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Thread: Exactly Why WCC Made a Big Mistake Eliminating Double Bye for 1 and 2 Seeds

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    Default Exactly Why WCC Made a Big Mistake Eliminating Double Bye for 1 and 2 Seeds

    1 Seed Gonzaga and 2 Seed BYU have been rewarded (sarcasm) with opportunities to play games against Santa Clara and LMU, respectively.

    These games provide ZERO upside for both teams. Wins for Gonzaga and BYU might actually drive down their RPIs. Losses dramatically decrease odds at an at-large berth for both teams. Santa Clara has an RPI of 206, while LMU has an RPI of 179.

    Reasons why our game against Santa Clara stinks:
    RPI will go down, win or lose
    Santa Clara contested the Zags both times this season, and for some reason, they match up well against us
    Tough to beat any team three times in one season
    Santa Clara has a game under their belt in that arena and are used to rims and shooting backdrop
    Santa Clara gets a day of rest on Friday
    Santa Clara gets to play loose; with everything to gain and nothing to lose

    I surely hope that both Gonzaga and BYU win and make this a moot point, but I'm frustrated nonetheless. The top teams need to be rewarded for their regular conference season effort. At the very least, why don't they reseed so the highest remaining seed plays the top seed in the quarterfinals (i.e. Zags should be playing LMU) ???!!!???

    The WCC conference does not benefit from this format, either. Each year, the WCC has 2-3 teams with a shot at an at-large. The more teams into the dance equals more money and exposure for the conference. Why not use a structure that gives your conference the best odds to get multiple bids? I will go so far as to say that if GU did not have this game against Santa Clara, they would be in no matter what (loss to SMC in semifinal does not hurt their profile enough to be left out). For all we know, the Zags could play very well on Saturday but still lose to a Santa Clara team that goes 10-15 from three. As a fan, I do not want to be sweating out selection Sunday under this scenario. Again, hopefully the Zags continue their positive play and make this a moot point!

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    You forgot something, TV$.
    Birddog

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    Also don't forget it increases the chances for one if the second tier teams to get in. They would love that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Birddog View Post
    You forgot something, TV$.

    Birddog, your point is well taken. It would be interesting to see how the TV dollars stack up to the dollars of having one team in the dance instead of two. Both considerations, for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Birddog View Post
    You forgot something, TV$.
    Moving the championship game to Tuesday night is great for ESPN. Usually, that's a dead night for them, even as March Madness commences. For the lower seeds, the "gauntle" is no more, i.e. not having to play 3 games in 3 days. LMU & Santa Clara have today off to get ready for their next game. If they can pull off an upset, they get Sunday off, thanks to BYU.

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    While I was in favor of the "double bye" into the semi's .... I believe there's a reason that no other Conference (out of the 32 who play D1 hoops) has that system. The current change went into effect because of the Bay Area California schools .... and the desire to "level" the playing field. Doesn't make sense vis a vis the points raised in the OP, but that's the deal.

    That being said, rpiforecast says if the Zags win their next 3, they'll end up with an RPI of 12. Sure, there'll only be two wins over RPI top 50 .... but it's my belief if Gonzaga is 28-6 with an RPI of 12 they'll get Spokane.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gozags99 View Post
    Birddog, your point is well taken. It would be interesting to see how the TV dollars stack up to the dollars of having one team in the dance instead of two. Both considerations, for sure.
    That's a good question and I for one don't trust the WCC brass enough to think that they did the math. Oh well.
    Birddog

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    It is disappointing but hardly a surprise. I was surprised when the league started protecting the top seeds at all. In their defense, the WCC tournament has always been intended as a clean slate for all the teams. Anyone who is set on winning the tournament, can. And that's what the league organizers want. Not to punish the season winner, but to lift the spirits of the not so successful teams.

