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Thread: A trend that will likely continue from here on out

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    Default A trend that will likely continue from here on out

    Last night Pangos logged just 33 minutes. That has to be the fewest minutes he has played in a competitive basketball game in ages. As we all know, Few has been very vocal recently about the need to rest him more. This goes beyond just his turf toe injury. He needs rest or he is going to run into a brick wall like Delly did at St. Mary's last year. He's been logging too many 38 minute games.

    Stockton played 20 minutes last night. 7 of those minutes came when Pangos was on the bench getting a breather. Meanwhile, Dranginis played more minutes than Stockton did last night.

    As we move forward, I think we are going to see less and of the Pangos/Bell/Stockton trio. Not just because Pangos needs rest, and David needs to be out there to provide him that rest, but also because Gonzaga becomes a much more potent defensive team when Dranginis is out there. With his 6-5 height, long arms and foot work, Kyle is proving to be Gonzaga's most consistent defensive player along with Gary Bell.

    In a game like last night where Gonzaga couldn't hit a pea in the ocean, it was either defend or die. There will still be games where I think we will see a lot of the Pangos/Bell/Stockton trio, but I see those games as being ones where Gonzaga is playing a team that can be severely offensively exploited by having two playmakers on the floor at once. A perfect example of that was BYU on Saturday night when Pangos and Stocks just carved up BYU's matchup zone.

    Please don't take this as a knock on Stockton. It isn't. He is still a much needed and valuable player in the rotation. What this is about is role redefinition. I see Few using him differently in the future.

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    I would agree and also add that Draino fill sup the stat sheets in a quiet, effective manner and many things he does goes unnoticed...for example the tip of a rebound to coleman who got an offensive board and layup
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    I've been praying for that trend all season. Love me some stocks, but no question he hurts us defensively. I'm all in on the Pangos/Bell/KD line up. Throw in Coleman and Stocks for some minutes and we should be able to rest pangos 10 minutes a game. KD has been solid all season and needs to be on the floor.

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    The defense that the whole team played was unbelievable. Pangos, Bell, Dranginis, Barham, Stockton and Coleman all played hard. And switched on every movement. If you would have told me that Pangos, Barham, Dranginis, and Stockton would go 3 for 20, we would miss multiple more layins, and we would still win the game, I would have said no way. They all stayed in and worked their tails off. Great job, Zags. Keep up the super effort.

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    I think that Pangos' injury has as much, if not more, to do with the need for change as anything Stockton has or hasn't done. When he's 100%, Kevin is a pretty solid defender and plays the off guard position very well because he can shoot and drive with almost equal effectiveness. As it is, his limited mobility has also meant he is a half-step slower defensively and less able to penetrate and create his own shot offensively. This compounds DS's limitations and leaves the Zags a little exposed on both ends. IMO, with DS backing up Pangos primarily; and Bell/KD/Coleman rotating at the 2 and 3 position, the effect of Pangos' injury is less noticeable.

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    Yep, no doubt CDC. Good post.
    Go Zags!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by zagfan24 View Post
    I think that Pangos' injury has as much, if not more, to do with the need for change as anything Stockton has or hasn't done. When he's 100%, Kevin is a pretty solid defender and plays the off guard position very well because he can shoot and drive with almost equal effectiveness. As it is, his limited mobility has also meant he is a half-step slower defensively and less able to penetrate and create his own shot offensively. This compounds DS's limitations and leaves the Zags a little exposed on both ends. IMO, with DS backing up Pangos primarily; and Bell/KD/Coleman rotating at the 2 and 3 position, the effect of Pangos' injury is less noticeable.
    We missed an unusual number of layups or close to the basket shots-already mentioned by several folks I know.

    With half ( 3 shots) made and with 2 or 3 of their lucky shots NOT bouncing in or banking in or going
    out- we win by at least 10 last nite . Karnowski is going to have to watch his foul trouble, too. thought Karno did a good job of establishing his presence in first 10 minutes.

    Wondering why Edwards doesn't see at least 5 minutes of action? Honestly it didn't seem like Nunez brought much in his limited minutes last nite. He gives us 5 extra fouls ( not on Karno) to dole out.

    Coleman hustled and made some good plays for us. Hoping his role expands cuz he brings good energy off the bench!

    Barham had a rare off- nite-wondered if he was sick?

    Pangos does look a step slow ....Stockton still dribbles too much in my view( but loved his game vs BYU).

    Kratsch shouldn't have been doing as much damage to us as he did....Roquemore made some great shots.

    Wonder if we could try Dranginis a bit as a point forward type changeup?

    Sam showed us again why senior leadership is so important to a tourney-bound team!

