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Thread: If not next year... When?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartruff1 View Post
    I simply do not understand why anyone would follow a team that always disappoints them with a coach they have no confidence in... ? Makes no sense to me.
    Because some here follow and support the program uber alles and are not part of a cult of personality. The players, staff, etc. are cogs to be respected and cheered. But they are dispensable and transient. GU is the font.
    Last edited by jazzdelmar; 04-22-2014 at 09:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seacatfan View Post
    There is some sleight of hand going on with some of this discussion. Obviously schools like Kentucky, UNC, Duke, Arizona etc. draw recruits that are never going to show up at Gonzaga. But coaches like Pitino and Calipari got to the Final 4 long before they were at blue blood schools and with rosters that were not loaded with future NBA players. There have been the recent examples of George Mason, VCU, Butler and Wichita St. You don't have to have 6 McDonald's All Americans on your roster to make a deep run. As has been pointed out elsewhere, UConn had ZERO McD's AA players on their roster this year. Gonzaga has had some very talented players pass through and yet a deep run continues to elude Few. Maybe he'll break through eventually, and maybe he won't. Coaches like Gary Williams and Bo Ryan had to wait a long time to get to a Final 4. Others like John Chaney, who won a bunch of games and was considered a very good coach, never made it.
    I would never trade what Calipari did at UMASS (which officially he did NOT do) for what GU has been able to do over the past 20 years. One ran a sprint while juiced up on illegal substances while the other ran a marathon the right way. No comparison. I'd rather have the GU story than the UMASS story.

    None of the far superior coaches were able to do what Few has done at a mid-major. The small schools were stepping stones. With the exception of VCU, they all should be narratives that end with a true GU fan saying "thank God for Mark Few."

    I understand why someone would like Calipari's story as far as national championships goes. Look what he has been able to do. But I'm not too concerned with Mark Few's story vs Calipari's story. I'm a GU fan. So the proper narratives to compare are GU vs UMASS. Would you trade their past 15 years for our past 15 years? Of course not. If Few had left GU and gone to a different, larger program with more resources would he have done better? I don't care to know the answer to that because I went to GU not Mark Few University.

    For what Few has done. Stayed at a small school in a small conference (Smart was able to get his school to jump up to the A10), no one holds a candle to what he has accomplished. Would I want the next Calipari to come into GU, violate a bunch of rules, take us to a final four, and then have our program in the c ra pper for the most of the next twenty years? No thanks.





    And to the original point of this thread. Next year we will have our most talented team during the Few era. Better than the 2009 team on paper. That team lost Sacre to an injury. This team could lose someone to an injury. In basketball any team can lose to a decent opponent on any given night (especially since the three pointer was added). So, we will make the tournament and we will be one of ten teams or so that has a realistic chance, due to the talent on the squad, of winning a national championship.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    Because some here follow and support the program uber alles and are not part of a cult of personality. The players, staff, etc. are cogs to be respected and cheered. But they are dispensable. GU is the font.
    Well, you might be right but I have a different view. I don't expect Few to change or leave in the next 5 years or so. When he does leave, I expect the program will revert to a mid level WCC Team.

    In any case, my time is short so I have no time to wait for something to happen that hasn't happened for 15 years. If it was important for me to follow a team that plays on the 2nd weekend, (it is not) I would pick one that has a reasonable chance to do that...the usual suspects. I don't bet long shots , and I think Gonzaga is a long shot but others may have a different view.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartruff1 View Post
    Well, you might be right but I have a different view. I don't expect Few to change or leave in the next 5 years or so. When he does leave, I expect the program will revert to a mid level WCC Team.

    In any case, my time is short so I have no time to wait for something to happen that hasn't happened for 15 years. If it was important for me to follow a team that plays on the 2nd weekend, (it is not) I would pick one that has a reasonable chance to do that...the usual suspects. I don't bet long shots , and I think Gonzaga is a long shot but others may have a different view.
    Since Tommy Lloyd is the coach in waiting I think Gonzaga will be in perfectly good hands, and will not fall to a mid level WCC team.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    Because some here follow and support the program uber alles and are not part of a cult of personality. The players, staff, etc. are cogs to be respected and cheered. But they are dispensable. GU is the font.
    VERY well said Jazz. I simply don't understand why so many here find it SO unacceptable to expect the coach and staff to improve (much as we expect players to improve).