    Gonzaga used to be one of those bottom feeders. In 1994-95, GU did not win the WCC regular season. But thanks to John Rillie shooting 60% from 3-point range and scoring 90+ points in three games, we won the tournament. So Gonzaga has benefited, albeit once, from a non-protected format.

    Bottom line is I agree with you. The top seeds should be more protected more than this. But the WCC is, has been, and will be fickle.
    Gonzaga Basketball
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    If I was king...the Conference Champion would get the automatic and wouldn't play and the others could play for a at large...or....the Conference Champion would as least get a bye to the Championship game....but of course money is king......and the real money is the TV money...

    The golden rule is that those that have the gold, make the rules and drama sells.

    Like Few said...it is what it is.

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    I like the extra game. It's better than practicing, at least most years. If the Zags win they get a day off on Sunday; so that's good. My problem with the WCC was that it let Pacific into the conference. What was the good in that program being in the WCC. I thought, at the beginning of the year that they might be a good team/program. However they have been so disappointing, and they had a senior led team. So look how bad they will be next year.

    And look how they took two OOC games away from the Zags. Because Gonzaga is in the WCC, they need quality ooc wins.

    enugh said

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    Go Zags!!! The Best Is Yet To Come!!!

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    They could still use the double bye. The bottom 4 teams played last night. The 2 winners would play the 3&4 seeds on Saturday, those 2 winners play the 1&2 on Monday and the 2 winners play for the WCC Tournament Championship...and the auto bid, on Tuesday.
    All the teams have a chance, with a day of rest and preperation between thr first 2 games and Mondays games, the winners (and leaders) of the regular season get the double bye and all teams benefit. The WCC loses 2 games on TV, but probably not ESPN tv, just on TheW or BYU TV, so it isn't a huge loss.
    It has a better chance of 2 teams getting into the field of 68 and so more money, to encourage parity (or expensive gala events for the coaches) so the league is better off.

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    While the OP makes some valid points, my contention is that the season isn't all about the big dance. It is to many fans and media, but we're in season 3 of 4 as I look at it (1=OOC, 2=conference, 3=conference tourney and 4=big dance) and if we're to be part of a conference tournament (other than extra games view, I don't like honestly), we should have play fair and square. As Go Zags pointed out, the way the tourney is now set up is how pretty much all conference tourneys work.

    The flip side of the OP is that it gives those lower seeds, like LMU and SCU the opportunity to face a higher rated team thus boosting their RPIs.

    I personally just don't think Gonzaga is bigger than the WCC.
    Go Zags!!!

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    I agree with 28-6, we make spokane.
    Love the zags for life

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    I love the new format. I get to watch 3 Gonzaga games instead of just 2. I'm pretty sure that is why they changed it
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gozags99 View Post
    1 Seed Gonzaga and 2 Seed BYU have been rewarded (sarcasm) with opportunities to play games against Santa Clara and LMU, respectively.

    These games provide ZERO upside for both teams. Wins for Gonzaga and BYU might actually drive down their RPIs. Losses dramatically decrease odds at an at-large berth for both teams. Santa Clara has an RPI of 206, while LMU has an RPI of 179.

    Reasons why our game against Santa Clara stinks:
    RPI will go down, win or lose
    Santa Clara contested the Zags both times this season, and for some reason, they match up well against us
    Tough to beat any team three times in one season
    Santa Clara has a game under their belt in that arena and are used to rims and shooting backdrop
    Santa Clara gets a day of rest on Friday
    Santa Clara gets to play loose; with everything to gain and nothing to lose

    I surely hope that both Gonzaga and BYU win and make this a moot point, but I'm frustrated nonetheless. The top teams need to be rewarded for their regular conference season effort. At the very least, why don't they reseed so the highest remaining seed plays the top seed in the quarterfinals (i.e. Zags should be playing LMU) ???!!!???