    We'd better get rested up and ready for USF Saturday! They will bring it at their gym!

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    Kyle being out there at the end of the game was great. He made a simple easy play. He also had Pangos ready and he could have shot himself.

    Pride yourself on Defense but easy offense is great too.

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    I think what we saw was a desperate attempt to beat an otherwise average team with whoever could or would step up. Their second string scored 16 of the the 20+ points they scored in the first half.

    then, to win the game we got lucky.

    It's hard to take that game and make conclusions like this, as a result, imo.

    that said, KD is definitely in the future plans and SD and DS are not. I hope KD can take & keep the stat lead. He shows signs that he is ready. to the extent he keeps showing it, I see him getting more p.t. But it's not a lock.

    That game was the most disjointed one I've seen for as far back as I can remember. NO ONE on our team took charge. Leadership wasn't there. No rally. No order. No plays being called. Executed. It was a nervous mess.

    BUT. if one game is a turning point in the season, this is not it. For e.g., If anyone else should have been seated last night, in this game, it was KP. Maybe even GB for stretches, too, letting GC and maybe AN do their thing for 5-8 minutes, given we were in a hoopfest scrum against a bunch of guys who were totally familiar with the normal fare and the expected Zags. they've been banging heads for four years and knew how to play us -- as long as we didn't just kick the sh!t out of them and turn the tables.

    Adding to our team angst, We gave up 10 points at least missing bunnies. DS couldn't buy a basket but the shooters whose job it is to shoot, wouldn't hunt their shots and weren't looking to shoot, either. Way too often. None of them.

    Bunnies aside, anytime I see DS shooting, I look to see why and then look to see if a shooter was open or hunting his shot.

    What I take away from this, and what I predict we will see going forward, is the continued search for someone who will put the team on his back and lead. It very well could be KD. It could be the great, but streaky KP or GB, or it could be DS. So far, you add the games all together and KD and DS have been the most consistent producers, game to game and overall.

    So far. I don't think the history presented as the turning point has arrived. It's possible. but so are several other scenarios. It reminds me of those announcers naming Bell POG with about 4.5 minutes left in the game -- long before the game, as it turned out, was even close to actually being over.
    Go TEAM Zags !

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    Quote Originally Posted by CDC84 View Post
    Last night Pangos logged just 33 minutes. That has to be the fewest minutes he has played in a competitive basketball game in ages. As we all know, Few has been very vocal recently about the need to rest him more. This goes beyond just his turf toe injury. He needs rest or he is going to run into a brick wall like Delly did at St. Mary's last year. He's been logging too many 38 minute games.

    Stockton played 20 minutes last night. 7 of those minutes came when Pangos was on the bench getting a breather. Meanwhile, Dranginis played more minutes than Stockton did last night.

    As we move forward, I think we are going to see less and of the Pangos/Bell/Stockton trio. Not just because Pangos needs rest, and David needs to be out there to provide him that rest, but also because Gonzaga becomes a much more potent defensive team when Dranginis is out there. With his 6-5 height, long arms and foot work, Kyle is proving to be Gonzaga's most consistent defensive player along with Gary Bell.

    In a game like last night where Gonzaga couldn't hit a pea in the ocean, it was either defend or die. There will still be games where I think we will see a lot of the Pangos/Bell/Stockton trio, but I see those games as being ones where Gonzaga is playing a team that can be severely offensively exploited by having two playmakers on the floor at once. A perfect example of that was BYU on Saturday night when Pangos and Stocks just carved up BYU's matchup zone.

    Please don't take this as a knock on Stockton. It isn't. He is still a much needed and valuable player in the rotation. What this is about is role redefinition. I see Few using him differently in the future.
    Amen, Brother.


    Teams have been helping/double-teaming off of Stockton a lot lately, and although he was hitting shots against BYU, he has been Meech-like from the 3-point line much of this year. If he isn't knocking down shots, I think Few doesn't have much of a choice, unless he is happy playing 4-on-5 on the offensive end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CDC84 View Post
    Last night Pangos logged just 33 minutes. That has to be the fewest minutes he has played in a competitive basketball game in ages. As we all know, Few has been very vocal recently about the need to rest him more. This goes beyond just his turf toe injury. He needs rest or he is going to run into a brick wall like Delly did at St. Mary's last year. He's been logging too many 38 minute games.

    Stockton played 20 minutes last night. 7 of those minutes came when Pangos was on the bench getting a breather. Meanwhile, Dranginis played more minutes than Stockton did last night.

    As we move forward, I think we are going to see less and of the Pangos/Bell/Stockton trio. Not just because Pangos needs rest, and David needs to be out there to provide him that rest, but also because Gonzaga becomes a much more potent defensive team when Dranginis is out there. With his 6-5 height, long arms and foot work, Kyle is proving to be Gonzaga's most consistent defensive player along with Gary Bell.