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartruff1 View Post
    Well, you might be right but I have a different view. I don't expect Few to change or leave in the next 5 years or so. When he does leave, I expect the program will revert to a mid level WCC Team.

    In any case, my time is short so I have no time to wait for something to happen that hasn't happened for 15 years. If it was important for me to follow a team that plays on the 2nd weekend, (it is not) I would pick one that has a reasonable chance to do that...the usual suspects. I don't bet long shots , and I think Gonzaga is a long shot but others may have a different view.
    I 100% respect your opinion, Bart. With the events of the last week or so, maybe we all get our wish......And I concur that assuming Tom is the heir the keys are in good hands.

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    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    Because some here follow and support the program uber alles and are not part of a cult of personality. The players, staff, etc. are cogs to be respected and cheered. But they are dispensable and transient. GU is the font.
    You are oddly correct. I assume you are trying, but once again, failing, to place a clever dig. But like the .100 hitter you are, the meaning of the dig, like your very being, continually comes back to to bite you. Why anyone buys your propaganda is the only puzzle here. You can't even dig far enough to make sense. Just like you yell at the clouds and pretend you do.

    uber alles
    uber alles (correctly written in German "ueber alles") has nothing to do with the Nazis, but was a line of a poem written in 1841 which was used for the German National Anthem. It does not translate as "above all" (that would be "ueber allen") but rather "more than anything else", as in "ich liebe Dich ueber alles in der Welt" (I love you more than anything else in the world). A misleading translation was purposely chosen by the Allies during the second world war for PROPAGANDA purposes.
    Go TEAM Zags !

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    Well done Gam.

    And more than anything else I want Gonzaga to be Gonzaga. If winning a national championship means becoming UNLV - forget it. But, I can want GU to become Stanford or Duke instead. That's far more complicated, involves funding, school size, location, markets and all that. But, I can want to be moving forward cautiously to not lose the real essence and occasionally critique the coach(s) while also still firmly believing we've got the right guys for the job - which I do.

    I can rail away at Few for being passive at times, not taking the initiative and letting the kids with the most potential make some mistakes without a leash - while also holding horror at the thought of him leaving. It's actually really easy, I think 95% of us feel the same.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamagin View Post
    +1



    You are oddly correct. I assume you are trying, but once again, failing, to place a clever dig. But like the .100 hitter you are, the meaning of the dig, like your very being, continually comes back to to bite you. Why anyone buys your propaganda is the only puzzle here. You can't even dig far enough to make sense. Just like you yell at the clouds and pretend you do.

    uber alles
    uber alles (correctly written in German "ueber alles") has nothing to do with the Nazis, but was a line of a poem written in 1841 which was used for the German National Anthem. It does not translate as "above all" (that would be "ueber allen") but rather "more than anything else", as in "ich liebe Dich ueber alles in der Welt" (I love you more than anything else in the world). A misleading translation was purposely chosen by the Allies during the second world war for PROPAGANDA purposes.
    What in the world are you talking about? What dig? Besides my bad German my post was sincere. You got some issues, man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mgadfly View Post
    I would never trade what Calipari did at UMASS (which officially he did NOT do) for what GU has been able to do over the past 20 years. One ran a sprint while juiced up on illegal substances while the other ran a marathon the right way. No comparison. I'd rather have the GU story than the UMASS story.

    None of the far superior coaches were able to do what Few has done at a mid-major. The small schools were stepping stones. With the exception of VCU, they all should be narratives that end with a true GU fan saying "thank God for Mark Few."

    I understand why someone would like Calipari's story as far as national championships goes. Look what he has been able to do. But I'm not too concerned with Mark Few's story vs Calipari's story. I'm a GU fan. So the proper narratives to compare are GU vs UMASS. Would you trade their past 15 years for our past 15 years? Of course not. If Few had left GU and gone to a different, larger program with more resources would he have done better? I don't care to know the answer to that because I went to GU not Mark Few University.

    For what Few has done. Stayed at a small school in a small conference (Smart was able to get his school to jump up to the A10), no one holds a candle to what he has accomplished. Would I want the next Calipari to come into GU, violate a bunch of rules, take us to a final four, and then have our program in the c ra pper for the most of the next twenty years? No thanks.





    And to the original point of this thread. Next year we will have our most talented team during the Few era. Better than the 2009 team on paper. That team lost Sacre to an injury. This team could lose someone to an injury. In basketball any team can lose to a decent opponent on any given night (especially since the three pointer was added). So, we will make the tournament and we will be one of ten teams or so that has a realistic chance, due to the talent on the squad, of winning a national championship.

