming up. I hope they aren't simply throwing money at the problem, but using it in a concerted fashion. The Leavey Center is certainly a top half of the WCC Facility, and yet, look at the teams Santa Clara has coming to play them every year. We've rarely seen a power conference team in Leavey for a long time, and almost never two in the same year. Scheduling is expensive, and for years it has seemed that Santa Clara has been happy to have a basketball program that graduates its players, results be damned. And we have the highest APR score, but that doesn't ultimately get you much.

    The point I'm trying to illustrate is that Santa Clara has been a facade for as long as a decade now- the teams have a long history, and nice facilities, but have been operating with a shoestring budget. However, Santa Clara, as a institution, has a lot of financial, historical, and influential weight to throw around, and it seems that they are choosing to make an investment in sports, and hopefully the results will manifest themselves and raise the profile of the WCC. Santa Clara has nearly a billion dollar endowment, dwarfing many WCC schools. It was not but 12 or so years ago that SCU was scheduling out of conference games with North Carolina at Oracle, Kansas at HP, and other games at HP. If they choose, and it seems they have, Santa Clara may no longer be "punting" as you put it. Let's hope so, for the entire WCC's sake.
    Last edited by SCU; 05-20-2014 at 04:22 PM. Reason: Grammar

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    I believe that there are school presidents, administrators and board members at some WCC schools who would downgrade their programs to D-2 (or lower) in a heartbeat if they could figure out a way to do it while saving face.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seacatfan View Post
    Maybe Gonzaga, SDSU and some others should form a basketball only conference that includes all of the best teams out West that aren't in the Pac 12.
    I do like this idea!!!
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    Interesting perspective from the SCU fan, that must be frustrating. How do you feel about coach Keating? He came in with some hoopla but to me it seems like he's accomplished nothing so far. Is his seat warm yet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SCU View Post
    Just to chime in on that point, Santa Clara was certainly a power in most sports prior to the mid to early 2000's. The change of heart happened when the administration decided to put all their eggs into the tech-boom-silicon-valley appeal basket and step away from athletics. Check out our website. We're the Jesuit University in the silicon valley now. No mention of the fact that this is the oldest university in California and owns a rich history. They decided to live in the here and now, and step away from their tradition and history, and sports was certainly no longer part of the program.

    Prior to 2005, Santa Clara had never finished lower than 5th in baseball in 65 years of playing conference baseball, and had finished 5th only 3 times. All of the sudden, they were a bottom feeder, despite a new facility. Women's soccer has remained a perennial NCAA tournament team, but Men's, which had won the NCAA tournament in 1989 has fallen off. Volleyball was a final 4 team around 2005 and has since also fallen off. Basketball made 11 NCAA trips, including some very good years, but hasn't been since 1996. Baseball has a huge history- 48 major leaguers, 34 all-americans, but as I mentioned, have been putrid since 2005 (slight renaissance this season).

    Santa Clara's football team had a tremendous history, including 2 Sugar Bowl victories and an Orange Bowl victory, but by the early 90's the administration had allowed it to wither all the way away.

    Santa Clara's administration never understood how good of thing they had going, and refused to water the garden, as it were.

    This last last year, Santa Clara voted to approve an increased athletics budget which will increase the budgets of all sports and allow the teams to schedule and recruit more aggressively. The changes can already be seen. Santa Clara's longtime legendary soccer coach, Jerry Smith, turned down an offer to go to Notre Dame not but a few months ago, and he cited institutional level changes toward the importance of athletics as a main reason he chose to stay. We all no notre dame is a school committed to spending on sports, and it says a lot that he chose not to go. He had often complained that funding was too low at SC. A few days later, the AD announced that, for the first time, there would be a director of women's soccer operations.

    From what I understand, the men's basketball team will get around $1 million more dollars a year coming up. I hope they aren't simply throwing money at the problem, but using it in a concerted fashion. The Leavey Center is certainly a top half of the WCC Facility, and yet, look at the teams Santa Clara has coming to play them every year. We've rarely seen a power conference team in Leavey for a long time, and almost never two in the same year. Scheduling is expensive, and for years it has seemed that Santa Clara has been happy to have a basketball program that graduates its players, results be damned. And we have the highest APR score, but that doesn't ultimately get you much.

    The point I'm trying to illustrate is that Santa Clara has been a facade for as long as a decade now- the teams have a long history, and nice facilities, but have been operating with a shoestring budget. However, Santa Clara, as a institution, has a lot of financial, historical, and influential weight to throw around, and it seems that they are choosing to make an investment in sports, and hopefully the results will manifest themselves and raise the profile of the WCC. Santa Clara has nearly a billion dollar endowment, dwarfing many WCC schools. It was not but 12 or so years ago that SCU was scheduling out of conference games with North Carolina at Oracle, Kansas at HP, and other games at HP. If they choose, and it seems they have, Santa Clara may no longer be "punting" as you put it. Let's hope so, for the entire WCC's sake.
    This is just a fantastic first post and welcome, join more discussions, definitely.

    Point of order, in fairness to me, I did say "several others" b/c I knew there was a rich athletic history, it was just baseball and women's soccer were the two I was most familiar with.

    I am very happy to hear that there is perhaps a new commitment being started. As someone who lived in the bay area for a 3 year period, it was always beyond my explanation how a school with a larger student body, richer endowment, more expansive programs and *cough* a little better academics than the other three there (little better, Nevada Don and MJC) could fall so far behind. I know they put a lot of eggs in the Keating basket and maybe the mediocrity is not all on him - he certainly got the team up to play us.

    Great post, welcome and stick around.
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