    In a game like last night where Gonzaga couldn't hit a pea in the ocean, it was either defend or die. There will still be games where I think we will see a lot of the Pangos/Bell/Stockton trio, but I see those games as being ones where Gonzaga is playing a team that can be severely offensively exploited by having two playmakers on the floor at once. A perfect example of that was BYU on Saturday night when Pangos and Stocks just carved up BYU's matchup zone.

    Please don't take this as a knock on Stockton. It isn't. He is still a much needed and valuable player in the rotation. What this is about is role redefinition. I see Few using him differently in the future.
    I am a big fan of Stockton ...I believe players like him should be what the game of college basketball is all about. I would rather compete like the Zags do and NEVER win a national championship with Gonzaga type players than win with those that Kentucky and Louisville get ...the majority of which probably couldn't ever pass a REAL college curriculum. As much as I like DS, there are games and situations where other options are better. I believe Few has a pretty good handle on this as well, though I would LOVE to see Nunez and Coleman develop into a bigger part of the rotation ...come tourney time they might, and probably will, be needed.
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    Of course it's a huge problem when we can't hit shots in the paint.

    Shaking off the road rust moving forward is going to be key. I hope they can adjust.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zag67 View Post
    The defense that the whole team played was unbelievable. Pangos, Bell, Dranginis, Barham, Stockton and Coleman all played hard. And switched on every movement. If you would have told me that Pangos, Barham, Dranginis, and Stockton would go 3 for 20, we would miss multiple more layins, and we would still win the game, I would have said no way. They all stayed in and worked their tails off. Great job, Zags. Keep up the super effort.
    I sure hope the focus (as in a player's mental concentration) on defense isn't impacting their focus on offense. Last night it was as if a few of them just took their eye off the ball in the last ticks of a shot/play. The team won't be able to play like that very often and pull off a win. The effort was certainly there - just apparently not the concentration (TOs & missed shots). I have to say I really like this team though. They're very hard not to like - each and every one of them. It is very easy to wish them to do well and to feel badly, for them and us, when they don't happen to play at their best. The trials and tribulations of being a college bb sports fan!

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    I'm a huge Stocks fan too, I'm not a fan of the 3 small guard line up. I see no benefit and actually some downside, b/c one of those guys is playing at the expense of KD, GC or DB - who all present fewer redundant options.

    I am frustrated that Bell didn't take control earlier - - and a little later, but his defense, which I watched particularly, is just too good to leave out for long.

    Good points made in thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDC84 View Post
    Last night Pangos logged just 33 minutes. That has to be the fewest minutes he has played in a competitive basketball game in ages. As we all know, Few has been very vocal recently about the need to rest him more. This goes beyond just his turf toe injury. He needs rest or he is going to run into a brick wall like Delly did at St. Mary's last year. He's been logging too many 38 minute games.

    Stockton played 20 minutes last night. 7 of those minutes came when Pangos was on the bench getting a breather. Meanwhile, Dranginis played more minutes than Stockton did last night.

    As we move forward, I think we are going to see less and of the Pangos/Bell/Stockton trio. Not just because Pangos needs rest, and David needs to be out there to provide him that rest, but also because Gonzaga becomes a much more potent defensive team when Dranginis is out there. With his 6-5 height, long arms and foot work, Kyle is proving to be Gonzaga's most consistent defensive player along with Gary Bell.

    In a game like last night where Gonzaga couldn't hit a pea in the ocean, it was either defend or die. There will still be games where I think we will see a lot of the Pangos/Bell/Stockton trio, but I see those games as being ones where Gonzaga is playing a team that can be severely offensively exploited by having two playmakers on the floor at once. A perfect example of that was BYU on Saturday night when Pangos and Stocks just carved up BYU's matchup zone.

    Please don't take this as a knock on Stockton. It isn't. He is still a much needed and valuable player in the rotation. What this is about is role redefinition. I see Few using him differently in the future.

    Yep, very good post.

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    Last nights game was more the result of SD defense than a bad night by GU. They did the same thing tonight against SMC and won. The difference between GU and SMC playing SD was they handled Waldo and took him out of the game. They could not do that with Shem and that was the difference for the GU win and the SMC loss. SD was extending the defense out to not allow the 3, all night Billy kept yelling to move out and not allow 3's. It worked to perfection as SMC 3 pointers looked just like GU.
    What surprised me is how well they cut off the SMC drives with them all being extended. I need to go back and look at how they were cutting off drives, considering the center focus as well as stopping the 3.
    Billy had a great game plane for both GU and SMC. They will be a nightmare at tournament time.
    Last edited by Baseline; 01-30-2014 at 10:48 PM. Reason: spelling
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    Make no mistake, Pangos was limited in his playing time because he was flat out cold, he was defended exceptionally well and one could argue he was pressing a little too much to score one-on-one. If he makes a few more of those shots, not most, he plays as many minutes as other games, given how well the rest of the zags were defended. Few does want to rest him, but the trend will not be 33 minutes -likely something only slightly less than his avg.