    You make some good points but I think you're missing my overall point. Lots of good coaches have gotten to a Final 4 at a relatively young age, and they've done it at mid major or lower tier BCS schools. I mentioned Calipari, but I mentioned a handful of other coaches/programs as well and you're kinda obsessing with Calipari.

    I am in agreement with you, I'm glad Few hasn't run afoul of the NCAA and gotten Gonzaga on probation. And he is very much the exception in staying put at a place like GU rather than using it as a stepping stone to something supposedly bigger and better. There are very mixed results for coaches doing that. We all know what happened to Monson. Smart's predecessor (Anthony Grant) was quite successful at VCU, but his seat is getting fairly hot at Alabama as he has not had much success there. But then there's someone like Bill Self, who did well at Tulsa, then Illinois, then Kansas. You absolutely never know how it's going to turn out when a coach from a mid major moves up to a BCS school. And to answer a rhetorical question, I would not trade what UMass has done for what GU has done.

    To the last point, I am not willing to say next year's Zags are the most talented ever, until I actually see them. We have quite a few known commodities, but a lot of the projections for next year are based on newcomers. Counting a lot of chickens before they hatch. We need to see how Wiltjer, Sabonis, Perkins, Melson and possibly Alberts actually perform in a Zags uniform, something NO ONE has actually witnessed yet. Also I think most fans are assuming there will be fairly significant improvements by Karnowski and Dranginis, which is not a given. I know the 2008-2009 team was loaded with talent, I watched them play. I need to see the 2014-2015 Zags play for comparison's sake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    What in the world are you talking about? What dig? Besides my bad German my post was sincere. You got some issues, man.
    Actually, on this one, I think he was being diplomatic and not trying to dig at anyone - just making a point. It is not "above all else" be the GU we always knew, it's just "More than anything else." It's a subtle distinction that I like and I think you share.

    Edit to Add: Seacat? I agree about certain coaches making mistakes either way. But, I think you can't look at this situation without looking at it with Maynard's "Preacher's Kid" observations. Few's Dad stayed at the same small church throughout his career (still there and retired, I think). It is just in Few's DNA that you take care of who you've been assigned and there are good/bad sides to it, but in the end, I find it laudable compared to the alternative.
    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
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    Somewhat off topic but about if not now...when...

    There have been a few mid major programs that never lost a beat with a " coach in waiting" following a very successful coach but I suspect a lot more had a problem maintaining the same level....

    Heck...there are some in here that believe Few has failed to meet levels that Monson achieved. Go figure.

    It is difficult to make accurate predictions...especially if they are about the future. I suppose if you are young, you can live in the future, I have to live in the moment.

    I do like the idea of being in a cult...sounds like a lot of fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DixieZag View Post
    Well done Gam.

    And more than anything else I want Gonzaga to be Gonzaga. If winning a national championship means becoming UNLV - forget it. But, I can want GU to become Stanford or Duke instead. That's far more complicated, involves funding, school size, location, markets and all that. But, I can want to be moving forward cautiously to not lose the real essence and occasionally critique the coach(s) while also still firmly believing we've got the right guys for the job - which I do.

    I can rail away at Few for being passive at times, not taking the initiative and letting the kids with the most potential make some mistakes without a leash - while also holding horror at the thought of him leaving. It's actually really easy, I think 95% of us feel the same.
    I gotta jump on this. Duke is not the squeaky clean, shining example of everything that is right with college athletics that Dick Vitale and all the media want you to believe they are. What they are is teflon, somehow nothing sticks to them.

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    OK Dix, I see that. It's pretty subtle. My attempt was to position GU as the font from which all this flows. Im not sure what his preamble -- .100 hitter etc -- was all about though. Seemed pejorative to me. Maybe u can help me on that as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdelmar View Post
    OK Dix, I see that. It's pretty subtle. My attempt was to position GU as the font from which all this flows. Im not sure what his preamble -- .100 hitter etc -- was all about though. Seemed pejorative to me. Maybe u can help me on that as well.
    Not really. I just take the part I like and agree with and ignore the other parts.

    Quick story; That's what Kennedy did in the Cuban missile crises. He put the blockade up and waited for their answer. The Soviets sent one letter saying they were backing down with certain conditions and ten minutes later sent one saying they weren't and didn't reference the first one. JFK and RFK decided they'd just respond to the one they liked. Seemed to work then.
    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
    Mark Twain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DixieZag View Post
    Not really. I just take the part I like and agree with and ignore the other parts.