    The WCC conference does not benefit from this format, either. Each year, the WCC has 2-3 teams with a shot at an at-large. The more teams into the dance equals more money and exposure for the conference. Why not use a structure that gives your conference the best odds to get multiple bids? I will go so far as to say that if GU did not have this game against Santa Clara, they would be in no matter what (loss to SMC in semifinal does not hurt their profile enough to be left out). For all we know, the Zags could play very well on Saturday but still lose to a Santa Clara team that goes 10-15 from three. As a fan, I do not want to be sweating out selection Sunday under this scenario. Again, hopefully the Zags continue their positive play and make this a moot point!
    Hypocritical nonsense. Oh I wish I could hear your opinion if Gonzaga was a #3 seed or below. You are a little spoiled lately but maybe one day via a down year, maybe a couple really bad injuries mid-season, maybe one day true parity in a respectable league - Gonzaga won't be the #1 or #2. Two byes is just ridiculous, one is even a little dodgy. Let them play! Your gift for winning the regular season should be a theoretically easier draw - not byes. That is too much of an advantage to warrant especially if the league had more than one or two teams worthy of March Madness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo13 View Post
    Hypocritical nonsense. Oh I wish I could hear your opinion if Gonzaga was a #3 seed or below. You are a little spoiled lately but maybe one day via a down year, maybe a couple really bad injuries mid-season, maybe one day true parity in a respectable league - Gonzaga won't be the #1 or #2. Two byes is just ridiculous, one is even a little dodgy. Let them play! Your gift for winning the regular season should be a theoretically easier draw - not byes. That is too much of an advantage to warrant especially if the league had more than one or two teams worthy of March Madness.
    But this isn't a league that routinely gets even 3 bids in the league. 3 has happened what 3 times? I think you gotta protect your higher seeds. You want the team with the best regular season to have an advantage in the postseason. That's why you play the conference regular season. I hate the expanded postseason conference tournament format. Its ridiculous. IMO.

    Remember that is just my opinion now.
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    I am fine with the new format from an objective point of view. Obviously, from a selfish point of view, I would love to see the Zags just advance to the semis.

    I don't like how SCU and LMU are getting "rewarded" with a day of rest before they face Gonzaga and BYU, but this is what happens when the men's and women's tourneys are held at the same venue. The way it works at other tournaments is that you need to win 4 games in 4 days or whatever if you're at the bottom of the barrel. In most cases, the bottom feeders run out of gas at some point. I also don't like how there is a break between the quarters and the semis. It should be between the semis and the final, but they have to work around the Sunday thing.

    The thing I am most happy about is moving the tourney to Vegas. I hope it remains there and that it never returns to league arenas. Few was completely right about that. No team who wins the league should have to play on an opponent's home floor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoZags View Post
    While I was in favor of the "double bye" into the semi's .... I believe there's a reason that no other Conference (out of the 32 who play D1 hoops) has that system. The current change went into effect because of the Bay Area California schools .... and the desire to "level" the playing field. Doesn't make sense vis a vis the points raised in the OP, but that's the deal.

    That being said, rpiforecast says if the Zags win their next 3, they'll end up with an RPI of 12. Sure, there'll only be two wins over RPI top 50 .... but it's my belief if Gonzaga is 28-6 with an RPI of 12 they'll get Spokane.
    Interesting! I had completely written off the chance of a Spokane berth. But, if the RPI really can improve all the way to #12, maybe you are right. The committee has ALWAYS rewarded teams that win both regular season and conference tournament titles. If we win big 3 straight games, combined with the final two games of the regular season (games that had a lot of eyes on them and the Zags were AWESOME) maybe, just maybe it could happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoZags View Post
    That being said, rpiforecast says if the Zags win their next 3, they'll end up with an RPI of 12. Sure, there'll only be two wins over RPI top 50 .... but it's my belief if Gonzaga is 28-6 with an RPI of 12 they'll get Spokane.
    Looks like "best case" is about #13 now, after last night's upsets. Have to hope the bracket holds serve from here on out.

    I dunno about a protected seed...maybe, maybe. It's really going to depend on how the committee looks at our 0-0 record against the top 25, I think. Just no East Coast time zone, please.