    Regarding the others, do not forget Few plays matchups as much as anyone. The lineup is going to change and minutes played are not going to be predictable by any stretch.

    Regarding Nunez, if he does not begin to make serious improvements in his understanding of the offense, where he needs to be, spacing and his defense....particularly as a one part of a group working as a single unit, then his playing time will continue to be minimal as long as Dower and Karno are healthy and stay out of foul trouble. Even then, he is going to be limited. His upside is great and playing time is a double edged sword, but he attends practice like the rest and Few plays base on improvements in practice as well as games. The wish list for me is for Nunez to develop a back to the rim set of moves - jump hooks, pump fakes, quick passes to the perimeter for 3s. And then an occasional three himself would not be bad. When an athletic player without a feel for the game is struggling, put him within 5 feet of the rim and teach him to knock shoulders for shots and more importantly, rebounds, IMO.
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    Frankly I am not sure why it took the coaches so long to figure this out, except for Few's loyalty to seniors.

    In the Wichita State game when KD was in the Zags were rolling and looked to be in complete control at that point. KD's length helped immensely on the perimeter D. Inexplicably Few subbed in DS for KD, and next thing you know Wichita State started hitting 3 pointers again, and we all know the result of that game. I still wonder if he had simply left KD in longer or put him back in later if it would have given the Zags the W.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagaholic View Post
    Frankly I am not sure why it took the coaches so long to figure this out, except for Few's loyalty to seniors.

    In the Wichita State game when KD was in the Zags were rolling and looked to be in complete control at that point. KD's length helped immensely on the perimeter D. Inexplicably Few subbed in DS for KD, and next thing you know Wichita State started hitting 3 pointers again, and we all know the result of that game. I still wonder if he had simply left KD in longer or put him back in later if it would have given the Zags the W.
    They wouldn't have hit all those three's if Gary didn't go out with injury
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    Frankly I am not sure why it took the coaches so long to figure this out, except for Few's loyalty to seniors.
    Few probably has as much faith in Pangos as any player he's ever coached. He trusts him a great deal. I think it's really, really hard for him to take him out of the game, even if he knows that it'll make him more effective in the long term.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzagafan62 View Post
    They wouldn't have hit all those three's if Gary didn't go out with injury
    I went back and looked at the play by play for the WS game on gozags.com, and it jibes with my memory. Bell's injury, while significant, didn't necessarily cost the game (although it sure didn't help).

    At the 18:29 time in 2nd half KD subbed in, and the score was WS 36, GU 32.

    KD subbed out at 10:57 and it was 49-45 in favor of GU. That is an 8 point swing over 7 1/2 minutes of game time. KD didn't get back into the game until there were only 13 seconds left, and GU was down by 6.

    Now maybe this is too simplistic but I think having KD in more towards the end may have thrown them off just enough. And had Bell been available that would have compensated for KD's length not being on the floor. But instead Few played DS and Barham throughout much of the last 10 minutes, with Hart splitting time with Barham.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CDC84 View Post
    Few probably has as much faith in Pangos as any player he's ever coached. He trusts him a great deal. I think it's really, really hard for him to take him out of the game, even if he knows that it'll make him more effective in the long term.
    Don't me get wrong, I love Pangos and I wasn't referring to him. I simply feel KD should be playing more than DS at this point into the season. I love Stockton's game in short spurts but he has a tendency to completely lose his man on D every once in a while, and his gambling on D seems to hurt just as much as it helps.

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    [QUOTE=Zagaholic;977237]Frankly I am not sure why it took the coaches so long to figure this out, except for Few's loyalty to seniors. /QUOTE]

    This. It's been a critique on Few for years. Right or wrong he always seems to defer to seniority - perhaps for experience? There's just no way he sits DS any more at this point. It's too bad because DS coming in for spurts and energy would be awesome for this team - he's the player that could change the tempo of a game.

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    Anybody know why Meikle is not seeing any playing time? Seems to me he performed pretty well when he was in there earlier in the season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wnczagfan View Post
    Anybody know why Meikle is not seeing any playing time? Seems to me he performed pretty well when he was in there earlier in the season.
    I think this may be more of a math problem than anything else. Who's minutes does he take?

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