    Quick story; That's what Kennedy did in the Cuban missile crises. He put the blockade up and waited for their answer. The Soviets sent one letter saying they were backing down with certain conditions and ten minutes later sent one saying they weren't and didn't reference the first one. JFK and RFK decided they'd just respond to the one they liked. Seemed to work then.

    Big help you are, Dix. I revered JFK and volunteered and voted for RFK and, believe me, Gamagin is no Kennedy.

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    Always be careful for what you wish for, I know, I lost several million on something I wished for.
    Gonzaga and Mark Few has a formula going, much of that demands that he be conservative and not take big chances or rock the boat. This approach can be irritating and bothers me at times, but it is the closest thing possible for obtaining success.

    Few started out with a handful of good players and by coaching a team approach with good fundamentals he was able to win where others might not have. The E8 gave them some publicity and got a few kids interested. He strung together a series of wins that made GU stand out as a mid major and they continued to be the darlings of America. This gave them a good TV contract and maximized their exposure nationally. In the process, people got to see what Gonzaga was all about, good academics and principled in how they operated and treated the the student athlete. By this slow improving process and not taking chances the team has made incremental progress and after 10 years has finally gotten to the point that the real athletic kids will now consider coming to Gonzaga.
    The recent set of Bigs like Ambassador Turriof, Daye, Sacrae, DD and KO are paying off as the people are coming to believe that it is a path into the NBA, this is huge. KO's draft and success will pay untold dividends for the school. Another step in long term success has been achieved by having guys reach the NBA.

    In my opinion few has finally reached critical mass with his teams that will sustain GU in the future. We get good teams to play us and even at GU. We are seeing athletes list GU as on their list, but more important we are finally starting to get the more elite athlete. What we are seeing on the floor for GU could only be dreamed about 5 years ago.

    It takes time to build a dynasty, especially if risk is not an option or failure will be too big a reset to tolerate or possibly recover from. I believe few has a few shortcomings as a coach, but he too is learning and getting better in my opinion.
    What few brings is a man with a vision and a formula for achieving it that appears first class in all respects. If Few should move on, Tommy may very well understand that vision and will be able to take us to the next level, however, there are no assurances and the chances are it will go up or go down as a program. Be prepared for the down as the Up is not assured. I still see constant steps of progress and the ceiling has not been reached in my opinion, so I say hands of.
    Go Zags
    Last edited by Baseline; 04-22-2014 at 01:35 PM. Reason: spelling
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baseline View Post

    but more important we are finally starting to get the more elite athlete. What we are seeing on the floor for GU could only be dreamed about 5 years ago.
    Are you talking about how high of profile the players are, or actual athleticism? I really don't see GU bringing in elite athletes. Gordon and Hollis-Jefferson from Arizona were elite athletes, the Zags had nobody that could handle those 2 this year and I really don't think any of the newcomers are up to it either. Wiltjer is a good player no doubt, but athlete is not the first word that comes to mind with him. I have yet to see Perkins, Melson or Alberts, maybe they really are a new breed of athlete for GU, but none of those guys could guard a 6-7 or 6-9 long armed jumping jack. I also don't know specifically about Sabonis, but I would guess he's more skilled than athletic.

    Anyway the Zags have had plenty of really good athletes previously, I'd actually argue the roster is less athletic now than it was at some other points in the last 10 years. At one point they had Pargo, Gray, Downs, Heytvelt and Daye all here at the same time, there's no way anyone is going to convince me the '14-'15 Zags are more athletic than that.

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    Excellent post, Baseline.
    Go Zags!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DixieZag View Post
    Actually, on this one, I think he was being diplomatic and not trying to dig at anyone - just making a point. It is not "above all else" be the GU we always knew, it's just "More than anything else." It's a subtle distinction that I like and I think you share.

    Edit to Add: Seacat? I agree about certain coaches making mistakes either way. But, I think you can't look at this situation without looking at it with Maynard's "Preacher's Kid" observations. Few's Dad stayed at the same small church throughout his career (still there and retired, I think). It is just in Few's DNA that you take care of who you've been assigned and there are good/bad sides to it, but in the end, I find it laudable compared to the alternative.
    For clarity- those "observations" by me are strictly to explain his apparent uptightness and discomfort in the public eye (admittedly a projection of my own similar life experience).