    I don't like the current format either. Top two seeds gain nothing from it, and it increases the chance of a crappy team to steal an auto bid. If the league wants to push this drek, maybe they shouldn't let teams like Santa Clara schedule an out-of-conference SOS of 324!

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    I can't see how the RPI can rise that far when we would only play one team with an RPI inside the Top 100. Even if we win out, I can't see a seed higher than a 7 which would be unlikely to secure the Spokane site. My guess is if we win out we play in San Diego.

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    The question is of the tournament. GU could be upset in the semi as will as the quarter. Having all the teams play after the league moved to ten teams is natural. The format had t change to accommodate another team and it is like most other tournament. GU is in the NCAA no matter what happens, BYU has to make to the finals, but the WCC should have two. Having a tournament, remember, is how GU continued it run in 2000 when it beat Pepperdine after finishing 2nd. Its tough when you are the big dog, but it helps. GU should be Santa Clara on a neutral court.
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    The move to Vegas was the genius answer b/c it wasn't so obvious - being in a state without a team, not on the coast. . .

    But, this is a mixed bag. I see the protection making sense, I see the TV $$ making sense - If they did not get the day of rest before seeing us, I'd probably throw my hands up saying, "whatever" but that does really bug me - and even with the women, I am positive that the same genius who thought "Vegas!" as a great answer, can find a way to ensure these quys playing in the entrance games don't get nice and rested up against the higher seeds.

    And, in terms of the conference slobbering over 3 teams in? Ok, that looks nice, but not when the three teams get their brains beat senseless in the first round - that feeds the "they shouldn't be here" thing. They should be doing all they can to ensure that the possible 2 they get in on an average year are as strongly positioned as possible. Getting a 3rd in by tearing your first two down is . . . well, typical WCC thinking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by caduceus View Post
    Looks like "best case" is about #13 now, after last night's upsets. Have to hope the bracket holds serve from here on out.

    I dunno about a protected seed...maybe, maybe. It's really going to depend on how the committee looks at our 0-0 record against the top 25, I think. Just no East Coast time zone, please.

    I don't like the current format either. Top two seeds gain nothing from it, and it increases the chance of a crappy team to steal an auto bid. If the league wants to push this drek, maybe they shouldn't let teams like Santa Clara schedule an out-of-conference SOS of 324!
    http://www.rpiforecast.com/teams/ct/Gonzaga.html

    Earlier this morning it said 12 .... And now is 12.6. Or maybe I wasn't wearing my readers at 0'Dark hundred and "thought" I saw 12.0.

    High Winning percentage, the "attempt" to schedule some good games (away at WVU ... Didn't know they wouldn't be Top 25) last 7 away from home (5 of which would be wins) .... A Top 13 Rpi and outright Regular Season and Tourney champ of the 9th highest rated conference "could" translate to Spokane. But there's one important thing right now

    Beat Santa Clara.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoZags View Post
    http://www.rpiforecast.com/teams/ct/Gonzaga.html

    Earlier this morning it said 12 .... And now is 12.6. Or maybe I wasn't wearing my readers at 0'Dark hundred and "thought" I saw 12.0.

    High Winning percentage, the "attempt" to schedule some good games (away at WVU ... Didn't know they wouldn't be Top 25) last 7 away from home (5 of which would be wins) .... A Top 13 Rpi and outright Regular Season and Tourney champ of the 9th highest rated conference "could" translate to Spokane. But there's one important thing right now

    Beat Santa Clara.
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    me personally.........the regular season winnner would get the auto bid from WCC for the body of work

    You would have the current makeup of formatted tournament as it gives a fair opportunity to all, protects the 1, 2 place winners for early round game, gives those programs opportunity to "win it all" and demonstrate why they should be in the big dance....
    Extends our playing time out, reducing the huge long layoff we saw in past years between game and BIG Dance....
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