    And I do think that characteristic can filter down to the team in big games and negatively affect the outcome at times. But that's a double edged sword, and on balance, I can't imagine that another coach would accomplish what he has done at a school like Gonzaga, at least not in the modern era. And to my knowledge, none has.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DixieZag View Post
    Edit to Add: Seacat? I agree about certain coaches making mistakes either way. But, I think you can't look at this situation without looking at it with Maynard's "Preacher's Kid" observations. Few's Dad stayed at the same small church throughout his career (still there and retired, I think). It is just in Few's DNA that you take care of who you've been assigned and there are good/bad sides to it, but in the end, I find it laudable compared to the alternative.
    It's hard to know what would've happened if Few had left at one of numerous opportunities to take on a higher profile program. It's definitely benefited GU that he's stayed, but it's possible it's benefited Few as well. I have a hard time seeing him thrive in a more high pressure, media scrutinized BCS job. Anyway he's in a situation where he's successful and comfortable, so it's a win-win for Few and the program.

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    College basketball is what it is - part talent, part athleticism, part coaching, part team chemistry, part fans and a goodly dose of how the ball bounces. And, as for the ball bouncing, that could be an infinite number of cool things (what happens on the team plane, a joke someone plays on a teammate, whatever......) - how a team feels about a game and the sport really matters .... it's all difficult to quantify. Given the makeup of the team next season I see the biggest plus being the strength of the non-conference games. In playing Arizona, UCLA and others the Zags will be playing at an elite level more frequently. When the Zags knock off some of these teams it will do wonders for team confidence AND it will really show who on the team can produce when the competition is strong. I'm personally equally as excited about next season's schedule as I am about next season's team - I'm doubly excited in that respect. I not only expect the team to do well I think the challenge and talent will also bring out the best in Few. It's always good to nail down your own conference and it is no easy task. If you can also begin to put the fear into non-conference teams then the fun really begins. I'll know the season is going to be REALLY special if Mt. K comes off summer with a FT% over 70 right from the get-go!
    Go Zags!

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    "If not next year, when?"

    The year after that. Presuming Karnowski & Wiltjer stay.

    Apologys in advance if someone else had this idea....I didn't have time to read the responses above. E8 next year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baseline View Post
    Always be careful for what you wish for, I know, I lost several million on something I wished for.
    Gonzaga and Mark Few has a formula going, much of that demands that he be conservative and not take big chances or rock the boat. This approach can be irritating and bothers me at times, but it is the closest thing possible for obtaining success.

    Few started out with a handful of good players and by coaching a team approach with good fundamentals he was able to win where others might not have. The E8 gave them some publicity and got a few kids interested. He strung together a series of wins that made GU stand out as a mid major and they continued to be the darlings of America. This gave them a good TV contract and maximized their exposure nationally. In the process, people got to see what Gonzaga was all about, good academics and principled in how they operated and treated the the student athlete. By this slow improving process and not taking chances the team has made incremental progress and after 10 years has finally gotten to the point that the real athletic kids will now consider coming to Gonzaga.
    The recent set of Bigs like Ambassador Turriof, Daye, Sacrae, DD and KO are paying off as the people are coming to believe that it is a path into the NBA, this is huge. KO's draft and success will pay untold dividends for the school. Another step in long term success has been achieved by having guys reach the NBA.

    In my opinion few has finally reached critical mass with his teams that will sustain GU in the future. We get good teams to play us and even at GU. We are seeing athletes list GU as on their list, but more important we are finally starting to get the more elite athlete. What we are seeing on the floor for GU could only be dreamed about 5 years ago.

    It takes time to build a dynasty, especially if risk is not an option or failure will be too big a reset to tolerate or possibly recover from. I believe few has a few shortcomings as a coach, but he too is learning and getting better in my opinion.
    What few brings is a man with a vision and a formula for achieving it that appears first class in all respects. If Few should move on, Tommy may very well understand that vision and will be able to take us to the next level, however, there are no assurances and the chances are it will go up or go down as a program. Be prepared for the down as the Up is not assured. I still see constant steps of progress and the ceiling has not been reached in my opinion, so I say hands of.
    Go Zags
    100% agree. Few is not a riverboat gambler by any stretch of the imagination. I think if he were not a basketball coach he would be a baseball manager because he knows the percentages and plays them every time.
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